Manchester Eiruv

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  • #611806

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    Has anyone got any ACCURATE info on the new eiruv in manchester?

    If you qoute rabbonim, please say who they are what position they hold, and where their various pesokim can be found/accessed

    PLEASE PLEASE do not use this thread as an oppurtunity to write against rabbonim or community leaders of any denomination in any town.

    #1000102

    notasheep
    Member

    I’m an ex-manc and my family there have told me that there is no politics regarding the eiruv, but some people won’t use it for chinuch reasons (children can get confused if the go to a place where there is no eiruv and have to be told why they can’t carry. It’s far easier to teach them that we don’t carry on shabbos).

    #1000103

    notasheep
    Member

    Just to add all rabbonim in manchester agree that it’s a kosher eiruv

    #1000104

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Manchester United!

    #1000105

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    Who cares which Rov says what. Follow your local Rov and that’s it. Do you care which Rov paskens what on hilchas Niddah? Why do people like to stir up trouble? I never understood why regarding an eiruv is such a big deal versus what different Rabanim say about hilchois niddah or whether one should eat rice on Pesach or not. Mind boggling it is

    #1000106

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Has anyone got any ACCURATE info on the new eiruv in manchester?

    Any information you get on an anonymous forum must, by definition, be considered potentially inaccurate. (I know – circular reasoning.)

    #1000107

    notasheep
    Member

    Git Meshige, what I meant was that all rabbonim in manchester hold that the eiruv will be halachically valid, according to whatever shita they hold by. Unlike some other eiruvin where there has been massive conflict between rabbonim over the halachic validity (and sometimes a bit of politics comes into play as well) there are no such problems with the manchester one.

    #1000108

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Saw my mate, the other day,

    said to me, I’ve seen the white pele,

    said to him, what’s his name,

    said to me, Wayne Rooney,

    Wayne Rooney, Wayne Rooney,

    Wayne Rooney, Wayne Rooney

    #1000109

    RR44
    Participant

    I think that r’ padwa of london is opposed, as is R’ chaim halpern and r z. feldman.

    Gitt meshigge you’re 100% right, it’s a puty pther eiruvin became such an issue

    #1000110

    RR44
    Participant

    The machshirim are R’ Berel cohen, and r’ avidgor groossberger shlit”a

    #1000111

    Ken Zayn
    Member

    As a current mancunian I can report the following

    1. News on the manchester eruv can be found on it’s website manchestereruv.org.uk

    2. The eruv went live this shabbos for the first time and the brocho was said on thursday, (although for some unknown reason the website still has the eruv status as ‘not checked’ as of 9.30pm motzei shabbos)

    3. It is highly unusual to get a general consensus of rabbonim anywhere when it comes to a town eruv and manchester, sadly, is no exception. Some rabbonim allow it, some said only if theres a real tzoirech, some say it needs a few things changing first – and the eruv committee ARE ACTIVELY looking into this, some have told their own shul that it’s better not to use it, and some rabbonim have absolutely forbidden using it.

    4. notasheep: your information is inaccurate, unfortunately.

    5. Popa: Manchester City is not United…

    #1000112

    notasheep
    Member

    Was only going by what my parents told me, and at the time they told me there was no one saying that the eiruv is not kosher, only that some people just won’t be using it for chinuch reasons. My father also prefers not to use it. Which rabbonim say it’s not kosher?

    #1000113

    Ken Zayn
    Member

    I dont think we need to name names here. Those who live here know and to those who dont it’s not nogeia.

    It differs from shul to shul. What shul does your father daven in?

    #1000114

    yacr85
    Participant

    Yes, virtually all the Poskim in Manchester who are involved in Eruvin have said that the Eruv is Kosher.

    There was one person who misquoted an old Teshuva from Dayan YY Weiss but that was dealt with easily.

    Ken Zayn, #2. The status is ‘not checked’ because it is for the following shabbos. On Friday it was green and as soon as Shabbos ended, it went back to “not checked’

    One of the Rabbanim who was involved in the construction of this Eriv, was also involved in the Kashrus of the Yerushalyim Eruv.

    He said that the Manchester Eruv is better than the one in Yrushalayim. So if you use that one then you can definitely use this one.

    There are many aveiros that people do that are way worse than carrying in an Eruv.

    Lets not get carried away here.

    As far as what people should do, they should just ask their Rav. Why oh why do people feel the need to make a huge deal about something so tiny. (As someone said above, no one questions what other people do when it comes to Koreis shailos)

    #1000115

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is beyond me how anyone could use an eiruv in a city that is named for a football team. Disgusting.

    #1000116

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    lol popa

    #1000118

    notasheep
    Member

    Popa +1!

    Ken Zayn, my father davens in Adass Yeshurun. Like I said, he prefers that when we come we don’t use it, simply for chinuch. Except for when I go to Manchester for Shabbos it doesn’t make much difference, and where I live anyway has no eiruv.

    #1000119

    Ken Zayn
    Member

    “It is beyond me how anyone could use an eiruv in a city that is named for a football team. Disgusting.”

    You have a point. I suppose thats why you’ll never find an eruv in any other city around the world that has a football team. Take for example New York… 🙂

    No I think Popa is trying to impress that besides Malcolm Glazer there exists another American (himself) who has also heard of the concept of football/soccer that is played beyond the united states, though he can only name one player.

    Coming back to reality, I did not meet a single jew carrying over this past shabbos in my so called charedi part of town and nor did I expect to.

    But let all those who wish to use the eruv do do in the knowledge that there are enough poskim who are matir our eruv, let all those who do not wish to use the eruv do do in the knowledge that there are enough poskim who are not matir our eruv, and let manchester remain united

    #1000120

    oomis
    Participant

    For one reason above all else, I appreciate wherever there is an eruv. A Yid who is frei may be a mechalleil Shabbos, but in a town where there is an eruv and he is carrying, that is still ONE LESS aveira that he is committing that day. I am not joking.

    #1000121

    notasheep
    Member

    oomis +1 You have a very good point

    #1000122

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    UPDATE

    ALL MANCHESTER RABONIM ADVISE THERE IS NO PROBLEM USING ERUV AT ALL TIMES BESIDES ON SHABBOS WHEN THERE COULD BE A PROBLEM

    #1000123

    Crazybit, you forgto yoim kippur too.

    #1000124

    RR$$, not all the people listed count as rabbonim. no offense, but check into the details. [The eruv website list one of your machshirim as a mashgiach, not a rabbi, and there’s someone else who ossurs who has also not a rabbi

    Hatzlacha with getting your shoes back.

    #1000125

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    YT, the matirim, one is a Rov of a shul and one was a rosh koillel for a long time. I don’t know who they recieved semicha from, but they can both be reffered to as rabbi.

    #1000126

    charliehall
    Participant

    “It is highly unusual to get a general consensus of rabbonim “

    When Rabbi Willig completed the Riverdale eruv, he asserted his authority and laid down the law that absolutely nobody was permitted under any circumstances to question those who use it. For anyone who questioned it, it wasn’t necessary to use it themselves but it was absolutely forbidden to characterize those who did use it as non-shomer Shabat.

    We need more rabbis like Rabbi Willig.

    #1000127

    etzhar
    Participant

    Hi I am in Manchester too and I feel the need to correct some of the above.

    It seems that yes, the majority of the Rabonim hold that the eruv is Kosher albeit after utilising some “kulos” which a frum/bnei Tora community may not be happy with.

    Most seem to be saying that the Eruv can be used “bshaas hadechak”.

    The inyan of Chinuch is only an issue by one or two but has not been the main focus. (as mentioned above most Manchester people know who the Rabonim referred to are and those who dont, dont need to IMHO.)

    The drosho which I heard in Prestwich (north Manchester)also stressed the need not to denigrate those who are machshir and/or those who carry.

    #1000128

    goldersgreener
    Participant

    “We need more rabbis like Rabbi willig.”

    .

    .

    When a certain person was matir the original london eiruv, despite it having a pirtza of more than ten amois, unless one uses the chazoin ish shi’ur lekula, then many others, including R’ padwa and R’ E’ halpern refeerred to those who carry as mechalelei sabbos. The person in question went to Maran R’ Michel Ywhuda Lefkowitz, and without telling details of the story told him that people are calling him a mechalllel shabbos. Marna hagrmi”l wrote a letter saying that one may nott refer to him as a mechallel shabbos – although he was being matir carrying without a kosher eruv!!!!!!!!

    .

    We need more Rabbanim who are prepared to stand up for the tora.

    .

    If an eruv is good, then aderaba, but one must first ascertain whether it is good.

    .

    .

    /{the london Eruv has since been improved.

    #1000129

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Oomis,

    In a letter written by Horav Shimon Schwab about an Eruv in NYC, written on behalf of the gedolie poskim, including R Moshe Feinstein and R Yakov Kaminetsky, he specifically dismisses that reasoning.

    He included the letter in his Sefer, Mayan Beis Hashoieva.

    #1000130

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charlie,

    “We need more rabbis like Rabbi Willig.” Certainly in Riverdale, where the alternative is a Rabbi who uses his shul as a dance hall for priests.

    #1000131

    J.
    Member

    goldersgreener – you are being motzi shem ra against one of the greatest rabbonim in Europe, who was encouraged to build the NW London eruv by the Tzitz Eliezer (see his teshuvos 19:17).

    The pirtza was measured and approved by R. Eider, and the traditional practice in many kehillos across the world was to make use of the same shiurim le’kula (NOT just the Chazon Ish’s but R. Moshe’s and R. Yaakov’s too), as cited in “The Laws of an Eruv” by Rabbis Francis and Glenner. Rav Elyashiv even wrote a clarificatory letter about this which you conveniently neglect to cite.

    I think the events in London over the past year and a half should make clear which rabbonim are the ones who are prepared to stand up for the Torah.

    #1000132

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nishtdayngesheft, I don’t think oomis was referring to a passul or questionable eiruv.

    #1000133

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    J.: thank you for your thorough reply. People have very short memories. I grew up in a town (in Europe) that had one of the earliest eruvim in europe-and it was based on many kulos- more than the kulos used in boro park or london. No one has ever said that it is not a good eruv- at most, some people did not carry,as a ‘chumro’ for themselves. And certainly, no one ever called the people who used the eiruv “mecahllelei shabos” Chas vesholom.

    What happened in london with the eiruv is a scandal and has little to do with halocho. It became a political matter and I think that some of the opponents did not exactly add to their prestige by calling other frum people “mechallelei shabbos”.Certain events that happened subsequently have weakened the opponent’s hand considerably. “Dai lechakimah beremizah”

    Thanks for your post!

    #1000135

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Certainly in Riverdale, where the alternative is a Rabbi who uses his shul as a dance hall for priests.”

    When did it become mutar to spread motzi shem ra against numerous distinguished rabbis?

    #1000136

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When did it become mutar to spread motzi shem ra against numerous distinguished rabbis?

    It is a mitzva to say lashon hara about apikorsim, particularly distinguished ones. But you would be correct that it is probably assur to say motzi shem ra, since sheker is still assur!

    But there is still no issur of kabbalas sheker, so it would only be a problem for the person who said it.

    I can’t easily find on google that they hosted priests dancing (whatever that would be), but they do have a Hip Hop dance class–no priests invited.

    Anyway, I don’t assume they would allow priests, since the Catholic church is a bunch of old fashioned religious bigots and doesn’t allow female priests. (Hey! Maybe Maharat Weiss can try ordaining the first female Catholic priest! He’s as Catholic as he is Orthodox, so I don’t see why he can’t. And then he can get Israel’s Catholic authority to recognize it!)

    I hope Weiss reads this. I’m only trying to help.

    #1000137

    Geordie613
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin,

    I would also have thought that opposition to the London eruv was political, except for the fact that Rabbi Pinchos Roberts Shlita is against it. He is not a politics man, is an Ish Emmess, and doesn’t exaggerate in any way.

    #1000138

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Does anyone know if the tikunim have been carried out in Manchester in time for this Shabbos?

    #1000139

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hah! I found it! Maharat Weiss really did turn his sanctuary into a dance hall for priests, and I have no idea why Charlie thinks we wouldn’t find out that he’s lying.

    On January 18 2010, HIR hosted a MLK Day concert in their sanctuary. At the concert, they had a performance by a baptist reverend with a church choir. I watched the clip on youtube, and indeed they do dance.

    I hope the choir at least got a teudah from him testifying that they’re Jewish, as payment.

    #1000140

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Aaron Chaim: I know that Rav Roberts to,opposed the eiruv. However, I think the only one who actually said that the people are ‘mechallelei shabbos’ is from the “other” shul. You know, of course, that Dayan Ehrentreu was the “machshir’ of the eiruv. No small person,either.

    #1000141

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    PBA,

    The same is scheduled for January 20. 2014 and it is proudly promoted on the website.

    Another interesting point to note; If anyone had any thought that perhaps there was an error by rabbanim in pointing out that Slifkin is not kosher, guess what? He too is listed on the Bayit web site.

    Now you can see what is meant by ??? ???? ?????. And ??? ??? ?? ????. (Unintended puns are uncannily apt).

    #1000142

    truthsharer
    Member

    I don’t know why you’re bringing in Slifkin.

    As far as most sane thinking halachic Jews, if it’s Slifkin vs. Anybody, Slifkin wins.

    #1000143

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    lol, ??? ??? ?? ????.

    #1000144

    J.
    Member

    Rabbiofberlin – unfortunately everything you have written is correct. The chillul Hashem that some of the people who were most active in the opposition to the eruv have been responsible for recently is beyond description.

    I have more respect for Rabbi Roberts than I do for all the other eruv opponents put together and I will endeavour not to discuss specifics, but if you think politics is absent from the discussion here you are deluding yourself. I am not interested in pushing this point – let’s stick to halacha.

    I am sure that if he had anything to add to the arguments against a London eruv this would have been included in the anti-eruv kuntres published by his junior colleagues. The weaknesses of this publication have been demonstrated elsewhere.

    I should add that the Tzitz Eliezer is referring to Rabbi Roberts when he says that the mesaknei ha’eruv should take no notice of those who want to prevent the eruv being built for various reasons, and that they have a ‘chiyuv’ to establish the eruv as soon as they are able to.

    #1000145

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Me bringing in Slifkin? Avi Weiss is, not me.

    Oh, I believe you left out some words. “Among WHAT WERE THEY thinking”. Fixed it for you.

    You are welcome, no need to say thanks.

    #1000146

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “Certainly in Riverdale, where the alternative is a Rabbi who uses his shul as a dance hall for priests.”

    When did it become mutar to spread motzi shem ra against numerous distinguished rabbis?

    I’m going to be dan Charlie l’kaf z’chus. I don’t think he was lying, I just don’t think he understood the reference.

    From the way he responded, it seems that he understood that nishtdayngesheft was saying that other than R’ Willig, every rabbi in Riverdale turns his shul into a dance hall for priests. AFAIK, it’s only HIR, and it’s not literally dancing priests, it’s a baptist minister choir (with participants dancing along).

    But come on, Charlie, when the home page of a synagogue has a picture of a female Baptist singing, inviting all to come listen, even you should admit that they’re outside the pale of frumkeit.

    #1000147

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, baptist ministers are absolutely not priests. And Charlie was not trying to be evasive at all–he just did not see how one thing was related to the other.

    #1000148

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Discussion threads often tend to veer into new territories all the time and so, I’ll comment on the innuendos by some posters against Rabbi Slifkin. I read his writings all the time and I certainly have not found any reason to say he is “not kosher”. The vendetta against him is, as in most things, political, and has little to do with Yiddishkeit or honesty. And last I looked, the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is still an orthodox shul,so why shouldn’t rabbi Slifkin be invited there?

    #1000149

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ROB:

    1. I don’t know when you last checked, but HIR hasn’t been an orthodox shul for years.

    2. You say the opposition to him is “political”, but you don’t say what the nature of those politics is. That should sort of matter, should it not?

    #1000150

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Well, “emes me-eretz titzmach”.One must recognize the truth. Intrigued by DaasYochid’s words, I just looked at the website of the “bayit’ and,indeed, it has a (cough,cough)photo of a African’American woman in Baptist style singing- presumably on the occasion of MLK day next Monday. As much as I understand some of the innovations of Rabbi Avi Weiss, this is one thing I have difficulty accepting. It is OK hosting a MLK day event- we do live in the US- but there could have been more appropriate and mainstream Jewish ways of doing this. Clearly, he walks to his own music and does not care if he antagonizes his colleagues, even the MOs ones!

    #1000152

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m just getting at the “political” part. I’m not sure what you call political, and what is not political.

    It sounds like you are saying that he is considered worse than he actually is, because of his challenging some holy cows. Meaning, that the criticism directed at him should have been confined to his challenging the holy cows instead of at other aspects of him that may not be as problematic.

    Is that your angle?

    #1000154

    RR44
    Participant

    Rabbi pinchos roberts – is one of the most senior litvishe rabbonim in lonodn, has regualrly told his kehilla “even if ten doctors would say something safe and one would say it’s dangerous would you dream of not listening, so too the eiruv…

    .

    If i am not mistaken he has discussed the matter with R eider zt”l and fet that R’ moshe would have ossered.

    .

    PLease say which eiruvin before the wat used shi’ur chazoin ish lekula

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