Malach Of Cholent

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  • #619229

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I heard this past shabbos that there is a malach of cholent and the Kretchnif Rebbe’s grandfather writes in his sefer called Raza Dishabsa that this is the reason the shofar is not blown if Rosh Hashana falls on a shabbos. He claims the Malach of the shofar and malach of cholent are one and the same and he is unable to focus on 2 jobs at the same time.

    So am I missing out on not eating cholent? Is it a problem if I do not like cholent and the malach doesn’t visit me? Can I be zoche to get a visit from him through my neighbor or friend? Will that fufill my chiyuv?

    #1216320

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Blow Shofar

    #1216321

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    So if you don’t blow the shofar can you fulfill it by eating cholent?

    #1216322

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    And here I thought that the shofar was not blown on shabbos because of the possibility of violating the issur of tiltul. Silly me.

    What does this malach of chulent do? watch it so it doesn’t burn? make sure it is eaten? Add special spices so it tastes good? Heal those who eat it and get heartburn? For that matter, what does the malach of shofar do?

    #1216323

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    You should try to make sure you eat something hot on Shabbos, but it doesn’t have to be chulent. It can be a drink of tea or coffee.

    Sephardim (or at least some of them) don’t eat chulent – they eat something else, but I forgot what it’s called.

    #1216324

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU

    Sephardim eat chamin, which is chulent

    #1216325

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I have little patience for this sort of drivel.

    I must assume that either the source was completely misunderstood, or it was intended as the ????? ???????? before the ?????.

    How did the Malach manage his responsibilities before ??? came along?

    There is no reason to canonize as ???? ????? those trappings of Jewish life which are not actually part of ???? ?????. In fact, this is a dangerous practice, which is liable to cause people to question the entirety of Judaism. [This is beside the point that such statements are often the antithesis of ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????.]

    Cholent is a wonderful thing, but let’s not invest it with more importance than it actually has.

    #1216326

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What does this malach of chulent do?

    He blows on it to make sure it doesn’t burn. He’s “The Bluzener Malach”.

    Please, nobody take this whole thing too seriously.

    #1216327

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD -thank you, it could be that there are Sephardim who eat chulent, but I was talking about something else.

    I once met 2 Masorati Israelis in a store in Lakewood who were really excited because they found the food they were looking for. I had never heard of it before (and I can’t remember what it’s called), so they explained to me that it’s a food that is kept hot over Shabbos just like chulent is.

    I was very impressed that they were that religious that they kept hilchos bishul even though they weren’t so Frum in other ways. But I don’t remember what the food was called.

    #1216328

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY +1

    #1216329

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Dafina, Adafina, Schenna, Hamin(m), or Chamim?

    #1216330

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Jewish “ma’achalim”, especially Shabbos’dig ones have a mekor, and should not be done with offhandedly. There’s a lot on this subject, don’t have the time now. But it’s not going to do any good mocking or poking fun at a part of mesorah.

    #1216331

    golfer
    Participant

    Thank you, DY, for trying to inject a bit of sanity into a discussion that is going nowhere fast.

    #1216332

    golfer
    Participant

    LF, I don’t see anyone here mocking or poking fun at Mesorah.

    However, there is sometimes a fine line between avoiding the mocking of mesorah and avoiding its distortion.

    There is no need to elaborate on our desire not to allow Mesorah to be mocked.

    Distortion of Mesorah is what I want to talk about. It’s unfortunately rampant and a huge problem.

    There are true Minhagim. Then there are stories people misunderstand and pass on saying “I heard…”, “I saw…”, “someone told me…”, which turn into a mockery of our true Mesorah, often standing real Minhagim (and even real Halacha) on their heads.

    I heard a vort on Megillas Esther said originally as a “Purim Torah” (obvious milsa d’bdichasa”) being told as genuine dvar Torah! No, the person saying it was not drunk. She was a well-intentioned mechaneches, who was not familiar with the whole idea of “Purim Torah” and was sweetly relaying a Vort she heard. It might sound funny but in reality, if you allow yourself to think about it, it’s tragic.

    Yeridas Hadoros is a fact, but it’s a fact that we fight against and try to minimize as much as possible. We want to pass on the Mesorah intact and unblemished, without any alternative facts clouding and obscuring it.

    #1216333

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Golfer, I’m not saying anyone did. I’m just saying that maybe someone will come up and say something to the effect that cholent is not important, was never important, doesn’t make any sense or anything else.. It IS a minhag Yisroel. And I advise one to tread carfully before doing away with minhagim. Like you said – REAL minhagim.

    Regarding the issue at hand, there’s the famous story of (I think) R. Simcha Wasserman, who insisted a Shabbos Bar-Mitzvah menu include cholent. There’s a continuation to that story…

    #1216334

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    My 12th grade Rebbe actually told me this too! We used to make a cholent in the dorm for Friday night every week, and weren’t sure about doing it on Rosh Hashanah. We asked him, and he told us this, and said the malach needed to do his job, so we should make a cholent.

    #1216335

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks ZD ~ Just realized that you responded to LU’s comment about what Sephardim eat on Shabbat 🙂

    #1216336

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    If I don’t make chulent or a chamim-equivalent, then do I let down the Malach of Cholent?

    #1216337

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – do you know what I’m talking about (the Sephardi equivalent of chulent)?

    To answer your question, personally I would be more concerned about halacha. As far as I understand, according to halacha, you should be fine as long as you have something hot. You can be yotzei with a cup of tea or coffee.

    I’m not sure if it’s an absolute halacha that you HAVE to have something hot altogether. I have heard different things, and never looked into it.

    But it is certainly a strong inyan if it’s not an absolute halacha. (and it may even be halacha).

    #1216339

    catch yourself
    Participant

    It is an absolute Halacha that you need to consume something hot during the daytime on Shabbos. This is a Chiyuv established by the Chachamim to counter the Tzedukim who believed that it is assur to eat hot food on Shabbos day.

    Cholent is not part of our Mesorah.

    It began in times of abject poverty as the cheapest way of fulfilling the Halacha of eating hot food, as well as the Halacha of eating something fleishig (throw in one bone, and everyone gets some beans, barley, and potatoes).

    Currently, cholent holds cultural status as something “we do,” but that’s all it is.

    Maybe it’s obvious to some that this whole thread is a joke; I certainly consider it so. However, the fact is that we should never joke about our Mesorah – it is the single most important part of Judaism.

    #1216340

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    OP was not a joke, but it’s possible its a misinterpretation. I’m not sure. I just heard it and related it here. I never said I actually beleived it

    #1216341

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Just to let everyone here know-I hate cholent.

    #1216342

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Shopping – It’s possible that there could be something to it (no idea- never heard such a thing before), but IF there is, it’s some kind of kabbalistic concept with a much deeper meaning, and not meant to be taken in any kind of literal way. And not something that we should be concerning ourselves with, especially if we have no idea what the deeper meaning is and are unlikely to ever understand it. AND we don’t even have a source and have no clue if there’s even any truth to it.

    At least that’s how it seems to me, but I could be wrong.

    #1216343

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Just to let everyone here know-I hate cholent”

    That’s fine – Hashem loves you just as much. And you can still become the Gadol Hador even without eating cholent. Or the wife of the Gadol Hador or the mother of the Gadol Hador.

    #1216344

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Shopping: Still there’s an especial inyan to partake, however small portion and say lkovod Shabbos Kodash. It’s a special food prepared in honor of the Shabbos, it’s prepared with a certain holiness.. a small taste won’t do harm.. Many sefarim talk about it.

    #1216345

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A food is not holy if you dont like it, Its disgusting. there is no inyan to eat something you find disgusting

    I cant stand chopped liver or Gefilte Fish, I find it very replusive.

    Someone here once posted that Gefilte Fish had a taam of Shabbos and Sushi was just fancy fish, I dont know where he got it or just made it up

    #1216346

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Also one is not supposed to say a bracha on food that disgusts him/her

    #1216347

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Sushi is not a Shabbos food because it’s only good fresh and you can’t cook on Shabbos.

    #1216348

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LU, I don’t know the Sephardic hot Shabbos dish personally, just from Google searches for this thread.

    I didn’t know about the hot food on Shabbos chiyuv. Thank you for letting me know <3

    #1216349

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    ” The Chayei Adam 39:1 writes that the melacha of boneh (building) applies to food as well, and that attaching foods together to produce a desired picture or shape, is included in this prohibition.

    from the OU… does that mean that one can close his/her eyes and make sloppy sushi on Shabbos?

    Why is non-fresh sushi less tasty? I’ve never taste-tested the difference. And usually the non-fresh kind that I’ve purchased was inexpensive. The rice gets kind of hard.

    But maybe storing fresh sushi for a day isn’t so bad. For someone who never eats sushi during the week and really enjoys it, maybe it’s a special Shabbos treat?

    #1216350

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Googled Shabbat sushi and a Chabad House had an ad for their Shabbat sushi night.

    #1216351

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are several kinds of Sushi, The fish isnt the problem its the rice, there are Sushi that you eat just the fish and no rice.

    The point here is not Sushi vs Gefilte, In fact I know people who hate any kind of fish, the point here is not to claim you must eat a certain food “L’Kavod Shabbos” if you find it digusting. No normal Rav is going to tell you to eat it anyway because they should be smart enough to realize eating something you cant stand most likely wont get you to like it, but you will likely become repulsed even more from it (and perhaps shabbos in general if you associate shabbos with food you hate)

    #1216352

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    ZD that’s a good point. Association b/w Shabbos and food one hates could lead to disgust of Shabbos.

    I feel that way about being pressured to eat certain foods on certain Yom Tovim. I’ve ended up getting sick after and then felt resentful for just having “a little.” The people telling me to have a little for the mitzvah aren’t in my body and reality and don’t have a right to judge my doctors either.

    I know that Hashem makes miracles but He didn’t end up making the food suddenly okay (and even I felt convinced that this time a little won’t hurt because it is a “mitzvah” and Hashem would cure me for this special occasion). After I felt resentful to the host who did not respect my boundaries as well. I didn’t want to go back.

    But ultimately I was the one who listened and put the food in my mouth and I had to learn to say No.

    Which is still hard at times when everyone is eating and telling you to just try or have a little because it’s chiyuv.

    #1216353

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    ZD: If you’re just eating the fish, without rice, then it isn’t sushi. “Sushi” actually refers to a type of vinegared rice, served with additional ingredients. If you’re having just the fish, without the rice, it’s usually called sashimi.

    #1216354

    golfer
    Participant

    Lightb, the only time you have to eat for the Mitzvah is when you have to eat for the Mitzvah. And in that case you have to eat a specific amount, not just taste a little. As in Hamotzi at the Shabbos seuda. As in Matzah and Maror on Pesach (no wrinkling your nose and saying it doesn’t appeal), and arba kosos if we’re including drinking as well as eating. As in any food at all on Erev Y”K.

    There are other foods that are a good idea, like the fruit you no doubt just ate on 15 Shvat, and the fried foods you may have indulged in on Chanukah, but there’s no need to make yourself sick.

    I do miss the gefilte fish threads though.

    Sushi inspired threads just aren’t the same…

    #1216355

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Without getting into details, I actually cannot eat alot of food at once and need to take decent sized breaks between meals. I also need to somewhat eat smaller portions. I rarely eat dessert for this reason

    This time of year especially the break isnt long enough between Lunch and Shalosh Seudos, so I dont usually eat Shalosh Seudos (Dont tell me its a Mitzvah, Its no Mitzvah to get violently ill which is what happens, I generally cannot eat another meal if I end at about 2, until about 6 or 7)

    #1216356

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    golfer, one example was matzah.

    Twas very unpleasant and I ate just a little (but enough for the mitzvah) spelt matzah because I was told that it was likely okay and I must do it if I wanted to participate in the mitzvot of Pesach.

    I’m really lucky because a rabbi later didn’t force me to eat challah at his Shabbos table and that was super nice.

    #1216357

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “so I dont usually eat Shalosh Seudos (Dont tell me its a Mitzvah, Its no Mitzvah to get violently ill”

    I’m not a Poseik, but that sounds reasonable to me. I think this would qualify as a case where you can be yotzei with Divrei Torah (b’dieved, one can be somech on Divrei Torah for Shalosh Seudos).

    You really can’t eat anything at all for 4 or 5 hours? That must be so hard! In terms of Shalosh Seudos, is it possible to end the Day Seudah earlier, or is that impossible?

    Or you can do what a friend of mine used to do in the winter – her husband went to Vasikin and then they had breakfast with Kiddush and Hamotzi, so lunch was technically Shalushudos. But I don’t know if Vasikin is an option for you. Even if not, is it possible for you to make kiddush and hamotzi when you come home from Shul, then bentch, and then go for a walk and come home and wash again?

    I’m not trying to tell you what to do – maybe you thought of these options already. I was just thinking of ideas since you brought up the issue. But maybe none of these is a reasonable option for you.

    #1216358

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its the Acid Reflux, Its not something deadly, you just learn how to eat with it. You learn to eat less and avoid certain foods that trigger it.

    Certain very acidic foods are really bad and I try to avoid. Potato chips are a favorite of mine that I really cannot eat anymore. Chocolate is really bad and I dont eat it anymore.

    Alot of the foods served at Shalosh Seudos fall into those foods that trigger it.

    Friday night after a soup I need to wait a couple of hours before eating any other food.

    As long as you know these things its not really a big deal

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