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First of all, ya’all can start with yourselves.
Lol
Don’t wait for other people to change their spots. Start living your own life working within your own circumstances
.if you can only afford a shul for the wedding hall, start making wedding halls in a fancy shul. _you_ need to have the courage
And one person that makes the step will give space for others to do so.
It’s not up to us to change others. They will never change..but we can do something.
Stop conforming. Stop paying the bill. Stop paying the price.
The choice is yours not theirs@nevuah
The start with yourself idea whitewashes the issue very much. Most of us middle class aren’t tyring to make over the top. We are just trying to be gracious and practical. It also doesn’t really set the general tone like the wealthy do. It really doesn’t solve the issue. The issue will still remain that the welathy fancy stuff are against everything judiasm stands for@Chaim87 Those who don’t live a spiritual life will always use alternatives to fill the void. Showing off ones luxurious taste and spending ability is what we call “kavod”, importing tiles from italy is another way of filling the void of purpose. The rabbaim and leaders could preach in a way that they separately address every method one can fill the void, or they could preach that one shall live be a ben torah and fill his days with torah study which is tackling all the “gashmius” problems with the ultimate solution. The second approach is the common practice of the yeshiva system. Besides, there is somewhat of an emphasis made in the bal habatishe communities by the LOR’s about gashmius, but it isn’t highly effective in most cases for the simple reason of there being a void that must be filled.
Many people here have written very smart opinions and ideas, and many ideas how to tackle the problem, and as much as most of it might be true, I want to add one point…
I have no problem that these ashirim are spending this ridiculous money on a 5 hour show off event, I actually think its a good thing, otherwise this money would sit in their pockets, as you can see from the way they spend it you see they are not very purposeful, and wouldn’t use it for real purpose like helping our brothers who are struggling, their view on money and life is if I can say very similar to a goys view on money and life, so I rather they spend it and not keep it in their pocket, and we rather they spend it on weddings where at the end of the day alot of this money if not all are supporting family’s, the caterer, the singer, the stores where the food is bought, the florist, and more, and not spend it like the goyim who as I mentioned they are not far from that, who would spend it on yachts planes villas, where most if not all money would then go to goyim….
The only issue in my opinion is the people who do more then they can afford due to pressure, and nebach think people look upto them if only people would more often tell them in their face what a fool they look, and how it’s only the little 10yo who is discussing the next day exactly how mad they went on their child’s wedding, the mature adults won’t spare a single breath to discuss a day later what flower exactly they spend on for abit of foolish attention
I have no problem that these ashirim are spending this ridiculous money on a 5 hour show off event, I actually think its a good thing, otherwise this money would sit in their pockets, as you can see from the way they spend it you see they are not very purposeful, and wouldn’t use it for real purpose like helping our brothers who are struggling, their view on money and life is if I can say very similar to a goys view on money and life, so I rather they spend it and not keep it in their pocket, and we rather they spend it on weddings where at the end of the day alot of this money if not all are supporting family’s, the caterer, the singer, the stores where the food is bought, the florist, and more, and not spend it like the goyim who as I mentioned they are not far from that, who would spend it on yachts planes villas, where most if not all money would then go to goyim….
The only issue in my opinion is the people who do more then they can afford due to pressure, and nebach think people look upto them if only people would more often tell them in their face what a fool they look, and how it’s only the little 10yo who is discussing the next day exactly how mad they went on their child’s wedding, the mature adults won’t spare a single breath to discuss a day later what flower exactly they spend on for abit of foolish attention
I have no problem that these ashirim are spending this ridiculous money on a 5 hour show off event, I actually think its a good thing, otherwise this money would sit in their pockets, as you can see from the way they spend it you see they are not very purposeful, and wouldn’t use it for real purpose like helping our brothers who are struggling, their view on money and life is if I can say very similar to a goys view on money and life, so I rather they spend it and not keep it in their pocket, and we rather they spend it on weddings where at the end of the day alot of this money if not all are supporting family’s, the caterer, the singer, the stores where the food is bought, the florist, and more, and not spend it like the goyim who as I mentioned they are not far from that, who would spend it on yachts planes villas, where most if not all money would then go to goyim….
The only issue in my opinion is the people who do more then they can afford due to pressure, and nebach think people look upto them if only people would more often tell them in their face what a fool they look, and how it’s only the little 10yo who is discussing the next day exactly how mad they went on their child’s wedding, the mature adults won’t spare a single breath to discuss a day later what flower exactly they spend on for abit of foolish attention
We need to start laughing at them in their face
Chaim87 I understand you and something tells me this impossible suffocating conformity has something to do with it. So much so people feel embarrassed to live with their means. It feels unfair.
But being different, doing the right thing. _never_ felt easy. It takes lots of courage.
But isn’t courage worth it? That you do what works for you despite what the naysayers say, so that you can have true freedom?This is also why we need to focus on faith, and transcend these norms by focusing on God. because what humans define us as, what they decide for us who we are, how they look only at how we present ourselves, make us walk all over eggshells to fit in, scorn us and dehumanize us because they control the narrative, we need to find the inner strength to focus on something bigger then that. Something that transcends all that. Something that is above that. And find strength in that despite the suffocating, “norms”
God is bigger then these norms, having faith, transcends these norms, courage asks us to face these norms and live a different way. A better way.
Instead of getting straighth or being destroyed by the crowd focus on something biggerChaim > Boys should be banned from being on that floor.
I’ve seen one billionaire when he was honored in our yeshiva at a dinner, his 20 yo son was serving food to the bochrim at the other side of the table.
@ashergg
Sadly I don’t think that’s true. Lately its very in style to be torah vegdulah. People today like to be torahdik and “spritual” yet live lavishly. They answer it up saying this is part of being bnei melachim or hashem wants us to live like this. Its no longer true that those who live spirtual are detached from being lavish. That concept is gone. Thats exactly what must be emphasized again. Its fake spirtual that really has the opposite effect but it gets masked into torah vgedula or words like “bal habatish” as if thats a spritual thing.@In my humble opinion, I humbly disagree with your humble opnion. Even the people that can afford it, its wrong. Let the money stay in their pockets vs being loud and splashy. Its a detachment from hashem, brings down the entire level for others that see it etc. I listed the reasons above. Let me repeat what I have always said. There is no such thing as “I have a right” or “I am entitled”. We are jews and everything we do is for hashem,. Even if you give 1M to tzedaka the night of a wedding, you are NOT entitled to spend 1M in your wedding. Very nice you did a nice miztva and you’lll get schar. That’s not a free pass. One has nothing to do with the other. I don’t like this blame game that oh its the people that can’t afford’s fault. Wrong its the people that can afford too. The issue isn’t just spending money on what we can’t afford. Its about simply being luxirous for no reason.
@nevuah, similar to the above. Its not just about the people who can’t afford it. Even if you could afford it, its just nor the right thing to do. Its not the jewish way, and brings everyone down. I can elebaorate. I did that in above commnets. But we have to get this out of our head that oph its only bad for the people that can’t afford it. No being a show off and partying is bad for everyone.
Now to your other point, there is the idea of only what you can afford and there is the idea of yes conforming. A person has to be functional. You can’t be a werido and making a wedding in a shtibel with shnaps and cake bec you can’t afford it. And its wrong to do that to your children. So yes you need to be normal and conforming is indeed a jewish cconcept. To say one needs to be dysfucntional is just wrong too. So now if the society norms is now to give tomau to guests, send hostess packages to all hosting, invite outsiders for dessert on firday night etc, its very hard to sasy don’t do that. The line between conformoity and lavish gets more and more gray when rich dudes go over the top. But the answer isn’t to say don’t conform. And to repeat again, even if you could afford it, its wrong to be lavish and you aren’t entitled
”@Always_Ask_Questions
Tell that to aderi torah that boys should be banned from being in boxes and in fact those boxes should be closed an hour before the evenet starts@chaim87 The fact that some people live in their bubble of “torah igdula” doesn’t change the fact that the yeshiva system teaches the truth about torah. They don’t sing yomim at weddings when the “torah igdulah” guy walks in.
Sadly they basically do sing Yamin when the rich guy walks in. The idea that torah and being lavish don’t mix together, is almost completely lost in yeshivas. And the idea that as ling as we teach people to be torahdil that naturally falls in place is misguided. Furthermore, the yeshivas themelves compete who can have a fancier building. And then when a shul makes a syuim on Makkos in Lublin, touring Europe foe a week in luxury what does that teach? I get it kovod hatroah and we should be proud that we are making a syuim. Its also better than touring the bahams. But lets get real. This is where your idea that torah doesn’t go with being lavish is gone. Yeshivas and rabbonim need to start a movement like they did with the internet to put an end to this
Chaim….I hear you. But then you reap what you sow.
If you can’t live within the framework of what God gave you android you don’t have the strength to not conform
And make a beutifull event in a fancy shul, or heck even on a buetifull grounds like they did during covid, or doing something in the middle of that extreme and nowadays extreme. If your not willing to move even one inch in any direction, then stop crying you make your own bed.
I know countless of people who have changed the narrtive in thier lives of what is considered “normal” for this crazy society and yet thier wedding and event held more meaning because of its modesty, then any other wedding I ever was at. Stop crying if you want to be a sheep. Stop crying if you don’t want to live within the circumstances god gave you. And stop crying that it’s an “embarrassment” cuz you can make a gorgeous wedding litterly in a bar mitzvah hall or on a buetifull grounds like they did at covid and it can still look and be beutifull. My goodnessThats not “embarrassing” nobody said “poor” “shlemazel”
Your out of touch with the possiblity of change and with reality. No offense. You want change act like an individual with an individual reality@nevuah
Fair point and I am ready to move two inches not just one inch. But the problem won’t be solved unless the rich guys stop. Just telling me to move that one inch won’t help. Furthermore, the needle is moving so much, that me moving one inch is still 5 inches more than what used to be because the norms are so high.
Ill repeat that yes we are gald to tone it down but you can’t ruin your childrens lives and you don’t want them to cry to oyu by their simcha if its nebachdik. Its not fair to them. And so yes a little lower but up to a point and when the neddle is so far ahead thats hard. As an example, its now very rude and inconsiderate not to give hostess gifts when a neighbor hosts for you. It would be socially off to send bubbys cholcolate chip cookies as a gift. This is the new norm. This is just one of many.
My main point is, that its the rich guys that need to stop and we need to talk about them. Don”t white wash it by saying just talk about usKind of strange saying that over the top weddings raise the standard of the socially acceptable average wedding etc. that average people now can’t afford. What is average even. You could safely assume that there are hundreds of “levels” of wealth just within your circle, your community, people that you’d invite or would be invited to. This is totally not a rich wedding issue. Rich people do not raise the bar, they don’t change the expectations for average people. The socially acceptable standard for average weddings moves with what people can afford.
No one class is to blame for changing the standard, it’s a group effort, anyone making a wedding above average is guilty.
There are so many things that can be added or taken away from the standard to fit your budget. And guess what, the socially acceptable standard is different in different circles.
Someone mentioned something about a dessert table… I dno, honestly, ridiculous. Your wife doesn’t have friends who make desserts? Figure it out. You don’t need to shell out $5k more for a ridiculous addition. If you can’t make it happen at a normal budget just pass. No one’s forcing you. If you’re part of a circle of people who will talk behind your back because you didn’t have a dessert table or wtvr I honestly feel sorry for you.
It’s one thing to say that people shouldn’t be ostentatious. That making those weddings is not “toradig”. Fine. It’s another thing to tell them what they should do. It’s totally different to say what they are doing forces you to go over your budget. I haven’t gotten to that point yet, so maybe I don’t know exactly what that feels like. But it should not work like that.
Chaim I hear you, but once you start making your own choices. And living by your circumstances and you have the courage to become bigger then societal pressure and the degrading spiritual web that has hung over us for so long, when one person does this. And the next and the next. Their choices will not matter anymore. They will have no more control over the narrative. You will be free
Chaim. You still have to have the courage despite the norms, and do what works for _you_
A hostess gift. You did your best. This is what you can afford. The other party will have to deal with it. Their “insulted” theill get over it.
Be caragous.
Be strong. Be faithful and true to yourself. Stop stepping on glass for this crazy mess that we are in. You are going to have to find the courage to break out of these crazy norms. The small thing to the big thing.
You can still give a buetifull hostess gift that costs less.
It doesn’t matter what the change is.
Choose to go against the grain anyways.
This suffocating gridlock is too much. Someone has to take a stand.
Let that be you. Let that be all of us. Say no. No moreThe more we allow, this misalignment of extreme values to control us (and it does) the more spiritual gridlock we put on all of.
The second one of you, two of you, three of your have the courage to do what works for your specific circumstances….things will change.
It will change rapidly.
Right now it’s like a wall of ice so strong…..it’s suffocating everyone. But one chip at that wall. Two chips at that wall, will destroy it and the entire ocoen of crazy will come crashing down. It’s up to _you_ be caragousUser176
Saying it and saying it with such conviction might make it look like truth but it’s still not true@nevuah /@user176
A person can’t be socially off and weird. As an extreme example, you shouldn’t make a wedding in shul with shnaps and cake even though that’s all you can afford. And that’s what they did in DP camps. That’s just weird and off. It’s likely that your child will highly resent that. Similarly, a vort can’t just be in your friends making chocolate chips cookies in your tiny dinning room. It’s weird. Now where the line between weird and just lowering your standard is, is very gray . But the point is, as the rich push the standard up that gray line moves naturally just like it did for vorts
Just to reiterate, the issue of pushing up the standard for everyone is only one of many reasons that Rich shouldn’t make lavish weddings . There are 5 more reasons and it’s our business to tell themChaim. I understand what your saying but we aren’t taking chocolate and shnapps ok? Maybe a happy medium between that and the other extreme….if you don’t want to change you’ll come up with any excuse why you can’t do it. But if you do want to find a way, that is in balance between norms and your own needs you will find a way. I never said “frumpy” or “shlemazel” I said “think outside the box”
Let me ask you this if the norm was to buy a 300 doller winter jacket and if you didn’t your child would be “resentful” and “hate you”
Would you conform to that crazy despite their feelings. No you would not because even when something is pushed as “normal” it can still become crazy.
You need to take the norms. Shove them out the window and become your _own_ person.
I never said live like a pauper. I said live within your means if it means finding a way to present it properly but within your own budget.
And yes they made weddings like that in dp camps cuz that’s all they had.
Right now you have limited funds. What are you going to do. Cry or do and live within the confines of what God gave you despite the stupidity and crazy that socioty is giving youI never said a vort in your tiny dining room. Your stretching a bit. We live in a modern world with a mutiltude of affordable options we are just choosing the most extreme because we don’t want to “stand out” .what a weak society we are. Grow up. Have some faith. And stop folding to the whims of society. It’s dumb already. Your willingly suffering for stupidity because of fear. Where is your faith
Whatever your choice is your like a deer in headlights the fear of sticking out is keeping you completely frozen in time.
I never said something like “poor” I said change the narrtive, I never said embarrass yourself I said “live within your means”
If the norm became a full orchastra and you got a guy with a piano, to save money. Or maybe another guy as well to make it look the part but cheaper. That’s not chocolates and shnapps. You can still look good but with less.
My goodness you don’t want to change do you. You don’t want to live within your means you want to be just like everybody else.
But you never will be
Or you will try and continue to suffer the terrible consequences of fallowing the crowd like a sheep. Your an individual with individual circumstances stop cryingOne more thing. If people will reject you and or your kids for living with your means those people are not true friends or people with good character. So sorry
If your asking the poor to change entire standards because they have a hold over society you have power too to change the standards. You as an individual and as a collective.
Nobody holds the power it’s in _your_ hands as well. Its in your courage and your faith and in your circumstances
If one party has become suffocating for the rest it’s up to the collective to stop playing the game
One person who breaks through the cloud of control will allow others to break through too. And once that control is broken there will be true freedom. Until then trust me the rich won’t listen anyways. It’s up to us. Not them@nevuah
We agree that there is a medium. And of course the point is each of us tone down just a little bit but within what’s still societal norms. However, my point is, that as the rich push the standard higher and higher, the societal norms slowly move the needle. And then even what we tone down still becomes a mountain bec of how high the norm becomes. Furthermore but similar, most people won’t tone it down and so even if we do because we are nei aliyiah, it doesn’t move the standards. And the higher the rich push the higher we all have to go. There is also simply the fact that yes we do like kovod and get jealous. We are human. And the higher the rich go, the harder your challange becomes on a perosnal level to disregard it. This all leads to one direction. What the rich matters alot more than what I do.
Side note, Perosnally I don’t agree with the fundamental that making a simcha is about me. Rather its about the child., Sometimes, a child needs a nicer band or flowers and some children are Ok with less*rich I meant
Chaim I absolutely agree with you. “The rich matter alot more then what you do” true except that it’s your life and _you_ get to decide. Stop playing, stop conforming. Say no.
I don’t disagree it’s about the child but it’s also about what you can afford lol.
@nevuah
1) Re stop conforming, here is where I disagree. A person needs to conform. You have to be normal. Sorry. And if we can’t afford it then we need to borrow thats life. We can’t be a weirdo or socially off. So if everyone makes a vort, we need to as well. We can’t be weird and only serve shnaps and cake. Now there is a balance . And we don’t need to do whatever the rich guy does bec thats what we call normal. Obvioulsy, there is no flat line as to what everyone considers normal and we could always down that standard via pushing it to the lower end. But the vort is a good exmaple whereby you can’t get around that without being weird. And whether you make a fancy vort for 10K or simple one for 5K it still costs. Likewise the dress and make up etc. Your girls can’t show up in weekday cloths and no make up. Its just socially off. Well for a family of girls, getting the hair done , make up and an outfit still cost even if its a cheaper person who does it. And so my point remains that the more the rich push, even if you tone it down, your normal standrad without being a social misfit will just go up. Thats just whats “done today”.
2) My other points still remain. Its the rich fancy affairs that glazmoirize gashmyuis which has a bad hashpa on the young generation who see it as “cool”. Yes as parents we can preach its all sheker but kids go to schools where thats the hock and play with freinds etc. We don’t live in a bubble. We are an interactive society.
3) the rich themselves are pursuing gashmyuis and not focusing on the right things. When i as middle class make a simcha and splurge on an extra tray of pepper steak, thats not really pursuing gashymuis even though So Yes i can skip it and “tone it down” but i wouldn’t call that a pursuit of luxury.. Its very different than a destination wedding simcha. The actual pursut of luxury is against judiasmThis is points to one thing. The converstaion has to focus on the rich. of course middle class should do what they can to tone it down, but thats the wrong focus. the rich is by far the big problem.
Chaim87
How far are you going to go tho not to be a “weirdo”
For one culture being weird is xyz
And for another it’s xyzabcdfgqrstuv
How far are you going to go to be “normal”
Or are you going to actually be normal and live within the standards _God_ has set for you.
How long are you going to allow socioty to control your entire life?
Forever? For a century?
For millenia?
Walk away. That’s the only way to servive. The goal posts will always shift farther and farther away from reality.Chaim87
How far are you going to go tho not to be a “weirdo”
For one culture being weird is xyz
And for another it’s xyzabcdfgqrstuv
How far are you going to go to be “normal”
Or are you going to actually be normal and live within the standards _God_ has set for you.
How long are you going to allow socioty to control your entire life?
Forever? For a century?
For millenia?
What did they say was cowerdice again…“Cowardice is defined as a lack of courage or firmness of purpose, characterized by excessive fear that prevents an individual from taking risks or facing danger”
Right now, and I don’t mean to call you a derogatory term so forgive me….but right now socioty is holding you hostage to extreme fear of not fitting in.
You are going to have to find the courage within you to walk away. That’s the only way. Honestly.No not money. Your terrified and you need to stop, or at least have courage despite the fear. It’s time I think
Stop sacrificing yourself for the impossible standards of socioty and start connecting to God
Who set the circumstances of your life and will give you the strength to live with in them despite what “socioty” says.
Yes it takes great great courage to have impossible strength. the tide is so strong and so collective it feels almost impossible but let’s remember 3 things:
“When I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for _you_ are with me”
When you are with God, no amount of social pressure can move you. When you are doing what is righteous, no amount of social scorn can change you. When you are standing in the gap no amount of villification can break you.
Just look at Trump.
You need to have courage and massive amounts of faith.
It _takes_ courage and massive amount of faith.
Be strong. You can do this.I agree with nevuah. And chaim87, you keep mentioning the kids, the kids will have a hard time, who’s responsible. Parents are role models for the kids in most cases, especially when they witness righteousness and courageousness. A decent example is when the parents create a toradike environment in the home, the kids don’t get fazed to a point of jealousy at extravagant events (not young children. young children also cry for lollypops) , they appreciate it, but that’s it. Everyone sets the tone in their home, they decide what’s respected and what’s not respected. Your kids will follow your virtue.
@nevuah
I dsiagree with your premise. Hashem does not want you to stick out like a saw thumb. And its also bad for your children to be a misfit. An exmaple I sue all the time is a vort. It would be much cheaper to just serve shanps and cake in your home. But its just weird. Like I keep on sayiing, there is a gray area . To a certain extent, yes we need to hold back and not run to to everything everyone else does but within normal standards still. Thats just life. The more the rich push the standards the more it becomes to normal to ignore. The hostess package thing is another point. Yes I can just send homemade chocolate chip cookies as a thnaks for hosting my guests but its a weird thing to do. And your neighbor may nit host for you next time aside for just stikcing out@ashergg
1) We don’t live in a cave. Kids see and hear things. No matter how “torahdik” and simple we are, often kids will want more. You can try to impress whatever you want on them but society moves. Kids go to school and have friends. The nature of a person is to want more. Its not just the home in isolation. So when your kids see its cool because that6 rich guy had freid at a pool side BBQ (with a syuim of course) or that a rich guy made a fancy wedding, you can be torahdik and simple and say oh thats not what we aspire for. But the lure is still there. You can’t stop it. There are so many torahdik homes I know of whose kids are the biggest pursuers of gahsmyus. Some are very famous and wealthy. You think there fathers didn’t try to teach them better? Its abig world out there with a big lure. The home can’t fight society. But the society as a whole could chnage form the top down.
2) Yes as parents we have yetzer haras too. You can’t demand or expect we be perfect. yes we are mature bnut deep inside the allure of fancy things is cool by us too. Sure we should work on it but its a temptation that we must work in.
3) Yes you can’t deprive your child of whats social norms. If the bar is raised that high, too bad ytou can’t just dop things like they did in the 1980’s. Its not what hashem wnats and your kids will be mifits. Thats the hard facts.So this all points to that yes no matter how torahdik tone you set, there are extreme limtations. And the more the world moves higher in gashmyuis the more your limited in that. I don’t buy the arguemnt that if you just work on it at home, then all is good. The point is no we need to work on it as a society while also working on it at home. Without the society chnages your impact will be very limited.
Chaim. Again, I hear you, I’m not knocking what your saying cuz you have a point. But shnapps at a vort is…..the lowest level. I’m saying find a middle path. “Hashem doesn’t want me to stick out like a sore thumb”
We all stick out because no two people have the same circumstances and no two people’s lives are the same and no two people even look the same.
If you want to continue down this path of complelty negating your own circumstances and wallet for the impossible standards of socioty that just keep going higher and higher and higher, then that’s just….um your own problem at this point.
“Hashem doesn’t want me to stick out like a sore thumb”
Then why did he make you poor and the other guy rich.
Why did he give you your problems and the other guy the other problems
Clearly He wants you to live like He decided you should live. Not like you decided you should live lol.
It’s just fact within the reality of your circumstance and you can’t escape it.
Everytime you say this is the richs fault (which honestly I agree) but I also think this is your own fault for bowing to their ideals. Just like they have the freedom to change the narrtive for you, you have the freedom to change the narrtive for yourself.Listen the hostess package? Nobody says you should bake cookies. But you don’t have to buy 300 doller flowers either. Theres temu. “Live like a billionaire” you can easily look the part with less. (I was using temu as an example)
You _can_ find an alternative.
Or you can have the faith and stick out and not give a flying flip.
Which is it going to be? Absolute conformity, fear cowerdice? Or are you going to finally say no.
What is life without a little pushback lol. Maybe you should have more courage to be different. There’s nothing wrong with different.
Alot of old folk are rolling over in their graves right now with how materialistic delusional we have become. If your not willing to stand in the gap then don’t cry that it’s so hard to fit in. Your never going to be good enough for anyone anyways. Nobody ever is. Socioty is fickle judgmental and all I see is a bunch of people stepping on glass to look the part lol.
Your losing alot of your own self for this. And most people are losing themselves for this.
Its subtle but this loss of self is in every conversation, every interaction, just to fit in.
It’s a stupid unforgiving system
And I think it’s high time someone should have the courage to change the narrtive cuz the narrtive right now is just getting worse and it’s just dumbAlso why do you put so much emphasis on other people’s opinions? Thats a reflection of the stronghold socioty is having over everybody. It’s a spiritual illness. Why is it so important. Maybe because it’s become an idol. And idol of control.
There is no way “hashem” wants this.
Actually I think God himself would like someone to stand up and push back against this impossible level of delusional living. Maybe that should be you. Or maybe it should be someone else. But if you think hashem condones this? I don’t really and don’t fully believe so. This is starting to become a form of corruption because it’s making people feel unworthy for the dumbest stuff. That’s not biblical, that’s also not a reflection of what God would want from us.
I personally wouldn’t think so. Sorry@chaim87 I disagree. First of all, you keep talking about kids, and as i specified, kids want all kindsa things. I think the bochurim is the problem, and if they have strong examples, they’ll live by it. My solution is not approaching society’s problem, it’s giving you advice how to personally stay above it and not tie your kids down to the society’s disastrous flow.
I’m not denying the fact that the norm is beyond gone, i’m introducing you to a healthy mindset. If you live by this and you mean it, your kids will follow.
And again, this doesn’t mean that a 12 yo girl won’t compare herself to her friends.Sorry I didn’t read your second message. The question is where is the line of when you say no to your kids.
Is it the 300 doller jacket they ask for cuz everyone is wearing it or is it some other conveluted crazy. The goal posts keep changing and teenagers especially are extremely fickle and judgmental.
Being different builds character. I’m most circumstances excluding extreme poverty. I don’t think we even live lives anywhere near extreme poverty. We live in an ivory tower of a abject deluson. Part of parenting is saying no when life calls for it. Sorry@nevuah
“I’m saying find a middle path. ” Agree but the “middle” moves when the rich raise the bar. Thats the whole point. You hit it. This is why its the rich we need to focus on more than the middle classOr you can have the faith and stick out and not give a flying flip.
Hashem wants you to do whats right and not do things for others. true. But a perosn has to be normal. The idea of not giving a flying flip is wrong too.8 Myabe if you the chaftez chaim then yes. But your average person has to be normal.
There is a differnece between worrying every minute what yenim will think about you vs not giving a flip. And again this talks to the idea, that the higher the rich raise the bar the higher normal moves too. Yes techncially if I didn’t give a flip id just have shnaps and cake by a vort and finished. But now it cost money and its strain.Yes but normal keeps moving. When are you just going to stop playing and live normal like yourself or what you decide is normal. In the name of not sticking out it seems your losing your grounding and that is selling yourself to fit in at the whins of whatever the forces are in the system. That’s why sticking to your guns is important so you don’t get carried away with social norms. As they are fickle and ever changing.
This is quite like biblical morals. Morals don’t change cuz times change. When you have enough courage to say no you’ll stop living on a twisted reality.
Remember Everytime you give in to the quelms of ever changing goal posts you lose yourself more and more. You _are_ paying for that with your soul and lifestyle. Lol
Maybe it’s time to say. Yes this might be normal but I also think it’s abnormal and stick to your guns.Your paying with your life and happiness. This is why boundaries are important. In any other scenario in life would you give in? Or would you say no. Start saying no. Lol
I know it’s hard cuz socioty can be suffocating. But who gives a damn. Have some strength. Honestly people may judge but then they move on. And anyways if your not accepted for being yourself then why would you allow socioty to dictate your self worth. It’s kind of sad what the world has come to. You are paying a very steep price to fit in….it used to be the rich were rich and poor were poor. If your poor your poor. And the rich do whatever they do with their money. Now you have to make a choice. Will I let the rich dictate what I choose or not.
It’s not simple but it’s a requirement for a happy life. Lol
It’s worth it to you to pay with your happiness and self respect?
I personally wouldn’t pay with those things as self respect is as important as fitting in.
Living within your means and not selling yourself has something that comes with it. It builds character.
Character requires you to say no when the time calls for it otherwise you become a slave to socioty.
I’m not sure why _that_ is worth it to you. It wouldn’t be worth it to me personally.
It’s like saying “God I don’t like what I was given therefore I’m going to sell every vestige of humanity I have to fit into a socioty that has zero respect for me and my circumstances”
Your selling yourself short.
Yes your right you don’t want to “stick out” but at what cost. To your own sanity. I don’t think it’s worth it honestly.
When your ready to say no you’ll become stronger and those material things that make you feel you made it will matter much much less. HonestlyI see references to social norms. You obviously have some capacity to not follow them as you are not eating treif or going to church.
Same way you could resist a norm of not declaring taxes and buying stuff you can’t afford. So, if you let your kids be influenced by such people, it is because you don’t feel it is not that important to you.
If you keep cholov yisroel, you explain to the kid that he may not eat, or go, to houses of those who don’t. Apply same approach to middos you value.
I wonder if selling your soul and livelihood to the masses opinion of what you should be doing is a form of idolitry, for example (and I’m not trying to be dramatic just giving perspective),
God gave you specific circumstances right? But instead of living within them your saying: well I’m not happy with you gave me God I want what he has and then I’ll spend all my time trying to get what the other guy has, or living like the other guy because you can’t come to terms with your own life circumstances.
Your sacrificing yourself on the alter of materialism only to lose your self worth, dignity and character and true self in the process.
“Do not place other gods before me” perhaps can translate to the material world as I’m don’t place yourself in others circumstances because they are not what God wants from you specifically.
Great suffering comes from selling yourself to those who don’t accept you as you are anyway.
A fickle socioty isn’t true friends regardless. Maybe focus on what is important to you. Not what is important to everyone else. and realize that if God gave you what you have then he will also give you the strength to to live in these circumstances despite what the naysayers say.
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