April 16, 2012 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #602948
Most married people are emotionally divorced
Because marriage is about having a relationship with another person.
The tools that enable one to be involved in one,is HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH ONESELF
This means being aware and experiencing ones needs and attempting to satisfy them.
Most Frum people believe that we must be solely concerned with what Hashem wants and needs from us. We are taught to believe that we do not have personal needs to dwell upon.
We say that GIVING is the foundation of a marriage.
I can only give what I posses.
Accordingly, if I have never EXPERIENCED MY OWN NEEDS its impossible to give my spouse their needs since I am not in touch with the concept of NEEDS!!!!!!!!
Accordingly one has not got the tools to create an emotional bond.
Divorce is all about EMOTIONAL DETACHMENT
In the eyes of HASHEM 2 PEOPLE LIVING TOGETHER BUT ARE EMOTIONALLY DETACHED are referred to as EMOTIONALLY DIVORCED
THIS IS FRIGHTENING!!!!!!!!!!April 16, 2012 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #885827smartcookieMember
Most married people are emotionally divorced
Really. Where do you take that from?April 16, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #885828yossi z.Member
Dunno where awarenessvaad (he? She?) Got it from but I will vouch based on personal experience of seeing others’ marriages (I do life coaching so unfortunately I get to see a lot).
Either way, awarenessvaad is correct on their point. Think about it.
ZMApril 16, 2012 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #885829
smartcookie My opening line is really the conclusion. The post explains how I got there.April 16, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #885830kingdavidParticipant
Shalom Bayit Idea from Rav Arush:
Peace in the home invokes Divine Abundance and blessings. Through marital peace, a person can ascend spiritually and maximize his or her potential. Additionally, peace is the root and foundation of tikkun olam.April 17, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #885831HaLeiViParticipant
“In the eyes of Hashem” — wuh-hoh!April 17, 2012 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #885832
awarenessvaad- I cant say that I agree.
I would say that a cause of marital strife is when one is TOO focused on fulfilling his/her own needs.April 17, 2012 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #885833BaalHaboozeParticipant
It sounds nice but I don’t buy it. I agree with the PROBLEM, but disagree with the REASON.
“Accordingly, if I have never EXPERIENCED MY OWN NEEDS its impossible to give my spouse their needs since I am not in touch with the concept of NEEDS!!!!!!!!”. End quote.
Oh, please! I SO disagree! Do you really think people are so out of touch with reality?? How many people in our day and age are SO FAR-FRUMPT that they ONLY HAVE HASHEM’S NEED ON THEIR MIND and have ZERO IDEA WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE?! What planet are you on? What kind of people are you talking about here, malachim?? Are people on such high madreigos that they can’t understand mortal needs, only that of the DIVINE?
With all due respect, i would like to suggest that ONE OF the REASONS why people aren’t GIVING in a maariage, is simply because they are not being realistic, and think and live with the concept that we were raised with , that “they got married and lived happily ever after….” That everything is beautiful and lalala from the wedding and on….
Perhaps in yeshiva they were taught the IDEA of GIVING, the IDEA of selflessness, the IDEA of being mevater, but they were NOT taught of the STRUGGLES and HOW to have a ‘SUCCESSFUL FIGHT” with one’s spouse. “The shtender doesn’t fight or talk back to you!”, my rebbi used to say. How does a bochur coming from yeshiva know how to handle life’s pressures of financing, and dealing with a wife with not-such-good-middos? Marriage is hard, and it is a struggle, but one can reap the most beautiful benefits if he grows, is mature, is focused, and stays in touch with reality. I think people are unrealistic and EXPECT happiness, and EXPECT financial problems to work THEMSELVES out, they EXPECT to live happily ever after. And when it DOESN’T WORK OUT, when things aren’t as they seemed, and the wife isn’t the queen you thought, they get into fights and want OUT. Nowadays people are so ungrateful, sometimes because they expect favors, they expect you to buy them something etc. Someone wrote in the CR how a woman never said thank you after they held a store door open for her as she pushed her baby carriage inside.
People I think are very insecure, helpless, and clueless when life hits them with problems and nisyonos.
And marriages are the greatest example.April 17, 2012 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #885834
Correct.People are focused on their needs and some are too focused.
BUT they are consciously unaware of this.Accordingly they become “needy people” steadily involved with satisfying their needs even at someone elses expense. This is what a selfish person is all about.
The person will not admit this is what is happening since their needs are being satisfied in an unconscious manner.
An unselfish person is someone who is consciously aware of their needs and therefore realises that others also exist and have needs and I have no right what so ever to satisfy my needs at someones else expense.
Simultaneously, they will want to help their spouse get their needs met.April 17, 2012 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #885835
yossi z. Thanks for your support
I believe that most people will be unable to admit to what I am saying since they will then need to reassess their marriage which understandably is extremely difficult.
You being a life coach have had personal first hand experience with people in such situations.
A friend told me what he has learnt about marriage from his experience with others and believes,is the correct way how to live
He says when a couple start their married life ,of course they are together.As life expands it is accepted that each spouse goes in their separate ways.
I was shocked to hear this.
In my view, this is exactly what I am talking about.
He is telling me that
EMOTIONAL DIVORCE IS PART OF MARRIAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand that this view is as a result of being in a very difficult situation. On one hand, experiencing that they are unable to be emotionally involved with each other and on the other hand they NEED to remain living together for various reasons which one could well understand.
Unfortunately ,THIS SITUATION,has created a false philosophy that emotional bonding is not an essential element of marriage.This is not an intellectual motivated idea.April 17, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #885836
P.S. QUOTE: “on the other hand they NEED to remain living together for various reasons which one could well understand.”
This is an example of a need that people are unaware of,and is being satisfied unconsciously. This is since they would never admit that their philosophy stems from it.April 18, 2012 12:56 am at 12:56 am #885837Think firstMember
While I agree that many people don’t have the amazing relationship they could have, I strongly disagree that “most people are emotionally divorced” that’s simply not true.April 18, 2012 1:52 am at 1:52 am #885838MorahRachMember
Threads like this are probably really frightening to all of the high schoolers that go on ywn. I have not been married so long, bH I am extremely happy, this sort of thing scares me. Not quite sure I fully understand what the OP is trying to say. I see a lot of couples married 15-20+ years who have no respect for one another, or who don’t seem happy /in love/ content. Then again I only see a small portion of their relationship. The only real reference I have unfortunately is my parents marriage which is definitely not a good example to follow. I think it’s about compromise, and both sides need to work on it everyday. I feel like so much of what we learn in Kallah classes is forgotten or thrown out the window. Hashem wants you to love your spouse, and put them first and constantly buil on your relationship. People get to comfortable being lazy in their relationships and get in ruts and have a hard time finding their ways out.April 18, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #885839PLONIALMONI4Member
Your logic is compelling but I think is not quite accurate as many other people have commented here. However, I do agree that due to the many challenges many people face there are many couples out there who have trouble coming to terms with reality.
It is not that these people are selfish or uncaring it is just the stress of living with the constant fires that they are putting out, mostly of a financial nature.
Young people in the Yeshivish world who want to live a kollel life without depriving themselves of life’s comforts will have stress unless their parents are wealthy.
Even working people have much financial with the unending tuition, bills, etc etc.
Effective communication and common purpose.
And mutual respect.
Any missing element from this three legged stool and you are facing a pretty unhappy journey through life.April 18, 2012 3:27 am at 3:27 am #885840
Think first. Sorry.Change the word “most” to “many”April 18, 2012 4:13 am at 4:13 am #885841
MorahRach you are right the current situation is scary. I am also feeling it.My intention is to see if there are other like minded people who would be interested in exploring this issue.
I read many articles in papers and magazines and hear Droshos about what one needs to do in order to have a good marriage but, as you say,”it gets forgotten or thrown out of the window”
I believe no one consciously throws it out.They themselves are unaware that they are doing that.This made me explore the concept of “unawareness”.
As PLONIALMONI4 says part of the solution is effective communication.
I came across a book entitled “Non violent communication A Language of Life”. He explains how we are unaware that naturally we communicate unhealthily. One needs firstly to become aware that one is unaware that naturally one communicates ineffectively, in order to solve this problem.I would recommend this book to anyone interested in this topic.April 18, 2012 5:29 am at 5:29 am #885842pcozMember
chas veshalom, mi gilah lechah raz zehApril 18, 2012 6:13 am at 6:13 am #885843Think firstMember
That’s more accurate and unfortunateApril 18, 2012 7:44 am at 7:44 am #885844HaKatanParticipant
I’m not sure where “awarenessvaad” conjured up that statistic from, but it’s certainly false.
While there likely are marriages that could use some improvement or revitalization, it is not “most” and definitely not “all”.
In fact, most are good, if not optimum or very close to it, BE”H, and not any worse than that, CH”V.
(Keep in mind, as well, that the economy is very challenging and when couples don’t have time/can’t make the time to spend with one another, this will certainly have an impact on that marriage. A generation ago, when women were typically at home or working part-time, and men worked typical 9-5 jobs with no 24/6 Blackberries and other challenges, it was easier to maintain and therefore raise up the level of one’s marriage. Today, however, with more job pressures on both spouses, 24/6 connectivity to the office (for everyone, not just the CEO), it takes much more effort to ensure the necessary post-marriage “dates” are scheduled. Some couples today may need some guidance in implementing this.)
As far as “going their own ways”, a healthy marriage is one where both spouses still maintain their own unique identities. There is nothing wrong with each doing their own thing, provided it is not detrimental to the relationship or, even better, actually contributes to the diversity of the marriage. For example, if the woman decides she wants to learn the piano and therefore signs up to take piano lessons, this is not a reason to question her marriage and, in fact, this could actually strengthen both her own self and her marriage.
As for giving but not having ever received, I think this is far-fetched, especially in today’s sophisticated society. People typically know what they need, at least most of what they need.
A good marriage is priceless, and definitely attainable, BE”H. It takes work, but if you are both honest and fair, maintain good communication with each other, and are careful in your Bein Adam LaChaveiro with each other in addition to Bein Adam LaMakom (not any particular order), the marriage should, BE”H, be set to be truly wonderful for both the couple and Hashem.April 18, 2012 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #885845
awarenessvaad- You started with saying that people are unaware of their needs and as such have been ignoring same. Then you agree that they are focused on their needs “BUT they are consciously unaware of this. Accordingly they become “needy people” steadily involved with satisfying their needs even at someone elses expense.”
According to your logic, this emotional detachment should start immediately. If “GIVING is the foundation of a marriage” -which I happen not to agree with- and “its impossible to give my spouse their needs since I am not in touch with the concept of NEEDS!!!!!!!!” then actually, the emotional bond should never have been created to begin with!
Most newlyweds have an emotional bond because they ARE giving. There will be frustration and disappointments on both sides as each learn what they need to give, but the bond is there/
I would venture to say that a reason for the emotional detachment that exists in some couples married for more than several years is that life itself gets in the way. We are too busy with trying to find enough time to daven, learn, work, eat, take care of children, sleep, relax a bit etc… that couples forget that an emotional bond needs time and work to keep it strong.
Btw, giving is the foundation of love, not marriage. The ???? of ???? is ??, which means to give. Your giving to your children causes love, not marriage.April 18, 2012 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #885846
“According to your logic, this emotional detachment should start immediately. If “GIVING is the foundation of a marriage” -which I happen not to agree with- and “its impossible to give my spouse their needs since I am not in touch with the concept of NEEDS!!!!!!!!” then actually, the emotional bond should never have been created to begin with!”
You are a 100% correct.The emotional bond of “Loving other” has never been created. check out “Love in crisis” http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/love-in-crisisApril 18, 2012 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #885847
HaKatan and yungerman1 For clarity sake, My friend was referring to an emotional detachment as he was disagreeing with the reason why someone was getting divorced.
I believe that if an emotional bond exists then its a feeling that is with you 24/7,in ones subconscious and does not need a reminder.If time gets in its way that proves that it never existed in the first place!!!!
what does exist is explained in “Love in crisis” http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/love-in-crisisApril 18, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #885848computer777Participant
I disagree with the OP. In life, children who were always given whatever they wanted, expect to continue adult life with the same attitude and they are not givers at all, they are only aware of their own needs. OTOH, the flip side is of those children who’s needs were not taken care of as children very often become extreme givers in adulthood and they are not aware of their needs let alone try to take care of them.April 19, 2012 10:15 am at 10:15 am #885849
To computer777 “always given whatever they wanted” is not synonymous to ” always given whatever they needed”
Do you differentiate between desires and needs?
There exists a need not to get all that one desires!April 19, 2012 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #885850
“I believe that if an emotional bond exists then its a feeling that is with you 24/7,in ones subconscious and does not need a reminder.If time gets in its way that proves that it never existed in the first place!!!!”
I couldnt disagree with you more.
Did you ever have a toy that you liked? A favorite doll? Did you feel an emotional attachment to it? Did the feeling fade after time?
Ask any woman how she feels after a hectic week where she had a disagreement with her husband and did not spend any time with him in a positive way. Ask her how she feels after a week of vacationing alone with him. Are you saying these feelings are hollow and artifical??!!!April 19, 2012 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #885851
TO yungerman1 I am referring to an emotional bond of ” wanting to give”. Your example of a toy is one of “receiving”
Secondly, the feeling they have after a weeks vacationing are real but could very well be about “receiving”April 19, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #885852
To yungerman1 I mean to say that the couple perceive it as “giving” but in reality it could be otherwiseApril 19, 2012 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #885853computer777Participant
There exists a need not to get all that one desires!
It’s interesting that you didn’t respond to the flip side of what I said.
As for this, yup there indeed does exist a need not to get all one desires. But you said that if all one needs are met only then can they be givers. Are you saying that that becomes true only if ALL needs are met? And if in one area it’s not met, then it becomes not true. Sorry. I don’t think there is any truth in that. And I highly doubt you can find many people who have all their needs met, and certainly not by the givers of the world.April 20, 2012 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #885854
TO computer777: Correct no one gets all their needs met from their parents.
The problem starts when one is not consciously aware of exactly what needs were not met and then mistakenly, since one remains “needy”,(feeling something is lacking.I don`t mean a nebech) one imagines that ones spouse is the one that is meant to satisfy it(falling in love).
A spouse can always help out as a favour, but will only be willing to do so if the spouse is made to feel “not responsible” for what I am lacking.
So says Harville Hendrix in his book “Getting the love you want”
which was recommended to me by a frum psychotherapist who is also a “Rabbi”.I believe there are many Torahdicker Haskofos in it.
Re: to extreme givers : There are 3 types of people in connection with needs not being satisfied in childhood.
1 Someone who will unconsciously seek out to satisfy their need, even at the expense of others(b/c he is unaware that he is doing that)
2 Someone who will consciously attempt to deny they have needs and become an extreme giver in order to suppress their needs.
3 Someone who will learn to become consciously aware(know and feel)that certain needs were not met as a child.
He will not blame his parents for this b/c he realises that they,in turn,did not get their needs met by their parents.
He will then take full responsibility for that and attempt to satisfy them by himself, if thats possible,or request, as a favour,from his spouse to help him get his needs met.
I hope I have answered your queries.April 20, 2012 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #885855
I had a chat with a prominent psychologist regarding your thesis. He disagreed with your thesis and has not seen or heard of any evidence supporting it.
The closest idea to your thesis would be based on analytical theory of psychology. It would be that someone who had any particular need as a child that was not fulfilled then as an adult they MAY aggresively pursue that need. For example, if I child never received confirmation and recognition that they are capable of completing a particular task, then as an adult they MAY be obsessed with accomplishing the task and getting recognition from everyone and anyone and ignore others around him.
This is not because they were too busy focusing on “what Hashem wants and needs from us” and are unaware of their own needs.
This is one of many psychological theories and cant be used to explain every case of emotional detachment.April 20, 2012 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #885856
TO yungerman1 P.S.RE The 3rd person.
The spouse on their own may offer to help out once he/she is made aware of what the other needs.April 23, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #885857
TO yungerman1 I want to clarify my thesis as I think it may not have been explained clearly.
There is no one who gets all their needs met as a child, since parents are not perfect.
Accordingly,my starting point is “everyone” as opposed to “someone”.
And its not “MAY be obsessed” but definitely will be,b/c a “need” is something that is always longing to be satisfied.
Focusing on Hashem is just one example of being unaware of ones needs.Correct,there could be other causes.
I would appreciate if you could tell me what you now think my thesis is, so that I will know if I have explained it clearly. Thanks.July 18, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #885858RsozMember
Trouble in marriage is a clear Nisayon from Hashem, and analyzing it psychologically, without Davening for help, will accomplish nothing,
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