May one eat milky and meaty during the same meal without bentching in between?

Home Forums Yom Tov Shavuos May one eat milky and meaty during the same meal without bentching in between?

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  • #609300

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    I have always thought that one may not have milchigs and fleishigs during the same seuda and this is how we have been ????. But the ???? ????? in 2 places seems to say differently.

    At the end of ???? ??? the ???? ????? says that one may not eat milk and meat with the same bread, so on shavuos after eating milky we should bring a new bread, change the tablecloth, wash our mouth well and thats it… ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????

    I also remember learning in ????? ????? that if 3 people eat at the same table and one eats hard cheese while the other 2 eat meat then they cannot be ????? in a ?????, but if he eats soft cheese then they can make a ????? as he could join them if he wants – meaning, of course, join without bentching first of course! So again we see that one could eat milky besides hard cheese and still eat meat during the same meal without first bentching.

    I think the minhag not eat meat and milk during the same meal comes from kabbalah.

    Can anyone elaborate?

    #1017634

    147
    Participant

    If the “Milky” being consumed is not “Halachically Hard Cheese” then after the various Hachonos you Shtiky Guy have already mentioned, may proceed to consume “Meaty” at the same meal.

    #1017635

    E-O-M
    Participant

    Sephardim are ????

    I have heard that Hacham ovadia starts his meal with dairy on Shavuot and has a piece of pareve in between to be able to change To meat which is the real mitzva along with red wine.

    #1017636

    147
    Participant

    should bring a new bread Simulating the Shtei haLechem which are offered on Shovu’os.

    along with red wine However on the 1st nite, the only nite in Israel, if planning to stay awake all nite, keep this wine down to some 3% alcohol wine or so, so that the wine dosn’t make you drowsy for Tikun Leil Shovu’os.

    #1017637

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The one meal thing comes from a Zohar in Parshas Mishpatim cited by the poskim in YD 89:

    ?? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????, ?? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ???, ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ??????, ?????? ?????

    He talks about eating milk and meat in the same meal.

    However, he does not indicate that he is talking about milk before meat or meat before milk. He may or may not have been.

    Since we have Gemaras and Rishonim and a Shulchan Aruch which make no mention of an issur to eat milk before meat in the same meal, it makes sense from a halachic standpoint to either say the strict halacha is not in accordance with the Zohar, or better yet – that the Zohar was never disagreeing with the way we saw things until now, because he was simply talking about the case of meat before milk, not milk before meat.

    Therefore, while one may certainly choose to be machmir, there is very solid halachic basis for not being makpid on separate meals for milk before meat.

    #1017638

    rebdoniel
    Member

    You’d need to eat something parve and wash out the mouth in between.

    A person’s yom tov meals should involve meat, but I see nothing wrong with doing an all-dairy meal if this brings a person simcha.

    #1017639

    Toi
    Participant

    argh. i hate english people. milky. meaty. what the heck.

    #1017640

    Sam2
    Participant

    147: We do not “simulate” the Shtei Halechem. That is probably an Issur of Mechze K’kodshim Bachutz. What you meant to say was in order to remember the Shtei Halechem.

    #1017641

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Thanks everyone for your replies, especially to yitayningwut for the direct quote!

    should bring a new bread

    Simulating the Shtei haLechem

    which are offered on Shovu’os.

    It is actually a must to have a new bread when moving from milky foods to meaty, not merely to simulate the shtei lechem but a chiyuv.

    In fact, the Rema says that the reason for milky foods is just that they will en passant necessitate a second bread when changing to meat, and will therefore remind us of the shtei halechem

    #1017642

    writersoul
    Member

    I don’t know about separate meals with separate hamotzis, per se, but I think that all you need to transition from milchigs to fleishigs is kinuach and hadacha, no?

    #1017643

    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    I think that all you need to transition from milchigs to fleishigs is kinuach and hadacha, no?

    And a change of tablecloth (says mishnah berurah quoted in the OP).

    #1017644

    Toi
    Participant

    Sam2- the issur would be copying an avodah bachutz. probably, if there is any isur, you would have to do tinufah with the lechem. actually, heyos the tnufah was done w/ the shtei kvasim, maybe you need them too in order to be oiver. hmm, ill think about it.

    #1017645

    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    Pre-Shavous Bump™

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