October 29, 2020 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1914707
FYI, here are fresh numbers based on meta-reviews of multiple studies
talking is 2-10 times worse than shtikah
speaking loudly 6 times worse than speaking quietly (Ramban wrote about this to his son already)
N95 reduce transmission to that person by 88%
surgical/cloth masks for most of population reduce overall transmission by 85% (170 studies). Half of the effect on transmitter, half on receiver
face shields protect both ways against direct droplets, including eyes. Less effective than masks when used without masks (study on waiters)
virus is viable on hands for 2-4 hours without hand washing.
ventilation is most important. Measure CO2 to estimate amount of fresh v breathed air. should be <= 1000 ppm. If there are MERV>=13 or HEPA filers, higher CO2 may be OKOctober 29, 2020 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1915009GadolhadorahParticipant
Always ask: Thanks for the facts…sadly, I doubt it will make much a difference to those for whom wearing masks is a sign of weakness, denial of personal liberty and political correctness.October 29, 2020 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1915024SRivkaParticipant
The data I have seen is that masks are ineffective (they only block water droplets like saliva) at best and some can cause lung cancer (the blue ones are sterilized with ethyline oxide and contain PTFE in them) at worst. Please provide location of your research so we can see where your information is coming from. There were no studies that said masks are effective against viruses prior to March 2020 so I’d like to know where your data is coming from. I am not looking to make a machlokes. I am genuinely interested. Thank you.October 29, 2020 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1915025ujmParticipant
N95 is supposed to be 95% effective (hence its name), not just 88%.October 29, 2020 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1915031ted cruz for prrezParticipant
even though the consensus among doctors seems to be to wear masks despite the fact that they are not perfect. still i think that the government should not require it because the risks caused by the government being able to control peoples lives is probably greater then the danger that is removed because of a probably small number of people who wouldn’t wear masks properly without a law requiring it and would if it is requiredOctober 29, 2020 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1915112
My numbers are from the report below. The topic itself is not if my interest, but they provide a very readable review of studies and conclusions that you can look up. It is a good mix of prior research on SARS, flu, etc and recent on COVID. A list of references is on p. 128
Assessment of Risks of SARS-CoV-2 Transmission During Air Travel and Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions to Reduce Risk. Phase One Report: Gate-to-Gate Travel Onboard Aircraft
Prepared by Faculty and Scientists at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public HealthOctober 29, 2020 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1915113
PS on the report. I don’t know to what degree it might be biased, but I previously did calculations and measurements on one of the topics they mention: using CO2 and particle measurements to recommend more ventilation, and our conclusions are similar in nature.
SRivka, what is your source for mask being ineffective and dangerous?October 30, 2020 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1915155SRivkaParticipant
Here’s some info on ineffectiveness of masks…
1.On March 8, Anthony Fauci said:
“People should not be walking around with masks,” he told CBS’ “60 Minutes.” “There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.”
2. There were no studies that said masks are effective for viruses before March 2020 which in itself is telling
3. In countries that people are extremely strict about masks (think Eretz Yisroel) COVID is still widespread
4. Doctors are coming out and telling about other problems the masks are causing
5. Dr. Simone Gold spoke about masks at the second frontline doctors summit about masks being ineffective. She said the size of a virus is 1 thousanths of a hair and can easily go through a mask among other things that she said.
6. According to the cdc, 70% of ppl who got covid were wearing masks all the time
7. This article: Masks May Be Messing Up The Brains of Children
Saturday, October 24, 2020
By Becky Akers
Yep, not only do they inflict maskne and headaches, but masks also upload carcinogens into your lungs, according to Guy Crittenden, a former editor of HazMat Management. He posted this information on Facebook; thanks to David Mueller for sending it my way.
I happen to know a thing or two about masks and safety. Why? Because for 25 years I was the editor of an award-winning trade magazine called HazMat Management that covered such topics as pollution prevention and compliance with health & safety laws. We routinely published articles on masks, gloves, respirators and other forms of personal protective equipment (PPE). Now let me tell you a few things about that mask you’re wearing. And please note that what I’m about to share was also stated in the most recent edition of Del Bigtree’s program The Highwire when two OSHA mask experts spoke to the fact that the kinds of masks people are wearing were never (never!) designed to be worn for long periods and doing so is very harmful.
The blue typical mask depicted in the photograph contain Teflon and other chemicals. A Facebook friend reminds us: 1. Masks are “sterilized” with Ethylene Oxide — a known carcinogen. Many teachers in various school boards have been experiencing significant symptoms as a direct result of the effects of this chemical. 2. The masks contain (not sprayed with) PTFE which makes up Teflon along with other chemicals. I found and have posted the US patent to allow manufacturers to use PTFE as a filter in commercial masks… “breathing these for extended periods can lead to lung cancer.”
Don’t agree? Argue with the experts at OSHA, which is the main US agency, i.e., its Occupational Health & Safety Agency. These masks are meant to be worn only for short periods, like say if you’re sanding a table for an hour and don’t want to inhale sawdust. They don’t do anything whatsoever to stop the spread of any virus, and the emerging science of virology now understands that viruses aren’t even passed person to person. I know that sounds incredible, but it’s the case that the virus is in the air, you breath it in, there’s no way to prevent that short of living in an oxygen tent, and if you have a strong immune system you’ll be fine, and if you have a weak immune system you may have to deal with the effects of your immune system working to restore balance within your metabolism.
So let’s say you don’t wear the blue packaged masks, and instead wear a homemade cloth mask — the kind people wear over and over and hang on their rearview mirror and so on. Those masks are completely useless against a virus, and are also very dangerous. OSHA would never condone a person wearing a mask of this kind for anything more than the shortest time. Re-breathing your own viral debris is dangerous to health, and the oxygen deprivation children suffer wearing such masks all day will certainly cause brain damage. I’m not making this up. Again, you might say, well, Guy, you’re not a doctor. True, but I did edit that magazine for 25 years. That’s a long time and many articles on masks and PPE. I’ve attended numerous OH&S conferences and listened to experts discussing these matters.
You may hear people saying that surgeons and nurses wear masks like this all day. Um, no. No they don’t. They’re trained in the proper use of masks, which is to wear them in the OR, then dispose of the mask when they leave that room. Are you aware that operating rooms are actually supplied extra oxygen, to compensate for the reduction in oxygen flow from mask wearing? To my mind, it’s criminal (not hyperbole) to force children to wear masks all day. Setting aside the very real psychological effects, we’re going to have a generation of brain damaged children. Ever heard the expression, “Not enough oxygen at birth?” That’s a joke at the expense of a mentally challenged person, but that’s literally what we’re doing. And we’re told it’s to “keep us safe”! We’re told this by doctors who actually don’t know about PPE and laypeople who have no clue.
So, you can choose to believe me or not, but I was the editor for a quarter century of a magazine that had a strong occupational health and safety mandate, and I can tell you that the mask wearing currently mandated by governments and private businesses offers no health benefit whatsoever, in no way protects you or anyone else from any virus, and actually does you damage beyond wearing it for a few minutes.Got that? Good. Now please share this message and get the conversation going with parents, who must end this masking of children immediately. This is a very serious matter. And related to that, let me just state this doesn’t end for me when the lockdown ends or the masking ends. No, this ends for me when every politician and bureaucrat who inflicted this travesty, this crime against humanity, on the population of Canada (and other affected countries) is in the dock, and faces their misdeeds in a court of law
Even if you want to say that N95 masks are effective, if someone isn’t trained to learn how to handle a mask and they were near someone with the virus, they could pick up the virus from the mask!October 30, 2020 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1915311Reb EliezerParticipant
Masks even if saving one from dying, is worth it.October 30, 2020 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1915339Nachshon1Participant
the 95 in N95 represents the effective filteration the mask offers. It will block 95% of tyhe virus
Surgical masks have not been rated by a US lad to my knowledge and it is excpected that they block (incoming) about 15%.
Problem is the N95 is diffucult to wear properly and is very uncomfertable. There are masks which are easier to wear and block 87% which is the way you may want to go as people will actualy wear themNovember 1, 2020 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1915813
on efficiency –
multiple approaches are published – comparing countries; comparing US states; comparing people on the same ship and same hospital; simulators; comparisons with other viruses – all show that masks decrease virus propagation. In my view, comparing countries and states are suspect – it may be that virus propagation causes more masking. Everything else looks solid.
To answer specific claims:
– virus is small, but it usually travels attached to other particles. Those particles are stopped by filters.
– people are not “extremely careful” in Eretz Israel
– there were studies before COVID, see, or example, he review I posed beforeNovember 1, 2020 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1915801
thanks for a long post. I now understand motivation better. I heard similar arguments in small doses before. You made me think how one would feel if you get multiple coordinated messages, to summarize: mask are not helpful; they are causing cancers and most COVIDs and messing up with kid brains. And Fauci.
First, I’d like to note that this list is great at raising concerns, rather than proving anything. So, we should , in good faith, treat it as such. Concerns need to be investigated.
Let’s look at most serious – masks are dangerous.
I’ve looked at several papers, I see references to safety standards and no references to any limitations or evidence of harm.
PTFE _is_ dangerous -if you happen to heat it to 300C.
OSHA referred above says that mask wearing is limited when you are surrounded by industrial chemicals. there are no limitations in medical or household enviroment.
Article below lists TENs of different materials and levels of comfort – you should be able to choose one that fits your preferences, any would be better than nothing.
Face Masks in the New COVID-19 Normal: Materials, Testing, and Perspectives, Aug 2020
Ming Hui Chua et al
Institute of Materials Research and Engineering, Agency for Science, Technology and Research (A∗STAR),November 1, 2020 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1915857danielaParticipant
SRivka, you are right, facts speak for themselves. In Asia the virus is much more under control. We all know in EY a few people were very strict with masks and most were not. Why are you posting quotes from OSHA? Some of us are already familiar with hazmat and others will simply be overloaded by a piece of information they can’t contextualize or process. What are you seeking to achieve with your posts? To learn something? To convince others of your beliefs? If you want to get yourself (I hope not your family and children) exposed to this virus, you are free to do as you please, I certainly don’t have the desire, let alone the power, to prevent you from doing so. However, please note that not everyone is eager to catch this evil virus.
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