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I work in a store 25 minute drive from home. There is another frum woman working there. She sometimes asks if she can come with me. If not she has no means to get in that day. I’m married and so is she. She would sit in the back. The frumkeit at work is proper. Men would call women by their last names (Mrs. Ploiny) and the other way around. My wife feels I should not drive her.
1. Is this not “yiddish”?
2. Are there guidelines that can make this ok?
3. Is this so un-tznius that I need to quit?
4. Should I not care about her if she cannot make it in?
What are your thoughts?
Ask your rav.
In no way shape or form should you give her a lift.
It is completely Mutter, but if you wanted an extra geder, you could be on the phone with your wife the whole time.
But since your wife doesn’t want it it is assur mishum shalom bayis.
You could also AYLOR.
1. Is what not “yiddish”? giving her the ride? or not giving her the ride?
2. perhaps keeping conversation to a minimum (or none at all)
3. Why would you need to quit your job because you’re not giving her a ride? as you said “The frumkeit at work is proper”
4. not sure of the relevance. either it’s OK to give her the ride or it’s not.
the answers to these questions would likely vary widely depending on the community you live in, and to some extent your personal hashkafos (and also to some extent your wife’s opinion – which you stated)
this should be discussed with your own personal rav or rosh yeshiva who knows you.
by asking here, you will not get any clarity. you will be castigated as a parutz by some for even considering giving her the ride. And you will be ridiculed by others for using frumkeit to not help another jew.
To add one one more thing to ‘adocs’ list of reasons not to ask here, because nobody on YWN is a competent Rav. To go with your wife’s opinion is always the safest for Shalom Bayis. (which many people don’t consider important these days because there is always somebody else available).
I believe you are asking whether one violates the issur of yichud when being in a car together with a woman. Rav Moshe here http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&st=&pgnum=125 says it’s assur, except b’shas hadechak.
rav shlomo zalman says one can be meikil if the car has trasnparent windows. A key question you need to answer is if the woman can get a ride from someone else. If she can, mah tov umah noim. If she can’t, then perhaps it is a shaas hadechak and even rav moshe would say it’s mutar to give her a ride. in any case, consult a posek please!!
what Im wondering about is wether the overwhelming urge to give her a ride is Yiddish rachmanus at work or perhaps something less kosher. Do Not give her a ride, she has no business asking.
Do Not give her a ride, she has no business asking.
Of course she has a business asking – she has to get to work. Would you rather have her lose her job?
Your wife is correct. As a one time thing perhaps. But to spend 50 minutes alone in a car giving a ride to someone else’s wife every day for the next ?? Years is just a really bad idea.
But I have a better idea. You say both of you are married. So this is “shidduch crisis neutral,”. Why not both get divorced; you marry her and her husband marries your wife? Much more convenient since then you can commute with your wife! (That’s what this is headed towards anyway)
I almost totally agree with popa. I don’t have a problem with a one time situation, if an honest assessment is made that they can remain completely professional. I also think that some people would say not do it even once, and I think that’s also okay.
On a regular basis? You’re asking for trouble.
Classic Popa Classic.
zogt_besser –
1: This is exactly the case where Rav Moshe says it is allowed.
2: Even Rav Moshe agrees that there is no Issur of Yichud, but rather says it is a bad idea because they might go out somewhere far and be Misyached. IN this type of scenario (which both are expected to be in specific places at specific times) that is not a Chashash.
IN this type of scenario (which both are expected to be in specific places at specific times) that is not a Chashash.
I don’t think anyone would notice if they were once five minutes late.
1: This is exactly the case where Rav Moshe says it is allowed.
Correction. Rav Moshe does not specify whether it is a one-time deal or not, but from the description in Iggros it would seem to be a one time thing. Daas Yochid has a good point, and I don’t know what Rav Moshe would say.
Hadri Bi.
Discussing yichud is a distraction to this conversation.
If you get dressed up and buy her flowers and take her for a candlelit dinner and a stroll along the Hudson River on the west side of Manhattan, that is also not yichud.
this is an interesting question and I have thought it myself several times.
I live in a city where buses are not a ready option. Sometimes I will pass a man walking in extreme weather or in pouring rain and if I do not have a son with me, I painfully refrain from offering a ride. Most of the men would know who I am and that my intentions are good, and we are only talking about blocks, not miles, but I feel uncomfortable – or that he would feel uncomfortable.
either way, if your wife isn’t liking it, i guess that answers that question.
What if the woman is the sole support of her family and without this ride she has no Parnassah for her family
I think it is wrong, especially since your wife doesnt like the idea. Im assuming she doesnt like the idea because the woman is in your age group and it would constantly make her feel uncomfortable. Bottom line: Sholom Bayis comes first.
I don’t think anyone would notice if they were once five minutes late.
That’s a Yichud issue, not what we are concerned with here.
What if the woman is the sole support of her family and without this ride she has no Parnassah for her family
Bike or public transportation. Your Shalom Bayis comes before Yenem’s Parnassah.
What if the woman is the sole support of her family and without this ride she has no Parnassah for her family
What if they’re both blind, and driving a google car, using google glass, and there will be other people in the car, but the other people are deaf?
You are assuming she can Bike or there is public transportation available
If this would be going on for years you can get a mechitza in the car.
You are assuming she can Bike or there is public transportation available
Yes. If not, she can pay for biking lessons (not as if it is difficult, most 6-7 year old children can figure it out). Not your problem.
This is about sholom bayis, but it is also about a common sense (which is unfortunately not common enough) geder which would be irresponsible and dangerous to not keep, even if there were no objections.
Go out of your way and drive a third male driver so there won’t be a yichud issue
If your wife asked not to give her ride why are you even asking the question? I think instead of asking a rov you should speak with a therapist and discuss with the therapist why the urge not to heed your wife’s request.
1. The question is in English not Yiddish.
2. If it is every day there might be a problem of becoming too friendly. of course, you can start include another woman. Then they will talk to each other the whole time.
3. Where is the halacha that men and women must address each other by their last names found (see Taanit 20b that Rav Ada bar Ahava ascribed his long life to not addressing people by their last names)? What did Jews do before the authorities required them to take last names? Did they say “Mrs. Golda” (cf. Rav Ovadia) or perhaps like the English “Mrs. Yossi”?
mtydhd,
My wife feels I should not drive her.
Seriously, how can it even be a question after this?
I am proud that I took Rebetzin Weinberg a’h (Ner Israel) home from a shopping center pretty close to her house. There was no one else in the car. She was over 70 I was in my 40s. As she stepped out she smiled and said “Dont ever tell your wife”.
In other words: Use common sense – God gave you a sechel: If you cant control yourself dont do it – if you can, like most normal people, do a Mitzvah.
Since the woman in question is Frum, a practical approach could be to tell her that you think there may be a Yichud issue according to Rav Moshe, and ask her to check with her own Posek to see if this is OK or not. That way, you’re not the “bad guy” telling her no – you’re raising an issue, and empowering her by having her ask the she’eila of her own Rav (assuming it’s someone reliable, of course). If her Rav says no, the issue goes away with no hurt feelings toward you – though if he says yes, you then need to speak with your wife to see if she’s OK with it, based on the Psak.
Good luck,
an Israeli Yid
Did they say “Mrs. Golda” (cf. Rav Ovadia) or perhaps like the English “Mrs. Yossi”?
Wife of “Ploni” or daughter of “Ploni”.
AIY, or, more simply tell her, “sorry, my rav says it’s an issue”.
Close your halachah seforim.
Leave your Rov out of this.
Your wife doesn’t like the idea? Don’t you dare give this woman a ride.
The real question he’s probably trying to ask is “How do I tell a woman that I don’t want to do a favor for her. Not because I can’t, but because it makes me feel uncomfortable. Or rather because my wife doesn’t let.” I agree that he should speak to his rav for guidance on how to say no without causing resentment.
The above answer, “Sorry, my rav says it’s an issue” is surely the best reply. You don’t even have to ask him.
First names: Rav Falk (Manchester) says it’s assur. Also, Rav Chiam Pincha Scheinberg ztal, said it’s assur. When asked, “But what if you’re close friends?” , he answered, “Then you’re too close!”
If there’s no last name, say “rebitzen”.
My wife’s great aunt used to drive R Abramsky to give his shiur in bayit vegan. They were not related.
He sat in the back,but it was hard for him so he sat in the front.he said ” der Rov meg dos tohn”
Someone from the shiur stopped coming,as he felt it wasn’t “passt”.the Rov’s reaction was – his loss.
Could be its different when the combined ages of the people involved totals over 150.
Why would you need to quit???
Being nice begins at home. What your wife wants trumps what your coworker needs. This is a mitzva for someone else, and Hashem will send another shaliach.
I’m curious, the OP said that if he didn’t give her a ride she wouldn’t have any way to get to work.
Well, when she took the job how did she plan on getting there?
Huh? did you change the title? this is whole other issue..
Agutyar, obviously it depends on the society. If calling a person by his/her first name implies closeness it is a problem. However, today in most situations (an exception is if one is the boss and there it also applies between people of the same gender) it does not.
Regarding Rav Moshe’s pesak, Rav Eli Mansour says that “the halachic authorities” have ruled that there is no problem and then cites Rav Moshe’s opinion. You can ask him on-line what he means. In any case, even Rav Moshe is only machmir lechatchila. Certainly if it would cause ill feelings, she would be stranded, etc. he would be meikal.
kolmevasser a person cannot say i have control and that is that this is a slippery slope the first day they will say almost nothing the next talk about their boss the next so on and so on…. and then control is lost. I join the chorus of posters who say if the wife doesn’t want it that’s enough.
Goq, what she does not know will not hurt him. Once Rav Moshe ate some kugel at some function. He said to the person with him “If the rebbetzin doesn’t ask you don’t have to tell her”.
The husband already (wisely) mentioned this to his wife and she is against it a piece of kugel cannot ruin a marriage.
Avi, while you’re correct that not telling her technically will avoid shalom bayis issues in the short term, long term, it’s a recipe for disaster.
Also, a piece of kugel is not the same as another woman.
Also, Goq’s first point about the slippery slope stands.
Kolmevasser drove a chashuv’ah rebbitzen who was decades older. That’s a huge factor. Apparently the rebbitzen a”h had a fine sense of humor.
Even if a few minute trip home from local shopping would be the same as a 25 minute ride, which it’s obviously not, the former was A ONE TIME OCCURENCE.
And the kugel was probably not allowed for health reasons, which again maybe wasn’t the best choice but a far cry from covering up and undermining a marriage.
I know people that don’t tell their spouse everywhere they go (innocent places) to prevent criticism (“oh, you went to this and this function, Chezky could have used your help with Gemara tonight.”) Personally, I don’t think that’s a good idea, but understandable.
But covering up an ongoing situation that may escalate dangerously is a recipe for marital disaster, and IT WILL BLOW UP WHEN SHE FINDS OUT even if “nothing happens”. Just simply the fact that he didn’t tell her will make her suspicious. I can’t believe posters here are advocating it. That’s the opposite of common sense.
You’re allowed to lie for sholom.
Popa, not smart if you’re going to get caught. Far smarter to not do the offensive thing to begin with so you don’t have to lie.
Here it is doubly stupid to cover it up because the wife already knows about the ride request (and already said no to it), rather than something she never heard about that if it came up later he might be able to say he didn’t think it important to mention.
When I was in yeshiva, there was an altah bochur who used to go to nightclubs every night, and would tell his wife that he was going to night seder.
He used to say that his whole life he was only able to tell the truth l’sheim shomayim, and now had finally found an opportunity to lie l’sheim shomayim–how could he not take it?
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