March 12, 2017 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #619458
Serious question please:
Is my neshama affected if I hang my women clothes on men’s hangers and/or hand-me-down hangers?
Back in the day, maybe there were unspecified hangers. Nowadays, some hangers are broader to fit the generally broader man’s frame.
Also, some clothes come on hangers and stores give them to you. So even if they look just like the opposite gender’s hanger, they were originally designated for a specific gender of which the item of clothing was sold attached to the hanger.
Thank youMarch 12, 2017 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1228489Moshe1994Participant
Purim question, or serious?March 12, 2017 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1228490rebshidduchParticipant
This is a Purim question, I am assuming?March 12, 2017 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1228491
Serious question.March 12, 2017 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #1228492
If our clothes have special energy, then why don’t our hangers?
A few months ago I gave away my comfy hoodie sweatshirt because it was a man’s sweatshirt. I only wore it at home. I was doing a tznius experiment to see how it feels to only wear women/girl’s clothing.
Today I was putting away laundry and realized that some of my hangers were used for men’s clothing.
Is there a lingering effect?March 13, 2017 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1228493Moshe1994Participant
Question, do you use a separate washing machine for men/women’s clothing?
Answer: Probably not, the same idea applies to hangars, there is no special energy on them, ie. they are used by both genders with no problem.March 13, 2017 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1228494
Moshe1994: Good point.
At the same time, one could say that the water cleanses them and thus it is different.
After the clothes are dry, must the clothes be separated by gender? Can you just keep it all piled together at home?
Can a husband and wife share an undivided clothing drawer?March 13, 2017 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1228495
Also, is there no difference what clothes one washes with what?
Like can a tzitzit be washed with all types of women’s clothing? and how about washing it with little children’s dirty socks?
Or is there a preferable order? To have loads sorted beyond colors and whites may be a lot lot lot more work. Wondering if there is any Torah on the spiritual affect of such things.
Then again, not freaking out on details also has a spiritual affect that may compensate for any perceived gain by abiding by hanger-Torah (if there is such a thing).March 13, 2017 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1228496
If this is not Purim Torah you clearly have too much time on your handsMarch 13, 2017 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1228497
I want to ask my LOR. You really don’t think about this stuff?
My rabbi told us how there is even a “Jewish way” to bathe oneself. Head first and one side before the other. I don’t know all of the details.
I wonder if you learned this and it’s so natural that the question sounds crazy but there is a spiritual system nonetheless.
Okay the end then … future posts welcomeMarch 13, 2017 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1228498
Lesschumras – that’s not a helpful comment. She is learning about Yiddishkeit – cut her some slack please. So many things about Yiddishkeit sound crazy if you never heard of them before, so why should she think these are crazy questions?
And if you do feel it’s necessary to say something, at least say it politely.March 13, 2017 2:28 am at 2:28 am #1228499feivelParticipant
lightbrite. it is clear to me you have a very sensitive spirit. and a very open and accepting mind.
nowadays our understanding and sensitivity to the higher spiritual world has been deadened and hidden. trying to grasp it is trying to grasp Hashem. dont let the Yetzer Ha Rah stop you.March 13, 2017 3:42 am at 3:42 am #1228500
Feivel +1 That was really nice!March 13, 2017 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1228501NechomahParticipant
I think that clothes do not have their own inherent energy, but rather they obtain their energy from the person who is wearing them. For example, a top can be long-sleeved and high-necked, and on one person it can be tznius (let’s say they are thin) and on another it can be not tznius at all because they are heavier and it fits them tightly, so the energy has changed depending on the person wearing the clothes.
Another thought I had is that Shabbos has kedusha and we need to tap into that kedusha that exists. Yom Tov, has a different kedusha, and we as people add to that kedusha. I heard in a shiur that by eating special food and wearing special clothes, we add to the kedusha of Yom Tov. Now for one person, a particular outfit might be something that they would wear on the weekday, especially if they have a job that requires professional dress, but for another person, say someone in school or who does not work, then the same clothes might be appropriate for them for Yom Tov.
I do not think that the clothes off the person keep their energy nor can they convey energy to the hangers on which they hang or the drawers in which they sit.
I do think Feivel’s post was very special and I hope LB gets a lot of chizuk from it; however, please do not get lost in issues on the fringe. There is so much kedusha that can be obtained from the regular things we are doing in our lives but it can be overwhelming if you add too many esoteric issues before you have assimilated within yourself the major issues. There is a wonderful series about the 6 Constant Mitzvos that was given over by R’ Noach Weinberg, ztz”l, from Aish HaTorah. His wife would discuss the issue of women who want to put on tefillin and things like that. She would say that if a woman knew how much there was to do just by keeping the mitzvos she HAS to keep, she wouldn’t have time to deal with those ones that she wants to keep but has no chiyuv in.March 13, 2017 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1228502WinnieThePoohParticipant
Actual clothes-related mitzvas: (feel free to add to the list if I left anything out.) Disclaimer- one should of course ask one’s LOR how to apply these.
1. not allowed to wear shaatnez, a mixture of wool and linen. Items made of wool would therefore need to be checked to make sure they do not have linen threads or linings etc. There are some clothing that are more prone to shaatnez problems and need checking before wearing. Some manufacturers use scraps to finish off clothing that may be problematic.
2. the most obvious, clothing should meet tznius standards
3. women do not wear men’s clothing and vice versa. This applies to also non-clothing, such as accessories and grooming behaviors, some examples that come to mind: women do not carry weapons, men do not dye their hair or wear wigs. (I don’t know what English barristers did if they were frum, perhaps in those times wigs were considered men’s items)
4. special clothing are worn for shabbos and yom tov
5. a mourner tears his clothing at the funeral, and does not change his clothing during the week of mourning. One does not buy/wear new clothing during the month/year of mourning.
6. One does not wash clothing or wear freshly washed clothing during the 9 days before 9 B’Av (due to mourning).
7. One does not do laundry during chol hamoed. exceptions for 6 and 7 are for small children who need constant changing.
8. During the period of mourning between Pesach and Shavous (popularly known as sefira), one does not wear new clothing that would require a bracha of sheheheyanu- generally said on items that are purchased infrequently that bring special delight when worn.
9. Kittle (white robe-like thing) is worn by men at Seder and on Yom Kippur, some also on Rosh Hashana.
10. Tradition to wear white on Yom Kippur, to resemble angels. see 9.
11. we don’t wear leather shoes on Yom Kippur or 9 B’Av
12. Men if wearing a garment with 4 corners, need to put tzitzis on the corners. It is accepted to purposely wear such a garment to fulfill the mitzva.
Anything else. It’s amazing how many mitzvas/minhagim there are with clothing!March 13, 2017 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1228503
LU, LB is obviously sincere but also quite naive. You can’t accept and and treat every minhag and old wives tale the same. From what I’ve seen, to her every word of every Rav must be believed as halacha mSenai. Somewhere and somehow she has to develop the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. Utter naivete can be as ultimately problematic as utter cynicismMarch 13, 2017 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1228504MenoParticipant
Can you have male and female hangers in the same closet? Would it make a difference if there were a mechitza?March 13, 2017 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1228507yytzParticipant
lesschumras’ posts in this thread should be deleted, since they are insults. Would a comment like “[Commenter X] is a jerk!” be approved?
That is not what his post says and no, such a post would not have been approved. Being naive, as in underexposed, is hardly an insult.March 13, 2017 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1228508apushatayidParticipant
“there is even a “Jewish way” to bathe oneself.”
Its called soap and shampoo. Just make sure to use the gender appropriate soap and shampoo.March 13, 2017 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1228509
(If this supposed to be purim leitzunus)
you surely will be affected
For penance, use only gender specific shampoo for 9 monthsMarch 13, 2017 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1228510yytzParticipant
What? Telling someone to “get a life” is not an insult? That’s pure negativity.
Thank you for clarifying which post.March 13, 2017 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1228511
apushatayid: Maybe you didn’t know that there is a Jewish way to bathe.
Do you at least put your right shoe on before your left? And if they are laced shoes, do you tie the left before the right?
If you bought your kosher food at a wholesale store, would you pack your kosher cheese in a Spam box, and shove that into your car?
It’s just cardboard like any cardboard and not actually tainted. I don’t know about you, but I am picky about even what boxes I take home and use to pack other’s items.
Also, why is it understandable that some women won’t wear wigs from hair of alleged idol worshipers? Does the hair not lose any spiritual energy after being cut from its source, processed, and sewn into a wig by someone else?March 13, 2017 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1228512
It’s okay lesschumras.
Have you ever put together a puzzle? If so, do you start at the edges and then fill in the center pieces?
It sounds like that is what you’re asking me to do here. Think about the big picture, the tenants of Yiddishkeit, and then the inside of the box is not so important.
The thing is that I look at what I see as the end result of taking on those tenants, or the frame of Yiddishkeit, as sometimes suffocating and other times beyond my reality’s practicality. When I go there, I stay stuck.
I learned how to move by working within the center. I am strengthening from the core by choosing details that are right in front of me. Connecting the pieces from here.
For someone who already has all of the other things going on, this may seem frivolous. To me, there is great meaning in these pieces, like dots. Connecting the dots. In time, there will be a picture, even when it looks like just dots from here.
While I can see links, you may be unable to see them without my blueprint.
You can call me naive, or you can call me novel.
Or just call me lightbrite.March 13, 2017 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1228513
LB, ultimately you are correct in that you have to follow the path that works for you. Just keep in mind that concepts like male and female hangers, while they work for you, can be sources of humor for others.March 13, 2017 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #1228514
Lesschumras: “LU, LB is obviously sincere but also quite naive. You can’t accept and and treat every minhag and old wives tale the same. From what I’ve seen, to her every word of every Rav must be believed as halacha mSenai. Somewhere and somehow she has to develop the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. Utter naivete can be as ultimately problematic as utter cynicism”
True, and I don’t think anyone would disagree with you on what you wrote in this post. The problem was the way it was phrased in the original post. This is much better, I think (although we can let LB be the judge of that).
At the same time though, try to keep in mind that it’s not so simple l’maaseh. She is a beginner and she is trying to figure things out and Judaism is confusing. And while everyone keeps telling her she needs a Rav or that she shouldn’t believe what everyone tells her, she has to first figure out who that Rav should be and what hashkafa he should have, and she can only do that by investigating and exploring and questioning and trying to figure things out. That is exactly what she is trying to do with her questions!
If she is asking questions, it is precisely BECAUSE she is not simply accepting everything but is in fact trying to figure things out.
It’s a process and she is doing a good job of proceeding.March 13, 2017 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1228515
“Thank you for clarifying which post.”
I think it might also have been this:
“If this is not Purim Torah you clearly have too much time on your hands”
It does look like you deleted something (I think it must have been the main problematic comment) so thank you for that! Much appreciated!
And thanks, YYTZ!March 13, 2017 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1228516
lesschumras – thanks so much for rephrasing in a way that gets the point across without being insulting!March 14, 2017 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1228517MenoParticipant
If you don’t want to pack your groceries in a spam box, go ahead.
But it is very important that you understand that there is absolutely no comparison between that and tying our shoes in the correct order.
One is halacha and one is not.March 14, 2017 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1228518👑RebYidd23Participant
I don’t think it’s so much about energy contained within objects as it is more simply about not doing that which is prohibited. Cross-dressing is prohibited, while using hangers of the opposite gender is not. The problem with Indian hair wigs is the prohibition of giving money to/benefiting from avodah zarah, not spiritual energy contained in the hair.March 14, 2017 2:10 am at 2:10 am #1228519
Tznius is also halacha.
Women not wearing men’s clothing and men not wearing women’s clothing is also halacha.
That’s why I am asking. What is the spiritual affect of mixing clothing with items that formerly stood as the pillar of an opposite gender’s closing in an opposite gender’s closet.
Anyway. I understand that it may be a humorous detail, but everything has meaning, doesn’t it?
Thank you… and I appreciate all of your comments.
For the record, lesschumras poster-name is lesschumras, so I can at least expect a little push back on chumra-sounding questions from lesschumras’ character 🙂March 14, 2017 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1228520WolfishMusingsParticipant
Except for skirt hangers, my wife and I use the same hangers all the time. I guess we’re really spiritually mixed up.
(Interesting fact: My father and grandparents used to make hangers. I remember when I was a kid watching wire coming off these huge spools (at least six feet tall) and being fed into these machines that bent and twisted them. My favorite part was the part that created the little twisted braid near the top.)March 14, 2017 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1228521
Wolfish Musings: That’s amazing! Thank you for sharing 🙂March 14, 2017 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1228522
“Women not wearing men’s clothing and men not wearing women’s clothing is also halacha.”
It is an explicit passukMarch 14, 2017 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1228523WolfishMusingsParticipant
It is an explicit passuk
And that invalidates what lightbrite said, how????
Are not the directives of explicit pesukim also halacha?
The WolfMarch 14, 2017 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1228524
The definition of male vs female clothes constantly changes. Just look at portraits from the 18th century. The well dressed man wore powdered wigs. At different points in time Jews in the middle East and North Africa wore robes. You can’t apply 21st century standards to prior centuries and vice versaMarch 14, 2017 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1228525WinnieThePoohParticipant
LB, while hangers have no problems, and I am a bit bothered by your use of the term energy, since it reminds me of Eastern practices that could be questionable, but you are picking up on something that can be found in halacha- the idea that an object can pick up something that makes it more than just an object- for example, an object retains some kedusha if it was used for a mitzva, or l’havdil, it retains some tuma because it was used for an aveira. Used chanuka wicks, lulavim and esrogim after sukkos- they retain some status after they no longer serve their purpose, many people do not throw them out but burn them with the chometz. And objects used for avoda zora need to be destroyed. which brings up the Indian hair issue- clarification – either the hair was donated to the temple, and was then used in their rituals and therefore considered an actual object of avoda zara, or it was donated in order to be sold and raise money for the temple. These possibilities raised serious halachic problems that led to people avoiding Indian hair altogether. It was never about using hair from people who were idol worshipers.March 14, 2017 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1228526Avram in MDParticipant
nowadays our understanding and sensitivity to the higher spiritual world has been deadened and hidden. trying to grasp it is trying to grasp Hashem. dont let the Yetzer Ha Rah stop you.
I agree with this in principle, but one must be careful in the application. Our conduit to the spiritual world is Torah, and its core precepts should garner our primary attention. Spices smell very good and therefore capture our attention, and, applied with skill, can turn a regular meal into a gourmet masterpiece. But chasing after spices when there is no meat to put it on makes no meal at all.March 15, 2017 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1228527
Judaism is a Value pyramid
An explicit ‘Lav’ is higher
In the case before us,
Putting the two on the same level is incorrect.March 15, 2017 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1228528
A ‘Lav’ with Capital punishment outranks a ‘lav’ with Kareis
and so on
Although there are exceptions
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.