March 28, 2013 4:02 am at 4:02 am #608791
I used a new hagadda (the rav pam one) this year, and decided that instead of just saying over what it says, I could just make up my own stuff and pretend that it said it.
So I did.
After kiddush, I said that the Gra used to say the bracha of havdalla even during the week because of the line of being mavdil bein yisroel l’amim, since pesach is when that happened.
And then I of course repeated it again the second night.March 28, 2013 4:04 am at 4:04 am #941379chez11Member
Why are you telling us this?March 28, 2013 4:05 am at 4:05 am #941380ItcheSrulikMember
Thanks to you when my kids are in school, they’ll be told this story as if it were true. All because of some ibberchochom and his audience who didn’t get the joke.March 28, 2013 4:15 am at 4:15 am #941381Torah613TorahParticipant
But it doesn’t make sense.
I also don’t get why when we said Havdala tonight it was ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? since it’s not Shabbos.March 28, 2013 6:06 am at 6:06 am #941382☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Whether tonight involved that specific havdallah is not the point; it is a significant havdallah to mention, just as is bein Yisroel l’amim and bein or l’choshech.March 28, 2013 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #941383Torah613TorahParticipant
Thank you DY.March 28, 2013 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #941384
I said that why does it say ??? ??? ???? ??? etc.; It should say ??? ??? ???? ???.
So the baalei mussar say that it is because everyone thinks they are the chochom. (Echod is chochom, and the same echod is really the rasha, or tam, or sheino yodeah though.)
But Rav Pam said that it is because they are all the same person–and depending on his choices, he will be any of those 4.
But I made it all up.March 28, 2013 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #941385yeshivaguy45Participant
PBA, The Slonimer Rebbe says similiar to your vort. He says sometimes we act like the Chacham, sometimes we act like the Rasha, sometimes we act like the Tam, and sometimes we act like the Sheaino Yodea Lishol. Whichever son you’re acting like, Hashem always wants to have a connection with you. That’s why we say Baruch HamakomMarch 29, 2013 1:30 am at 1:30 am #941386yoyaMember
when I clicked on your name I was brought to a link on kosher haircutting guide???March 29, 2013 1:44 am at 1:44 am #941387☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Yoya, yes. I know some of the people involved in that project. This is my small way of “contributing” to the project, which was done completely l’sheim shamayim to increase awareness of hilchos payos, and Y.W. Editor and moderators have been very kind to allow the link to remain.March 29, 2013 2:33 am at 2:33 am #941388WiseyParticipant
Maybe the reason it says “??? ??? ???? ??? …” is to tell you that even if you have all these different types of children you should look at each one as an “???”. Each one of the 4 sons requires his own method of chinuch and special attention as if he is an only child.March 29, 2013 2:42 am at 2:42 am #941389Sam2Participant
PBA: That might actually be called being Megaleh Panim Batorah Shelo Kihalachah. If this story is true, you might want to stop doing that.March 29, 2013 3:25 am at 3:25 am #941390BronyParticipant
psh, you doods ar amateurs. i pretend my hagada doesn’t have commentary so i can keep my made up gems to myself.March 29, 2013 4:29 am at 4:29 am #941391The Kanoi Next DoorMember
“I said that why does it say ??? ??? ???? ??? etc.; It should say ??? ??? ???? ???.”
I have R’ Elyashiv’s Haggadah, and it has the girsa Echad Chacham vi’Lapid Rasha.
Sam2: In case you haven’t recently, click on popa’s username.March 29, 2013 6:00 am at 6:00 am #941392playtimeMember
I love this thread. Its one of the funniest ever!March 29, 2013 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #941393
Sam: You really think so? My family knew I was kidding (a couple minutes after each one).April 5, 2017 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1251557
BumpApril 5, 2017 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1251583
I wish the ???’s could be fixed. It’s kind of annoying to read posts that have all these ???????s instead of words????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????April 5, 2017 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1251668golferParticipant
Glad you said that!
I hope someone’s listening!
Of all the bugs in the new system, this one is hardest for me to figure out.
A coffee room that doesn’t know aleph beis?
Chadesh yameinu k’kedem!April 5, 2017 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1251676zaltzvasserParticipant
???, ???!April 6, 2017 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1251719IssacZoooss96Participant
I got a psak from my trusted Rabbi, Rabbi Chaim Minner of Mishniss that it’s okay to make up divrei torah as long as it makes the children ask!April 6, 2017 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1251755
I was once flicking through the Sdei Chemed, and I saw he brings down (think it was ערך שקר) from the מגן אברהם that if you think something [in Torah] is true and you are trying to persuade someone else to the validity of your statement, you may lie and give a source which doesn’t exist.
I wonder if the מגן אברהם actually said that, or if the Sdei Chemed made it up himself.
I suppose I could be making up the Sdei Chemed too.April 8, 2017 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1252848
You could only be doing that if you think it’s true, and you would only think it’s true if you knew for sure that there was a reliable source, but you either forgot what it is or for some reason you didn’t want to give the real source.
Plus I would assume that it’s only permitted in a situation in which you feel that it’s really important to convince someone of this truth. For example, if people are being mevazeh Talmidei Chachamim and you know that according to the Torah that’s a terrible thing to do but you don’t have the source off-hand, and it is important to speak out right away.
I can’t imagine this would fall in that category, so I would find it hard to believe that you made this up. If you knew this was true but didn’t remember the source, you would have just said so.
In any case, it’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing.April 9, 2017 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1253419
Plus I would assume that it’s only permitted in a situation in which you feel that it’s really important to convince someone of this truth.
I think he says it in relevance to Limmud Hatorah as well – if you are arguing over a sugya and you are convinced of the validity of your claim (which can often happen without an explicit source), you any lie and pretend to have seen it somewhere else. I haven’t seen it for some time, I’ll bli neder look it up.April 12, 2017 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1253615
I don’t get that. It doesn’t make sense to me. I would love to see the source. Thanks!April 12, 2017 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1253616
It just doesn’t jive with other things I’ve heard although I don’t have a source, and I can’t make one up because that would definitely be hypocritical 🙂April 12, 2017 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1253625April 12, 2017 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1253711147Participant
Still made all 4 cups before Chatzos both nites, in compliance with the Remo.April 13, 2017 6:11 am at 6:11 am #1253779
Yekke – thanks so much for the source.
I read the beginning and he’s talking about a halacha that the person will (only) accept if he gives a source. That’s very different than what I thought you were talking about.
Also, he doesn’t say to give a (incorrect) source per se’; he says to say it in the name of an “אדם גדול”. When you said to give an incorrect source, I thought you meant a written source from earlier generations. Being תולה something on an “אדם גדול” does not sound like the same thing to me.
I would read the rest, but I find it hard to read sources online, and I have to check if I’m allowed to print it out on chol hamoed.
Is there anything later on that’s relevant to this discussion?April 13, 2017 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1253802
I think he says explicitly that you can quote someone by name. He brings examples from Amoiroim (R’ Papa bsheim Rava?) who bent the truth when quoting other Amoiroim who never said such a thing.April 13, 2017 9:15 am at 9:15 am #1253808
k, thanks, I’ll have to read the rest. I still think that’s different than quoting a written source.
Amongst other things, it would be much more difficult (if not impossible) for someone to find out that you “bent the truth”. Quoting a written source would be a really bad idea, imho.
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