Marrying a Bas Talmid Chochom

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  • #1292474

    Joseph
    Participant

    What can a bochor do to raise the likelihood of having the greatest zchus to marry a Bas Talmid Chochom?

    #1292480

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Become a Talmid Chochom in your own right and you may be an acceptable choice for a Bas Talmid Chochom.
    Otherwise, having lots of money and being able to support her male relatives that learn all day doesn’t hurt…………….

    #1292482

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Make friends with a Talmid Chochom.

    #1292483

    Joseph
    Participant

    Of course it is also very important that the girl’s brother, of any potential shidduch, are also checked out to be sure they are Bnei Torah.

    Regarding supposing to marry a Bas Talmid Chochom, how is it best to check out whether the father is a Talmid Chochom? Giving him a farher is tacky, despite the famous story of the Chasam Sofer suggesting that he should do that before he got married.

    #1292520

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The “z’chus” is in marrying a baas yisroel who is herself an appropriate kallah for the bochur in all respects and that they together are well suited to raise a family and establish a “bayis ne’eman’ bayisroel. The fact that here father is a talmid chacham or big tzadik is nice but otherwise irrelevant as to the likelihood of the success of the cahassanah. A girl raised in such a family is likely to have the midos and love of torah to create the right conditions but thats no guarantee she is the be’shert for the bochur in question.

    #1292567

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Gadol Hadorah is apparently unaware of the gemara in Pesachim 49a, as well as other locations.

    #1292593

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Of course it is also very important that the girl’s brother, of any potential shidduch, are also checked out to be sure they are Bnei Torah.

    If you had your way, my sister would never have been married. Fortunately for her (and her husband and children), they chose to ignore this.

    The Wolf

    #1292612

    Today, disqualifying anyone in whose family there is
    a boy who is not a ben Torah seems unreasonable.

    #1292613

    Also, Reb Yaakov said that it doesn’t apply so much now. It’s in
    his ArtScroll biography somewhere (I can try to find it if you like).

    #1292614

    (Has this thread been posted before? The opening seems very familiar.)

    #1292622

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Midwesterner:

    Other than her ending up being widowed, divorced, living in poverty not having children, or her own life ending early (did I leave anything out from the daf) I’m not sure there are any issues for the bas talmid chochom ending up marring a bochur who may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer. In all seriousness though, the chassan/kalah need to truly care for and respect for one another aside from reviewing their respective parents’ resumes. Its generally a good predictor but one wouldn’t expect a bas talmid chochom (aka baas Kohen) to be dating the local Am ha’Aretz (ben yisroel) from the outset unless the shadchan was himself/herself the product of such a union.

    #1303634

    kitov
    Participant

    Was is a Talmud chochom ?
    To find that out we first have to know what an am haretz is ?
    I believe an am haretz is some one who does not know even a pasuk Torah.
    With the bar set so low everyone is likely to marry a bas Talmud chochom today.

    #1303653

    Joseph
    Participant

    There is a vast area in between am haretz and Talmid Chochom. It isn’t either or.

    #1303735

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    For girls, the blessing is that they be like Sarah, Rivka, Rochel and Leah, whose fathers and brothers are not all known for being talmidei chachomim.

    #1303732

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, the Maharal (Chiddushei Aggadot Baba Batra 110a) says to check her mother’s brothers. However, Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakvo Kaminetzky ruled decades ago that that does not hold true today as girls get most of their education in school.

    #1303746

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, Chazal tell us to check the potential kallah’s brothers to make sure they are ehrlich; not her mother’s brothers. Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakov have not ruled otherwise.

    RY23, Chazal tell us to marry a Bas Talmid Chochom.

    #1303757

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is probably a rather old but reliable metric in considering a potential kallah….does she (herself) act in accordance with daas torah….do her midos and demeanor reflect the family’s yichus….and MOST importantly, does she show she cares for and cherishes her potential chassan and look forward to building together with him bayin ne’eman b’yisroel.

    #1303842

    Joseph
    Participant

    Are you going to use your own criteria or the criteria Chazal tell us to use?

    #1304385

    Joseph
    Participant

    Where did anyone say it’s an obligation? There’s no obligation to not marry an unkempt slob either.

    #1305946

    ahirsch
    Participant

    I know many talmidei Hachamim whose daughters are not very good at all. And the daughter of the rabbi of our community married a guy whose parents aren’t even religious. Not only are they not religious, they are card carrying Meretz supporters. The guy is a very big talmid hacham.

    Point is to look for a good person, not who their parents are.

    #1305955

    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re saying Chazal are wrong?

    #1305958

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, look up the Maharal. See also קונרקס יביא עזרי under גדר יבדוק באחיה (on-line). I also saw in the name of both the Chazon Ish and Rav Ovadia that if she is a baalat teshuva her brothers donb’t count and that a girl who learned in a seminary is considered a bat talmid chacham.

    #1305970

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Ive Shared this story before but it applies here:

    A few years ago at irgun shiurei Torah hookup, Rav Shteinman was asked if a person has a choice between a bas talmud chacham but he would struggle to learn or a daughter of a rich person who can support him, undisturbed who should he pick?
    Rav Shtienman asked the questioner: what about middos?
    Questioner replied: They are the same

    Rav Shteinman replied (with a grin) that there is no real talmid chacham bezman hazeh

    #1306012

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiq, that’s fine if the shver is emotionally supportive as well.

    A girl from a wealthy family is more likely to want a higher (more expensive) standard of living.

    Also, the literal bas talmid chochom has lived through it, while the virtual bas talmid chochom has merely learned about it, and there’s a big difference.

    #1306236

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, what about her connections with her teachers?

    Ubiquitin, a boy who was interested in a shidduch with Rav Yisrael Salanter’s granddaughter sent him some chiddushei Torah in an attempt to impress him. RYS said to his associates “He is an ilui. now find out if he is a mentsch”.

    #1306238

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What about it?

    #1306289

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Joseph:

    You ask “You’re saying Chazal are wrong? ..”

    Answer is they can be wrong in some cases…..it is beyond foolish to believe that Chazal meant this in ALL cases. Obviously there are exceptions where a bas talmid chochom goes OTD, has personality issues, or any of a dozen good reasons why in a particular case she would NOT be a good choice as a wife. Obviously, most cases one would expect a bas talmid chochom to be someone with wonderful midos, etc. but nothing I 100 percent

    #1306307

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That doesn’t make them wrong in some cases, it just means they weren’t saying a blanket rule.

    #1306624

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Dass Yochid: That may be a better way of saying it…every rule of general applicability still has some exceptions….especially when it comes to people.

    #1307077

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Avi, Chazal tell us to check the potential kallah’s brothers to make sure they are ehrlich.

    It’s a good thing for my brother-in-law (and their kids) that he ignored this.

    The Wolf

    #1307093

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I don’t think he did.

    #1307466

    Avi K
    Participant

    Chazal were right in their time. However, if they would come to life now they would change their ruling.

    #1308565

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Avi K
    Welcome to the reform movement. That’s exactly how it starts.

    #1308724

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Avi K is right….if chazal were to opine on the issue today, they would be considerably more careful to qualify their statement so that CR readers would not take it as a blanket statement. Its intutitive that the daughter of a talmid chacham is more likely to have good midos and make a good wife and mother but everyone can probably cite examples where that is not ALWAYS the case.

    #1308765

    Avi K
    Participant

    Yitz, Chazal say (Shabbat 135b) that an eight-month baby is considered dead and it is prohibited to violate Shabbat for it. The Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 155:4), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Shemirat Shabbat k’Hilchata , I:35:24) and Rav Wosner ((Yoreh Deah 155:4)Shevet HaLevi 3:141 and 8:89:7) say that today that is no longer true. Do you consider them Reform c”v? I suggest very strongly that you be very careful about what you write (see Pirkei Avot 1:1).

    #1309307

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, are the bachurim bnaging down josephs front door?

    #1309117

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    Right so it takes them to be able to say something like that, me and you can’t say “this doesnt apply today”, no offense.

    #1696508

    Benephraim
    Participant

    The “boy” was רב חיים עוזר.

    #1696496

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does anyone know of any shadchanim that specializes in bnos talmidei chachomim? My talmid chochom grandson is approaching shemoneh esrei l’chuppah and we’re getting ready to start the process.

    #1696512

    The little I know
    Participant

    Whoa. It is undeniably an asset to marry a bas talmid chochom. That’s clear from divrei Chazal in multiple places. What I suspect is generating some angst in this thread is that the Chazal did not instruct not to marry a girl whose father was not a talmid chochom. It was not the aim of Chazal to brand these girls as poriahs, to be unsuitable for marriage. In terms of what the Chachomim did express as a warning, it was the marrying of one’s daughter to an am haaretz. But not the other way. Please correct me with a citation if I missed it.

    The Gedolei Yisroel of our generation and recent ones were clear that our judgment of who is a “talmid chochom” is not a reliable standard to use for this. And the judgment of character is equally as critical, though far more difficult to assess. So we do have huge hurdles to overcome, especially when we make decisions that are intended to last for life, and have a small sample of contact and data on which to base them. Perhaps that’s why the role of tefilloh for shidduchim is stressed by Chazal so many times.

    #1697320

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    My talmid chochom grandson is approaching shemoneh esrei l’chuppah and we’re getting ready to start the process.

    😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

    #1697694

    lakewhut
    Participant

    How do you get to marry rich, if you aren’t?

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