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If a man gets married, doesn’t divorce, gets remmaried, and has a kid, is that a mamzer?
I have a strong feeling there is a lot more to this question. Which married man gets remarried? Was his marriage a proper marriage?
no, that marriage is only assur m’drabanan. mamzer is when one lady has husbands, and many other cases, but rabbeinu gershom made a takanah that a man may marry only one wife but i dont think its a mamzer is he does
If he didn’t divorce then he didn’t exactly remarry.
That is a halachic issue which you should address to a rov, but according to the Torah, no. Only if a child was conceived with someone else’s legal wife, is the child considered a halachic mamzer, according to my understanding of what i was taught.
Rabbeinu Gershom issued a takana that a man should not marry more than one wife concurrently, but that still does not make a child a mamzer, if he does. There might be another halachic designation (which i don’t know if there is or is not), but mamzeirus as it applies to your question specifically refers to the child born of adultery committed with a married woman. He might not be permitted to marry bigamously, but the woman, if she was single, is not committing adultery, so her child is not a mamzer. Two of our Avos had more than one wife at the same time, and they followed the Torah. The Torah speaks of the halachos of yerusha, as it relates to the children from two concurrent wives. Nowadays men don’t marry a woman while they are still married to another one (except in the rarest of situtations and with a heter meah rabbonim). But I imagine the halacha is still interpreted in the same way regarding mamzeirus, i.e. that the child is not one.
no
no. he can be a kohen gadol.
… or the president of the United States.
he’s fine there’s no bd’avad ruling of mamzer in his case
In general, there are only three ways for a person to become a mamzer:
1. Be born of a father or mother who is a mamzer(ess)
2. Be born of a union between a married woman and another man.
3. Be born of a forbidden union which is punishable by kares (with the exception of a man and his wife who is a nidda).
So, to answer your question, the marital status of the father is not a relevant determinant in whether or not the child is a mamzer. So, assuming that neither of the newborn’s parents are not mamzerim, and assuming the woman in question is not otherwise married to another man and assuming they aren’t closely related to each other, the child is not a mamzer.
The Wolf
If a divorce is recognized by some rabbonim, but other rabbonim say the divorce was invalid, if she remarries will subsequent children be sofek mamzeirim?
As long as the man isn’t a mamzer himself (which would be very rare) there is no problem unless the woman was married to someone else. He’s violating a good many Jewish (and American) laws, but the man’s marital status is irrelevant. There wouldn’t be a reason to ask a shailoh, and given the man’s disreputable behavior, he wouldn’t want to be anywhere’s need someone to ask the shailoh to.
If the woman was married had been married to someone else, then there are complex issues.
to naysberg.
logic please.
sofek to whom?
Sorry to say i know of a case where a woman had an affair on her husband and she married that guy. Had 3 children from him then had an affair on him with another guy. Then they got married. So in this day in age I am sorry to say Rabbonim dont care. People knew about it. No one cares. You move to another town where no one knows you and you start over. And hope the past doesnt catch up with you.
TO WOLFISH
those are only two ways. your number two is simply an example of your number three.
If a divorce is recognized by some rabbonim, but other rabbonim say the divorce was invalid, if she remarries will subsequent children be sofek mamzeirim?
No. Some people will hold they are vadai mamzerim, and some people will hold they are not mamzerim at all.
As a result, nobody will marry them since they will be afraid that nobody will want to marry their kids.
There were very serious shailos after the war about granting a woman the right to remarry in the absence of firm proof that the husband had died.
Unfortunately, there were cases where the first husband reappeared a number of years later. The children of the 2nd husband are 100% mamzeirim. i know of such a case and this family had to marry off all their kids to out of towners. The local community did not publicize this fact but they definitely did not marry any of their children to this family. Whether or not this fact had to be disclosed voluntarily in a potential shidduch has always been something I never got a clear answer to.
those are only two ways. your number two is simply an example of your number three.
It took you over a year to come up with that? 🙂
In any event, when most people hear “forbidden union punishable by kares” they usually think of incest, not adultery. So, technically, I suppose you’re correct, but nonetheless, I stand by my statement.
The Wolf
TO WOLFISH
You left out : Born of a forbidden union that is punishable by death.
Death and Kares are not includive.
isaac1554:
and she was really a frum woman who intended to be married “K’daas Moshe v’Yisrael”?????? if not, it would likely be held she was at most a pilegesh, and the issue of mamzerus is avoidable
PloniAlmoni4: How can mamzeirim marry out-of-towners??
You left out : Born of a forbidden union that is punishable by death.
Death and Kares are not includive.
My understanding (and, if I’m wrong, please correct me) is that for *any* forbidden union where the death penalty is mandated, the punishment becomes kares if the deed is done without proper warning and/or witnesses.
The Wolf
How can mamzeirim marry out-of-towners??
They can’t. The point is that they were married to people who didn’t know their status.
I always wonder how many people in the world today are mamzeirim and don’t know it either because their ancestor’s infidelity was never discovered (and, please, don’t insult my intelligence by telling me it never happens)or publicized, or because they quietly moved to another country and didn’t tell anyone their status.
The Wolf
Wolf: In the absence of proof of mamzeirus (perhaps required to be made to a beis din), my understanding is any Jew maintains a chazaka of being kosher.
Furthermore, while Moshiach will reveal many things when he comes (such-and-such person is a Jew despite always having been sure he was a Gentile, such-and-such is a Kohen despite thinking he was a Yisroel, etc.), one thing Moshiach will not reveal is people who were assumed to be kosher but were in fact technically mamzeirim.
Wolf – ok,I won’t tell you. JK, of course it happens, but I heard a Chazal once (course can’t remember where) that Hashem assures us that there won’t be a proliferation of mamzeirim. Which He could accomplish in any number of ways.
what is the status of a child born to a mother who concieved from her husband while she was nidda?
PloniAlmoni4: How can mamzeirim marry out-of-towners??
As Wolf has pointed out they cannot. I am just seeking clarification if one is obligated to disclose this knowledge if one is contacted about the family in question re: a shidduch or is one being over Lifnei Iver or not.
“… or the president of the United States.”
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell….
to wolfish:
wow, I didn’t notice this was an old thread that had woken up.
to realisraeli.
there is no halacha relating to such a person.
even so, such a person is called by some a PAGUM and suggest
avoiding marriage with him her. but this is choice and suggestion not halacha.
Of course one would be obligated to tell a potentially (kosher) shidduch partner if the other party is a mamzer. It is an assur marriage and you cannot let it go thru (lifnei iver, like you pointed out.)
In general the Rabbonim are loath to designate anyone a Mamzer
There was a divorce case in Israel where the man did not want to pay child support for his wifes 2 kids and claimed the kids were not his. They did a DNA test and it showed he was the father of one but NOT the other.
The Beit Din still made him pay child support and refused to terminate his parental responsibilities to this child who really was a mamzer (The reasoning was a child born to a married couple is the husbands child)
To: Real Israeli
A child conceived by a woman while Nida is NOT a mamzer(es).
“WolfishMusings – It took you over a year to come up with that? :)”
Naysberg joined as a member in the CR only 2 weeks ago.
Naysberg joined as a member in the CR only 2 weeks ago.
That’s true… but the person who made the correction to my statement was “nitpicker” not “Naysberg…” and nitpicker has been here for three years. 🙂
The Wolf
Since the halacha is rov beilos achar habaal, how can any child ever be considered a mamzer?
If there are witnesses or any other conclusive proofs that rule out the husband as the father.
The ‘Rov beilos etzel habaal’ is only applied when there is a degree of uncertainty.
In any situation other than when the husband was away from home, how could there be any situation where rov beilos achar habaal doesn’t apply?
if he is infertile
if the husband states that the child is a mamzer he has that ne’emanus (I believe according to one shita at least).
How could the husband know with certainty to make such a claim?
And prior to modern medicine, how would we know if he is infertile?
The husband can ascertain that he has not been with his wife.
He could be a ‘Krus Shofcho’
nitpicker – “suggest avoiding marriage with him her” – the Steipler says if you see the person is frum this obviously does not apply becuase the inyan of pagum is ubarosi mikem es hamordim uposheim be – elu benei osnas mashgach – the nun being nidah – so if you see the person is not mordim bi then they are perforce not pagum
“Sorry to say i know of a case where a woman had an affair on her husband and she married that guy. Had 3 children from him then had an affair on him with another guy. Then they got married. So in this day in age I am sorry to say Rabbonim dont care. People knew about it. No one cares. You move to another town where no one knows you and you start over. And hope the past doesnt catch up with you.”
I know this is going a bit far back, but that post just made me sick!
Ploni Almoni: I remember hearing of a similar post holocaust case years ago where the name of the family (with grandchildren already) was not publicized. However, in that case some heter was invoked by sending a (belated) get via a shaliach. I’m not sure if the messenger actually forwarded the get, but I really don’t remember the details, and this was all hearsay. If anybody knows more about this case or how it would potentially work please post. If there was a heter, it’s a more probable reason for why the townspeople didn’t disclose this information for shidduch purposes, even if they themselves felt uncomfortable with it.
Just out of curiosity, is the child of two mamzerim a mamzer? I remember a teacher saying he/she is not and being very confused. Isn’t it hereditary?
If one or both parents is a mamzer, all their children are as well.
Your teacher was wrong – even the child of one mamzer is a mamzer.
Just out of curiosity, is the child of two mamzerim a mamzer? I remember a teacher saying he/she is not and being very confused. Isn’t it hereditary?
See my post above, to wit:
In general, there are only three ways for a person to become a mamzer:
1. Be born of a father or mother who is a mamzer(ess)
2. Be born of a union between a married woman and another man.
3. Be born of a forbidden union which is punishable by kares (with the exception of a man and his wife who is a nidda).
Yes, I suppose I might have been unclear and you could have read the “or” in the first condition as an exclusive or. It is not. My apologies for being unclear on the matter. The “or” in the first condition is not exclusive.
The Wolf
If anybody knows more about this case or how it would potentially work please post.
If you send a Get via a Shliach and then go to Bais Din & cancel the Get (instead of telling the Shliach), and then the Shliach gives the Get to the woman.
Gittin 33a:
???? ????? ?????: ??? ???? ????? ????? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??”? ?? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?”? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????:
I heard a Chazal once (course can’t remember where) that Hashem assures us that there won’t be a proliferation of mamzeirim. Which He could accomplish in any number of ways.
Yevomos 78a. I heard a story but can’t find it now that Rabbi Eliezer Silver went to a Bris to publicize the fact that the child was a Mamzer.
Reb Moshe z”l was frequently matir mamzerim on the grounds that their parents initial eidei kiddushin were probably not kosher le’edus
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