November 29, 2021 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #2035737
i noticed a trend in certain communities that they make kiddish on mashke is that properNovember 29, 2021 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #2035789Yabia OmerParticipant
I used to eat by someone who did that lechatchila on Kiddush on Shabbos day. Never understood the inyan.November 29, 2021 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #2035799
At least by Chabadniks, the rebbe was clear that the only time it was appropriate to make kiddush on mashke was simchas torah….otherwise, shabbos was strictly wine. Obviously, not all misnagdim will adhere to the rebbe’s shitaNovember 29, 2021 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #2035829commonsaychelParticipant
i noticed a trend with certain people that they make act like they had quite a lot mashke before the post on the CRNovember 29, 2021 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #2035833
At night kiddush, we should not use chamar medina, what is considered a drink in the residing country, like beer or coffee as for the women who don’t daven is min Hatorah, see SA O’CH 271-272. In the morning, liquor, whisky, beer or coffee can be used. See SA O’CH 289,2. The problem by whisky is the shiur, the amount. MB says that the cups of everyone are metzuraf, accumulate to create a shiur, see MB SA O’CH 272 s’k 30. Havdala can be made on beer and coffee. See SA O’CH 292,2.November 29, 2021 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #2035834
If no mashke available or at night, make kiddush on bread.November 29, 2021 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #2035838LostsparkParticipant
Yabia, did he fill the becher to the brim? Did he quaff the entire contents in one gulp?!?November 29, 2021 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2035858Yabia OmerParticipant
I think it was a small shot glass.November 29, 2021 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #2035867LostsparkParticipant
Reb Eliezer elucidated the core issue.
Besides that I was under the impression it wasn’t possible to use mashke lechatchila for kiddush if you have wine available to use.November 29, 2021 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #2035866
Reb eliezer I think it’s worth noting that this opinion of the small cup is not one followed by everyone it’s actually brought in the piskei tshuvos where he quotes it from a maharsham if I’m not mistaken. You can also find a story of r’ Naftoli ropshitzer who specifically made kiddish on mashke in a small cup to show that was the shiur. However there is also a story of the bal hatanya when before he became the Rebbe he was in his father in laws home for shabbos and he davened barrichus. He missed kiddish Friday night so there was no wine and his father in law hid all the small cups. He was mehader to have a large shier of the kiddish and he was forced to make kiddish in an unusually large vessel. Even though it made him terribly ill.
So we see there are different shiurim
What’s the proper wayNovember 29, 2021 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2035874
Lostspark, reb eliezer also did not address the opinion that by mashke there would be an entirely different shiurNovember 29, 2021 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #2035888
the maharsham indeed defends the minhag in chelek 1, 175. He aays this is based on shitas ha’taz, that you make a bracha achrona on a shot glass of yayin saraf (schnapps) even though it’s less than a revi”is, because it’s considered choshuv. So too by kidush, where chamar medina is acceptable, a shot glass of this sort of chamar medina is considered choshuv.November 29, 2021 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2035892
Some chasidim hold to do this bedavka, while others held that it eas because shnapps was more readily available than wine, but it was a bedievedNovember 29, 2021 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #2035897Shimon NodelParticipant
Only if you drink רוב כוס, and the cup must be a reviis. Making kiddush with a shot glass is like doing nothing at all. There’s no כוסNovember 30, 2021 12:01 am at 12:01 am #2035922
Shimon, that’s not what the maharsham is talking about. Rov hakos/machzik reviis is an issue that’s relevant to hilchos pesach. I tzaychuntzu’d the maharsham; check it outNovember 30, 2021 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2035924
If it’s choshuv enough for a bracha achrona, then a cup that holds it should be considered a kos too by the same logicNovember 30, 2021 12:24 am at 12:24 am #2035933
> Did he quaff the entire contents in one gulp?!?
this is against halakha even on wine. Beitza ~ 25, not one, not three, two.November 30, 2021 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2036063VHere RebbeParticipant
AAQ. Friendly reminder we don’t pasken by Gemara. Please bring a source.November 30, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2036075
Just to clarify the OP. Is the context of the question whether it is permissible to use “other” options when wine is not available for one reason or another or whether these “other” options can be substituted even where wine is available.November 30, 2021 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2036086
Vhere, Sh’A O’Ch 170:8, Ashkenazim allow for the cup size.
But a fair point: Beitza 25 proves a general klal on derech eretz min haTorah – I don’t think anyone argues on that. Pratim are obviously culture-dependent (and some commentaries say – upon health and size of the person). We don’t leave food on a side of a plate for the waiter to eat, and (in America) are not careful about using appropriate utensils as Victorians did. So, you will have to ask your local Rav.
What I do not understand – do we judge by general culture of the times? by the observant community? your own corner? Does it depend who of the above will see you?November 30, 2021 11:55 am at 11:55 am #2036159
Gadolhadorah, you are nisorer by me a moridikke point. I realize now that there is more to the question and both require explanationNovember 30, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2036173
Friday night we should rather make kiddush on pas, bread than other mashke.November 30, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2036178
AAQ, i heard from rav belsky that the issue of eating from a big lerusah doesn’t apply to shabbos, because aderaba, we want to show enthusiasm for eating seudas shabbos…kidush isn’t any different. Actually, it’s probably a hiddur, the same way it’s a a hiddur to swallow an entire kazayis of matzah in one gulpNovember 30, 2021 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #2036210
If we approach kiddush from the perspective of hiddur mitzvah, WHY do so many ehrliche yidden use a cheap and pedestrian Concord or Malaga sweet wine as distinct from one of the literally dozens of high quality varietals and vintages with good hashgacha readily available?November 30, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2036262
I like sweet wine.November 30, 2021 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #2036326
Avira > from a big lerusah
There is something here, yes, but there should be some limits. Whole sugya in Beitza revolves around eating raw meat on Yom Tov. Nobody is suggesting that yom tov seuda overrrides derech eretz min haTorah.
googling related varying manners: not talking during the meal – prohibited by Taanis 5b, Orach Chayim 170:1 but Prisha says this is due to old custom of eating reclinedNovember 30, 2021 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2036352
Reb E: Good point… I guess its all relative. INovember 30, 2021 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2036330
Gadol, MB suggests that sweet wine is exempt from drinking in two gulps. Given popularity of bad sweet wines in US, maybe this is a heter used. So, lifnei ever – you give sweet wine to people without manners.
Historically, NY Jews were drinking NY wine and only sweet stuff grows in upstate NY. Then, RebE and the rest of the kahal acquired taste for this sxweet stuff.
St some point NY wine was monopolized by Manischewitz sweet and was subject to Rabbinical boycotts – that wa the appropriate time to use chalah in the evening and mashke in the morning.
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