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First of all, ya’all can start with yourselves.
Lol
Don’t wait for other people to change their spots. Start living your own life working within your own circumstances
.if you can only afford a shul for the wedding hall, start making wedding halls in a fancy shul. _you_ need to have the courage
And one person that makes the step will give space for others to do so.
It’s not up to us to change others. They will never change..but we can do something.
Stop conforming. Stop paying the bill. Stop paying the price.
The choice is yours not theirs@nevuah
The start with yourself idea whitewashes the issue very much. Most of us middle class aren’t tyring to make over the top. We are just trying to be gracious and practical. It also doesn’t really set the general tone like the wealthy do. It really doesn’t solve the issue. The issue will still remain that the welathy fancy stuff are against everything judiasm stands for@Chaim87 Those who don’t live a spiritual life will always use alternatives to fill the void. Showing off ones luxurious taste and spending ability is what we call “kavod”, importing tiles from italy is another way of filling the void of purpose. The rabbaim and leaders could preach in a way that they separately address every method one can fill the void, or they could preach that one shall live be a ben torah and fill his days with torah study which is tackling all the “gashmius” problems with the ultimate solution. The second approach is the common practice of the yeshiva system. Besides, there is somewhat of an emphasis made in the bal habatishe communities by the LOR’s about gashmius, but it isn’t highly effective in most cases for the simple reason of there being a void that must be filled.
Many people here have written very smart opinions and ideas, and many ideas how to tackle the problem, and as much as most of it might be true, I want to add one point…
I have no problem that these ashirim are spending this ridiculous money on a 5 hour show off event, I actually think its a good thing, otherwise this money would sit in their pockets, as you can see from the way they spend it you see they are not very purposeful, and wouldn’t use it for real purpose like helping our brothers who are struggling, their view on money and life is if I can say very similar to a goys view on money and life, so I rather they spend it and not keep it in their pocket, and we rather they spend it on weddings where at the end of the day alot of this money if not all are supporting family’s, the caterer, the singer, the stores where the food is bought, the florist, and more, and not spend it like the goyim who as I mentioned they are not far from that, who would spend it on yachts planes villas, where most if not all money would then go to goyim….
The only issue in my opinion is the people who do more then they can afford due to pressure, and nebach think people look upto them if only people would more often tell them in their face what a fool they look, and how it’s only the little 10yo who is discussing the next day exactly how mad they went on their child’s wedding, the mature adults won’t spare a single breath to discuss a day later what flower exactly they spend on for abit of foolish attention
I have no problem that these ashirim are spending this ridiculous money on a 5 hour show off event, I actually think its a good thing, otherwise this money would sit in their pockets, as you can see from the way they spend it you see they are not very purposeful, and wouldn’t use it for real purpose like helping our brothers who are struggling, their view on money and life is if I can say very similar to a goys view on money and life, so I rather they spend it and not keep it in their pocket, and we rather they spend it on weddings where at the end of the day alot of this money if not all are supporting family’s, the caterer, the singer, the stores where the food is bought, the florist, and more, and not spend it like the goyim who as I mentioned they are not far from that, who would spend it on yachts planes villas, where most if not all money would then go to goyim….
The only issue in my opinion is the people who do more then they can afford due to pressure, and nebach think people look upto them if only people would more often tell them in their face what a fool they look, and how it’s only the little 10yo who is discussing the next day exactly how mad they went on their child’s wedding, the mature adults won’t spare a single breath to discuss a day later what flower exactly they spend on for abit of foolish attention
I have no problem that these ashirim are spending this ridiculous money on a 5 hour show off event, I actually think its a good thing, otherwise this money would sit in their pockets, as you can see from the way they spend it you see they are not very purposeful, and wouldn’t use it for real purpose like helping our brothers who are struggling, their view on money and life is if I can say very similar to a goys view on money and life, so I rather they spend it and not keep it in their pocket, and we rather they spend it on weddings where at the end of the day alot of this money if not all are supporting family’s, the caterer, the singer, the stores where the food is bought, the florist, and more, and not spend it like the goyim who as I mentioned they are not far from that, who would spend it on yachts planes villas, where most if not all money would then go to goyim….
The only issue in my opinion is the people who do more then they can afford due to pressure, and nebach think people look upto them if only people would more often tell them in their face what a fool they look, and how it’s only the little 10yo who is discussing the next day exactly how mad they went on their child’s wedding, the mature adults won’t spare a single breath to discuss a day later what flower exactly they spend on for abit of foolish attention
We need to start laughing at them in their face
Chaim87 I understand you and something tells me this impossible suffocating conformity has something to do with it. So much so people feel embarrassed to live with their means. It feels unfair.
But being different, doing the right thing. _never_ felt easy. It takes lots of courage.
But isn’t courage worth it? That you do what works for you despite what the naysayers say, so that you can have true freedom?This is also why we need to focus on faith, and transcend these norms by focusing on God. because what humans define us as, what they decide for us who we are, how they look only at how we present ourselves, make us walk all over eggshells to fit in, scorn us and dehumanize us because they control the narrative, we need to find the inner strength to focus on something bigger then that. Something that transcends all that. Something that is above that. And find strength in that despite the suffocating, “norms”
God is bigger then these norms, having faith, transcends these norms, courage asks us to face these norms and live a different way. A better way.
Instead of getting straighth or being destroyed by the crowd focus on something biggerChaim > Boys should be banned from being on that floor.
I’ve seen one billionaire when he was honored in our yeshiva at a dinner, his 20 yo son was serving food to the bochrim at the other side of the table.
@ashergg
Sadly I don’t think that’s true. Lately its very in style to be torah vegdulah. People today like to be torahdik and “spritual” yet live lavishly. They answer it up saying this is part of being bnei melachim or hashem wants us to live like this. Its no longer true that those who live spirtual are detached from being lavish. That concept is gone. Thats exactly what must be emphasized again. Its fake spirtual that really has the opposite effect but it gets masked into torah vgedula or words like “bal habatish” as if thats a spritual thing.@In my humble opinion, I humbly disagree with your humble opnion. Even the people that can afford it, its wrong. Let the money stay in their pockets vs being loud and splashy. Its a detachment from hashem, brings down the entire level for others that see it etc. I listed the reasons above. Let me repeat what I have always said. There is no such thing as “I have a right” or “I am entitled”. We are jews and everything we do is for hashem,. Even if you give 1M to tzedaka the night of a wedding, you are NOT entitled to spend 1M in your wedding. Very nice you did a nice miztva and you’lll get schar. That’s not a free pass. One has nothing to do with the other. I don’t like this blame game that oh its the people that can’t afford’s fault. Wrong its the people that can afford too. The issue isn’t just spending money on what we can’t afford. Its about simply being luxirous for no reason.
@nevuah, similar to the above. Its not just about the people who can’t afford it. Even if you could afford it, its just nor the right thing to do. Its not the jewish way, and brings everyone down. I can elebaorate. I did that in above commnets. But we have to get this out of our head that oph its only bad for the people that can’t afford it. No being a show off and partying is bad for everyone.
Now to your other point, there is the idea of only what you can afford and there is the idea of yes conforming. A person has to be functional. You can’t be a werido and making a wedding in a shtibel with shnaps and cake bec you can’t afford it. And its wrong to do that to your children. So yes you need to be normal and conforming is indeed a jewish cconcept. To say one needs to be dysfucntional is just wrong too. So now if the society norms is now to give tomau to guests, send hostess packages to all hosting, invite outsiders for dessert on firday night etc, its very hard to sasy don’t do that. The line between conformoity and lavish gets more and more gray when rich dudes go over the top. But the answer isn’t to say don’t conform. And to repeat again, even if you could afford it, its wrong to be lavish and you aren’t entitled
”@Always_Ask_Questions
Tell that to aderi torah that boys should be banned from being in boxes and in fact those boxes should be closed an hour before the evenet starts@chaim87 The fact that some people live in their bubble of “torah igdula” doesn’t change the fact that the yeshiva system teaches the truth about torah. They don’t sing yomim at weddings when the “torah igdulah” guy walks in.
Sadly they basically do sing Yamin when the rich guy walks in. The idea that torah and being lavish don’t mix together, is almost completely lost in yeshivas. And the idea that as ling as we teach people to be torahdil that naturally falls in place is misguided. Furthermore, the yeshivas themelves compete who can have a fancier building. And then when a shul makes a syuim on Makkos in Lublin, touring Europe foe a week in luxury what does that teach? I get it kovod hatroah and we should be proud that we are making a syuim. Its also better than touring the bahams. But lets get real. This is where your idea that torah doesn’t go with being lavish is gone. Yeshivas and rabbonim need to start a movement like they did with the internet to put an end to this
Chaim….I hear you. But then you reap what you sow.
If you can’t live within the framework of what God gave you android you don’t have the strength to not conform
And make a beutifull event in a fancy shul, or heck even on a buetifull grounds like they did during covid, or doing something in the middle of that extreme and nowadays extreme. If your not willing to move even one inch in any direction, then stop crying you make your own bed.
I know countless of people who have changed the narrtive in thier lives of what is considered “normal” for this crazy society and yet thier wedding and event held more meaning because of its modesty, then any other wedding I ever was at. Stop crying if you want to be a sheep. Stop crying if you don’t want to live within the circumstances god gave you. And stop crying that it’s an “embarrassment” cuz you can make a gorgeous wedding litterly in a bar mitzvah hall or on a buetifull grounds like they did at covid and it can still look and be beutifull. My goodnessThats not “embarrassing” nobody said “poor” “shlemazel”
Your out of touch with the possiblity of change and with reality. No offense. You want change act like an individual with an individual reality@nevuah
Fair point and I am ready to move two inches not just one inch. But the problem won’t be solved unless the rich guys stop. Just telling me to move that one inch won’t help. Furthermore, the needle is moving so much, that me moving one inch is still 5 inches more than what used to be because the norms are so high.
Ill repeat that yes we are gald to tone it down but you can’t ruin your childrens lives and you don’t want them to cry to oyu by their simcha if its nebachdik. Its not fair to them. And so yes a little lower but up to a point and when the neddle is so far ahead thats hard. As an example, its now very rude and inconsiderate not to give hostess gifts when a neighbor hosts for you. It would be socially off to send bubbys cholcolate chip cookies as a gift. This is the new norm. This is just one of many.
My main point is, that its the rich guys that need to stop and we need to talk about them. Don”t white wash it by saying just talk about usKind of strange saying that over the top weddings raise the standard of the socially acceptable average wedding etc. that average people now can’t afford. What is average even. You could safely assume that there are hundreds of “levels” of wealth just within your circle, your community, people that you’d invite or would be invited to. This is totally not a rich wedding issue. Rich people do not raise the bar, they don’t change the expectations for average people. The socially acceptable standard for average weddings moves with what people can afford.
No one class is to blame for changing the standard, it’s a group effort, anyone making a wedding above average is guilty.
There are so many things that can be added or taken away from the standard to fit your budget. And guess what, the socially acceptable standard is different in different circles.
Someone mentioned something about a dessert table… I dno, honestly, ridiculous. Your wife doesn’t have friends who make desserts? Figure it out. You don’t need to shell out $5k more for a ridiculous addition. If you can’t make it happen at a normal budget just pass. No one’s forcing you. If you’re part of a circle of people who will talk behind your back because you didn’t have a dessert table or wtvr I honestly feel sorry for you.
It’s one thing to say that people shouldn’t be ostentatious. That making those weddings is not “toradig”. Fine. It’s another thing to tell them what they should do. It’s totally different to say what they are doing forces you to go over your budget. I haven’t gotten to that point yet, so maybe I don’t know exactly what that feels like. But it should not work like that.
Chaim I hear you, but once you start making your own choices. And living by your circumstances and you have the courage to become bigger then societal pressure and the degrading spiritual web that has hung over us for so long, when one person does this. And the next and the next. Their choices will not matter anymore. They will have no more control over the narrative. You will be free
Chaim. You still have to have the courage despite the norms, and do what works for _you_
A hostess gift. You did your best. This is what you can afford. The other party will have to deal with it. Their “insulted” theill get over it.
Be caragous.
Be strong. Be faithful and true to yourself. Stop stepping on glass for this crazy mess that we are in. You are going to have to find the courage to break out of these crazy norms. The small thing to the big thing.
You can still give a buetifull hostess gift that costs less.
It doesn’t matter what the change is.
Choose to go against the grain anyways.
This suffocating gridlock is too much. Someone has to take a stand.
Let that be you. Let that be all of us. Say no. No moreThe more we allow, this misalignment of extreme values to control us (and it does) the more spiritual gridlock we put on all of.
The second one of you, two of you, three of your have the courage to do what works for your specific circumstances….things will change.
It will change rapidly.
Right now it’s like a wall of ice so strong…..it’s suffocating everyone. But one chip at that wall. Two chips at that wall, will destroy it and the entire ocoen of crazy will come crashing down. It’s up to _you_ be caragousUser176
Saying it and saying it with such conviction might make it look like truth but it’s still not true
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