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This is why I keep talking about individuality because as much as we like to conform to norms when is there a line in the sand that says “my self respect is more important then fitting in”
In a socioty that doesn’t respect you for being an individual are they your true friends? I think not. If you cannot be yourself in literally every conversation because it’s always a damn competition. Doesn’t that point to a socioty that is somewhat corrupted by materialism. When I was young it was a select few whod look down their nose at you if you didn’t measure up now it’s a plague and has seeped into every part of our socioty. Where is God in all this. Where is morality.
Morals dictate honesty with yourself and your circumstances. Taking a good look in the mirror and saying. Look I don’t have therefore I will _have_ to make do. And yet that will make me stronger in the end. Why? Because your not living in delusonal thinking anymore your living in reality.
How long is socioty going to destroy our humanity? For everyone and forever?
When nachshon ben aminadav stood in front of the ocean and God said to go into the ocean, the rouring waves seemed impossible and they had an entire army behind them that was about to kill them and yet he took a deep breathe and went into the ocean and the impossiblity of the situation was so strong, yet he went in up to his neck, and suddenly the oeceon split.
If he had tremendous faith and courage to do what needed to do despite all the _crazy_ odds. (They were crazy odds) So can you.
When you are ready to step into the ocean of “personal life circumstances of impossiblity” and willing to have the strength to live within your means, and despite the army behind you of people who degrade humiliate and villify you for stupid things, you will suddenly see the ocean split like a miracle and life itself will free you and make a way for you to cross the oceon of impossiblity and you will be free from Egypt of abnormal material control.
Let yourself be a man of God. not a cowardly man of socioties whims where people lose their souls dignity and morality in the process of fitting in.Again this is all very nice mussar but at the end of the day, there are certain things you can’t say no to. You can’t say no to a vort and only have shnaps and cake. We all agree that a balance between conformity and holding back must be struck. Do we disagree that its a balnace or do you think I should revert to shnaps and cake in my house for a vort? Yes or no please.
If we can agree that the answer above is yes then lets stop hocking about the middle class not spending on that l;ttle extra. Lets acknowledge the issue is that the uber rich needs to stop. And there are 5 other reasons why its the tich fancy ones that needs to be the focus aside for the fact that it puts pressure on us. This is just 1 of the 5.
So then stay stuck and blame everybody else but your own ability to choose.
If I put you in a place where you can cross the street and instead of crossing the street your looking at the other guy who isn’t crossing the street at the same time blaming him that because he’s not crossing the street you cant cross the street.
Delusonal much?chaim87> You can’t say no to a vort and only have shnaps and cake
You are right, drastic changes are hard. But we somehow got to the current situation – gradually. So, move gradually in the opposite direction – make each next simcha a little less extravagant, rather than more.
Of course, Rambam in halachos deos recommends to temporarily go to the opposite middah to train yourself and later return to the “golden middle”, but this is possibly with leadership actions, not by individuals as you rightfully say.
Chaim _you_ choose your life.
Your letting socioty dictate what you choose.
I know countless of people that choose to live outside the box and their incredible happy and oh their wedding have much much more joy because it’s authentic. So stay stuck. And miserable. Noone cares at this pointYour standing in a river and you need to grow, that means having faith and jumping into the river. Across the river is your freedom but your so scared of what everybody will think your stuck.
Stop. Put your faith in God not people. God gives everyone the streinghth to do what needs to be done despite what the naysayers say. Your like frozen in fear.
Who is your God? People? Socioty? Social norms? These are idols. they are blinding you from reaching out to your Devine creator and relying on Him for your courage and relying on him for your self concept, and self esteem.@Always_Ask_Questions,
move gradually in the opposite direction
Thats exactly my point. Sure I should move gradualy towards that goal. But thew more the rich move the needle the other way the more that gradual moves becomes harder.
@nevuah G-d doesn’t want to to do whats normal. This isn’t a faith thing. Yes to a certain point society needs to dictate. I disagree with your idea of ignoring whats around you. i don’t think that whats hahsem wants.You all miss the point and i feel like I am talking to a wall. We should perhaps have a conversation about mussar and what the middle class can do. But the main conversation is the rich. I don’t go for this answer oh lets work on oursleves and all is fine. Unless the rich stop you’ll never really change much.
Chaim. Honestly I get where you are coming from again, but your digging your own grave and waiting for others to change. That’s never going to happen ever.
Chaim everything is faith based. Lol. It doesn’t matter what your doing you need faith. Especially when your in a situation of extreme conformity and control you need superhuman straighth to _be yourself_ despite the naysayers. That takes tremendous faith. If you want to call it faith in yourself. faith in your conviction. Or just faith in God. You can call it that. But you need faith to do what is right.
The collective has alot of control.
Imagine you lived in a collective society of idolitry, like Abraham avinu, and you decided its bs, you think Abraham wasn’t scared when he broke the idols….his father’s anger I’m sure made him afraid but he was driven by conviction and understood what is right. He also stood in opposition to everything those times stood for.
What about noach who built the tevah for 300 years. He was fighting against a degenerate socioty that laughed at him but he had faith in his conviction and faith in the truth.
Doing what is right is never going to be easy. Especially when the collective asks us to drive ourselves insane to conform.
It’s like a very domineering employer who has absolute control….now imagine multitudes and multides of those domineering people. There is fear there. Tremendous fear. But the opposite of fear is faith. That is the anecdote*Abraham ( spell check)
chaim
>> move gradually in the opposite direction
> Thats exactly my point. Sure I should move gradualy towards that goal. But thew more the rich move the needle the other way the more that gradual moves becomes harder.another thing – I am trying to attend less-popular and modest simchas and skip the rich ones that everyone attends. This does not require a big public statement and you can talk about with your friends and gradually more people will do the same.
@nevuah
I disagree. I think you can get the rich to change. My rav did it. he asked a very wealthy close to billionare in shul to please make his kiddush locally in shul vs at a hall and then asked a few other rich guys to tone their kiddish. all with kindness, not forecfully or demanding just with a request. Since he is a sincere rav that loves every jew and did it kndly they listened. He never made taknos but once the rich guy made a simpler kiddush so did the others. And so if the RY’s would sit down with the rich and encourgae (not force) more toned down weddings with the right love they’d listen.
Side note, i can easier fargin a anice shabbos 7 brochos at a hotel. Its a more quieter intimate setting and its hard to host at home. If rich guys want to go all out, that can be much more enjoybale than one night and less of a public kind of flaunting. (even that within reason)
@SQUARE_ROOT – wrong thread.Chaim,
excellent lesson from your rav!Ok. So try and change the rich. I’ll be waiting. Second the fact that everyone fallows the leader is so imiture. Lol. Maybe people should grow a backbone. Third I see where you are coming from but why can’t _you_ set an example as well. The same way other people can set an example so can you
@nevuah
we keep on going in circles. Why can’t I set an example?
1) I don’t set the tone as much as the rich guy and my examples matter much less. I am less influential. I won’t impact society like they do.
2) i am limited in scope by the fact that my lower standards are less far reaching. I can’t all of a sudden make a vort siwth shanps and cake. Because to a certain extent I am subject to society. So yes I can cut down on tomia erev shabbos and only serve home made chulen and kugel vs meat boards or I can put out just seasme chicken by thew shmorg vs peper steak too. Big deal. People won’t even notice. But when the rich guy makes a wedding in a nice hall and yes serves his peper steak etc and makes it nicer, it still makes a statement 100 times more, Lamsa he didn’;t make it at that fancy hotel.
3) As is ay mnay times kids don’t just live at home, They go to yeshiva, camp , shul and friends. if the hock is about the rich making fancy wedding they learn from that. Noone will hock that I didn’t serve a fancy tomao. Even if at home I stress to be simple, kids see whats “cool” out there.All the above point to one common thread, what the rich do matter alot more. They influence both what i can do and what the kids see.
Ill just say one more thing. For a while, there was a fad by the more eidal rich guys in Lakewood where they made weddings at takana halls just a lttile nicer but they refused to go all out and wanted to conform with others. Sadly thats becomng less the norm. but don’t say that we can’t chnage the rich. I think we scared to take them on because we want their money. We are scared that if we call them and say to tone down they will cut their chairty to us. We need a backbone
Chaim we are going in circles true but who cares haha.
you may not feel you do, but you do and you have much more power and influence then you realize. And yes the rich guy has more “influence” materially but remember influence is also spiritual, so that suffocating feeling of being forced to bend to the rich guys will, (which is spiritual servitude multiplied by the amount of people who play into that collectively which creates a spiritual cloud of extreme control) can be mitigated by you by breaking free. And also by leading. You just have to take initiative and the entire spiritual cloud falls apart. Let me give you example
If i had an employer that was able to control everyone and nobody ever did anything about it, and they would all suffer silently under his/her thumb because they were afraid, But the second someone walks in and breaks that bondage by being true to themselves and not letting her step all over them, that sets the stage for others to do the same. It’s like a path in the oceon created for others to guide themselves out of slavery.I understand why you say you can’t. But let’s use the word won’t. Because you still have free agency even if you don’t realize it
I know someone who’s seen multitudes of different weddings, a vort with cake and shnapps, a wedding outside on a property (there was tons of people there) a wedding in a shul, and so many others. They told me that nobody looked at them weirdly or oddly everyone was ecstatic for the couple. I think what you might need to do is change your friends and your surroundings to people who will actually accept you and your circumstances.
Cuz those are not good company@nevuah
I know people that made weird weddings and yes people spoke about them and its was embrassing. So I disagree with that point. Leaving that aside though, you have to know your child. You don’t want them crying while wlaking down the chuppah bec its embrassing. Obviously within reason. As a side note, there is also a difference between being gracious and presentable vs being osttentious. For example, I don’t agree with taknos that limit how much food to serve. (I mean like only $500 worth of seasme chicken) Yes It Ok to say you can only serve seasme chicken vs fancy foods. But to limit how much to serve or to not serve that at all, I disagree. People come to a simcha and are hungry. especailly with kvetchy kids and often from out of town. At a simcha you should make sure people are well feed just like when I invite you to my house for a shabbos seuda. Its so not enjoyable when a guest is hungry and his kids are kvetchy. Serve enough and make sure people don’;t have to fight for it. Thats just part of the cost of making a simcha and even if it increase your budget too bad.Now, back to the main point, there are two conversations that we keep on having.
1) what should i as a yachid do? Yes try to tone it down. Bec thats all I could do. yes there is this mussar Idea that if I chnage myself everyone else will change. you & i know thats baloney. Noone is changing bec of me. Sorry I don’t believe that. Neverthless, i need to do whats right even if noone changes but myself. That brings me though tot he next point.
2) what should the community focus on (not the yachid) Who sould the leaders target? Thats where I say target the rich. they matter and impact others.In short your point well taken up to a point. But if you focus on a community effort, ikts gotto be the rich
PS this doesn’t stop at weddings. same is ture for the fancy trips where a “shul” makes a tour to Europe for syuim on makkos and you feel like a loser if you don’t go. The rav can even call you over and nudge you to join the “chizzuk trip”. Its the fancy homes and lavish other parties too. We need to emphasis a desclation in pursuing luxury“wierd” weddings. None of those weddings were wierd at all. They were very joyful and no one cared. Your hanging out with the wrong people clearly.
I understand why your saying “the rich need to change” but it’s starting to sound like communism “tax the rich”
Yes they shouldn’t be so rude to raise the bar. That’s between them and God honestly because what they are doing is callasolly wrong in many ways. It’s like buying a fancy house in a poor neighborhood and making everyone feel inferior. Yes your right about that.
But because we can’t control others. We have to have faith and streieghth to do what works for us.
A socioty that respects the individual and allows for individuality, are actually a much more wholesome and happier place to exist in. I mean just look at out of town. Thier way more accepting cuz people. Don’t. Care. It depends on people’s character honestly so you need new friends. That’s all I’m saying.Chaim,
start by simply not going to these fancy trips/dinners/weddings. If you can’t say “no” to the rabbi demanding you join the trip, I am not sure why you are following such a rabbi. Find someone who can be an example of middos for you.Elitist people are disgusting people. Honestly. Not only do they measure you by standards that are impossible to meet they also manage to shake the foundation of your confidence just by being in their presence. It’s some kind of sorcery in my oppinon. Cuz it’s almost supernatural control (I’m joking but that’s what it feels like) I can understand why people would fold to their norms it’s like they suffocate the air out of everything that breaths. And now imagine that on a collective level. There’s no room for anybody else.
But what does that show? It shows a deep lack of charachtor and moral clarity and depth and you don’t want them as your friends.
We are all going to have to collectively tap into something deeper, into truth. Into morality into virtue and that comes from inner streighth, faith and conviction of rightousness.
Once you get to that place, even if its callasolly difficult, you know who you will hang onto for dear life? God. And when your in that horrid place where you feel like you’ve been dehumanized to a tiny fraction of who you are, your going to have to find it in you to reach out to God to give you the strength to fallow through despite the horrid abusive rhetoric.
This is where I believe people realize they need their creator, because we are so human and so fallable we cannot do it alone.@nevuah
You wrote “But because we can’t control others.” I disgaree . I think we could change other. We meaning the rabbonim (I know the chasidsha masa with the reba rev zisha says otherwise). Just like rabbonim influence our internet use or size of shietlach, they can do this too. It won’t chnage everyone but it will matter. This our fundamental disagreement. I think rabbonim could change others and you think they can’t. So why don’t they change? Because they don’t care enough. The idea of shunning metarlism and having people tone things down is so lost. Its a faundmental of judaissm. It could be its also just easier to talk about the internet and noone wants to shut off the money tree but knocking rich people habaits. But you could chnage others and you could change the rich.
Re those trips, I do say no. Even if its sponsored. I work for a living too and don’t just own nursing homes where I can take off for 2 weeks. Re my rav he is the most humble simple person. he actually did tone down kiddashim by talking to the rich and having them stop. But I still think he could do more such as stop the fancy tripsChaim you really think rabbanim have any say over wigs and whatever else. Cuz It absolutely doesn’t look like anyone cares lol
that original letter is so true…
An old adage: Someone says their wedding was their happiest night of their life, which I hope on everyone is not true, as that would mean from that day on it gets worse, it should be the night of a beginning of happy times, but the happiest and that’s it? no.
That is what lies here, slashing out on a night which yes don’t get me wrong, should be celebrated, but at a heart-attack-causing level, definitely no!I totally agree people literally working themselves to death just to fit into to the confines of this idolitry we call materialsim and self anihlation. It’s litterly an alter we sacrifice ourselves on….idolitry which is feening for social acceptance at the expense of our entire selves.
Nothing to add… sad reality
Ye it is sad but we need to get back to the word “free agency” and make more individual choices. Enouph with allowing “socioty” to have so much control over us. Where is God in all this. Nowhere? We live in a godless socioty acting with virtue signaling not true raw worship of Devine principles. It’s all virtue signaling in presentation only. Our hearts and souls are corrupted to the core
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