- This topic has 101 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I dON’T SEE ANY REASON IT SHOULD BE ASSUR
It’s no better than an elevator, which is frowned upon by many poskim. I believe there’s a Tzitz Eliezer on it.
According to some poskim if your weight influences the amount of electricity used it is prohibited. Certainly if it was started by or for a Jew (or even if the majority of the users are Jewish).
It’s no better than an elevator,
Elevator doors have a number of safety sensors that aren’t on escalators,
Ask your LOR
Does it go slower if people are on it?
Daas Yochid: Again, you perplex me. An escalator ins on a continuous cycle and there is absolutely no “melocho” in sight. I don’t see why it can be ossur. As far as an elevator goes, there are numerous “Shabbos” elevators in the world, sanctioned to be muttar by the greatest poskim
An escalator ins on a continuous cycle and there is absolutely no “melocho” in sight. I don’t see why it can be ossur.
There are types of escalators that run very slowly until someone steps on, then the escalator gets up to normal speed until it’s empty again. BG airport has these, and I’ve seen them elsewhere as well.
DY: Please show me that TZ”E. I cannot imagine why an escalator would be Assur if it’s constantly running.
I can’t see why it would be assur, but have no idea.
Logically it would seem most use more electricity to move if additional weight is on it.
Sam, I thought his second reason (based on Chasam Sofer was relevant):
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14500&st=&pgnum=158
See also: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/elevator_psak.jpg, particularly Rav Vosners’s.
I agree with Joseph. There’s a debate about the permissibility of specially constructed Shabbos elevators, but escalators are likely in the category of regular elevators, which the accepted psak is not to use (except perhaps b’sha’as had’chak).
Daas Yochid: Your statement defies logic. Elevators have to be operated and Shabbos elevators-allowed by most Poskim- operate automatically. Escalators are absolutely akin to automatic Shabbos elevators-as a matter of act better because-if you have followed the technical aspect of elevators- there was a question of increased electrical output- which is NOT the case with escalators.
DY and Joseph: As of now, escalators (in the US, at least) do not change how much energy they use regardless of who or what is on it.
DY: I don’t see how it’s Uvdin D’chol. It’s not related to any Asei at all, really. Escalators are not bicycles.
Do escalator motors use more electricity if more people are on it?
Also, from R’ Karelitz and R’ Kanievsky, it seems they were misinformed as to how Shabbos elevators work. There are good reasons to Asser, but from their description it seems they are under the impression that the amount of electricity used changes when someone is on it.
I’m getting a bit off topic, but how often would one encounter an escalator on Shabbos? Elevators, on the other hand, are fairly common, even in old buildings.
I mean, just in terms of cost/value, an escalator only connects two floors together, whereas elevators can service many floors.
Plus, in terms of building design escalators need ample horizontal space most often found in resort or casino hotels, train stations, airports, etc. (I have seen one in a supermarket in FL), not the typical shul, apartment building or average hotel.
Daas Yochid: Your statement defies logic.
No, it’s just outside your realm of knowledge.
DY and Joseph: As of now, escalators (in the US, at least) do not change how much energy they use regardless of who or what is on it.
How would they not? Unless specifically constructed for Shabbos, it would seem to be a waste of energy to carry less weight at the same speed using the same amount.
DY: I don’t see how it’s Uvdin D’chol. It’s not related to any Asei at all, really. Escalators are not bicycles.
It seems not everyone holds it needs to be. There are definitely poskim who consider elevators to always (no matter how they’re constructed) be zilzul Shabbos – Rav Vosner seems to say it, the Tzitz Eliezer I linked seems to be using reasoning which would apply to any case where a human is being transported by non-human power, and there are probably others.
blubluh: Escalators are very familiar in hotels where there are many open spaces and levels. And if you have to go through a train station or so, you will also encounter them.
Here it is mashma that R’ Vosner hold there’s an issue aside from melacha:
Here ???? ???? says ????. His reasoning has nothing to do with electricity.
According to two sources I found, escalators will use more energy when it has passengers versus when it does not. And the more weight, the more electricity.
Daas Yochid: The “Chelkas Yaakov” is not talking about automatic elevators.
I do take umbrage at your snide remark. I have always been respectful of your views. Give me the same courtesy.
Lastly, escalators do not consume more electricity with more people on it. It is static energy. Check it out.
Daas Yochid: The “Chelkas Yaakov” is not talking about automatic elevators.
According to his reasoning, it would make no difference.
I do take umbrage at your snide remark. I have always been respectful of your views. Give me the same courtesy.
Nothing to take umbrage at. You called my statement logic defying (and I guess thought that was courteous and respectful of my view?) when it is the opinion of some of the gedolei haposkim, which obviously means you were unaware of them.
What is static energy? I tried googling it and all the results were for static electricity. I’m sure that’s not what you meant
If we had the technology to transport additional weight at no additional energy cost, the world would be very different. Elevators HAVE to use more energy when there are 400 lbs of people in them. The fact that Shabbos elevators are not assur must imply that those poskim were OK with that extra energy usage for whatever reason. I’ve never understood how walking through the motion sensor on the door is mutar on those. If they disengaged it, it would mean the elevator door could potentially crush someone to death on a Shabbos elevator, so I refuse to believe it’s inactive on Shabbos.
DY: Do any of your sources say that Shabbos elevators are mutar, but escalators are not? I’m curious, because it does seem like escalators would be less problematic.
Which motion sensor, NCB?
Also, why do you assume it a given if someone approves of a Shabbos elevator he approves of an escalator? The Shabbos elevator presumably has special features/functions to make it acceptable to those rabbis on Shabbos (I’m not sure what they are), whereas the escalator is standard unit without any special Shabbos accommodations.
The fact that Shabbos elevators are not assur must imply that those poskim were OK with that extra energy usage for whatever reason.
Some Shabbos elevators are specially designed to use the same amount of electricity no matter the weight inside.
I’ve never understood how walking through the motion sensor on the door is mutar on those.
I would guess that the doors are programmed to stay open for a set amount of time, and that one would need to enter within that time period.
DY: Do any of your sources say that Shabbos elevators are mutar, but escalators are not? I’m curious, because it does seem like escalators would be less problematic.
No, they aren’t specifically addressing escalators, probably because of blubluh’s point, but I don’t see why those who asser elevators would be mattir escalators. To quote the Chelkas Yaakov, ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??, ???? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? (?? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????) ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????
Although his words were said to compare an elevator to a train, the same could be said for an escalator.
BTW, rabbiofberlin, earlier in the teshuvah, he specifically says that he is also addressing automatic elevators:
??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ???
??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???????, ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???
Joseph: Elevators have motion sensors so that the doors will no close of people. It would be against civil law to have an escalator that is prone to crushing people. There are doors that re-open when they hit someone, perhaps all Shabbos elevators have these. Normal ones would not, so I don’t see how some people hold that it’s muttar to use a regular elevator when a goy presses the buttons.
DY: I did not know that about the programming of Shabbos elevators. I guess they must go slightly slower when they have weight in them if they don’t use more energy. Still, that makes me question even more how people are okay with the goy-button-pressing. I agree with the train analogy. I was never disagreeing with you about escalators being assur, I was more arguing that we should be questioning elevators more; sometimes my analogies end up coming across reversed.
NCB: I would assume that, as long as you walk in during the Muttar time, the door sensor is considered a Psik Reisha D’lo Nicha Leih. That’s the only thing I can think of.
About letting a non-Jew push the buttons. I think the theory is that when you get in, you are doing nothing to the elevator vis-a-vis your weight. Sure, a Melacha will happen one the elevator starts to move, but that’s a Grama at worst because right now all you’re doing is standing there. If you walked in after the Goy pushed the button and while the elevator was about to start to move, it would be more of a problem. But if you’re in there before a button is even pressed, then it’s for sure nothing more than a Grama by being Shev V’al Ta’aseh when he pushes the button.
I have been told that R’ Schachter and many others are Meikel using a Goy to push the elevator if there is a significant number of stairs. The logic is that it’s a Shvus (Amira L’akum) Dishvus (electricity) BeMakom Oneg Shabbos because walking up a ton of stairs is a lack of Oneg Shabbos. R’ Schachter has also said that it’s Assur to move into a building Lechatchilah where you know that this will be the case.
Since nobody here has claimed to be an elevator or escalator repairman, I think lots of you are talking through your hat (it may be a Borsalino, but it’s still not edifying). That said, I’ve been on lots of non-Shabbos elevators that have what’s apparently called a door safety edge, which is a mechanical switch. With such a safety device, there’s no infrared motion sensor.
Daas Yochid: Al I know is “puk mo amo diber”. There are numerous Shabbos elevators throughout the world, in hotels, in hospitals ,etc…- accepted and used by tens of thousands of jews.
So, whatever Possek you may quote , it is accepted that one can use it. You are welcome to any chumro you may wish but the klal does not have to accept it. And, you still have not given any logical reason why escalators, that run continually, should not be used. And, by the way, the fact that -maybe- more energy is used when there are more people does not make it ossur. Opening an closing your front door on Shabbos makes the heating work harder. Opening and closing the door of a refrigerator -even when the motor is running-will make the motor go longer. Just living in a house or apartment will make the boiler or the air conditioner work harder. Extra energy is not a measure of what is ossur or muttar.
RoB: So I guess you can turn up a stove burner on Shabbos? Turn up the brightness on a light with a dimmer? All of the things you mentioned are exceptions because they only might cause more energy to be used. If something definitely causes it, it’s different.
yehudayona: I mentioned the kind with that mechanical switch, but many newer models don’t have that. Like I said, perhaps the Shabbos elevators have it, but it’s becoming rare otherwise.
Interestingly, our Rav once told me to use the escalator rather than the shabbos elevator. I was in the hospital with an elderly relative over Yom Kippur and needed to go up and down (from operating/recovery room back to room). He did not hold of Shabbos elevators, but this was 18 flights – while fasting – so he told me the best option was escalators (which ran between several floors) alternating with stairs
See “Halachic Issues CommonlyEncountered During a Hotel Stay on Shabbat
and Yom Tov” Rabbi Joshua Flug (on-line) regarding the above issues. With the proliferation of motion detectors and surveillance cameras it will probably become necessary to adopt the lenient opinions insofar as public places and hotel rooms are concerned. Of course, in one’s own home one should be machmir.
Littleeema, that is fascinating. Could you ask him why he preferred the escalator?
Re: Sensors in a Shabbos elevator – the way the Shabbos elevators I’m familiar with work is that the doors remain open at each floor for a given amount of time, after which a buzzer sounds for a few seconds, and then the doors close. It was explained to me that the sensor is de-activated when the door is open but the buzzer is not sounding – and part of the reason for the buzzer is to let people know that the sensor is active and they should not pass through. That way, there is no Melacha issue (since the sensor is inactive when people get on and off), and no safety issue (since the doors will not try to close when there is no active sensor).
Re: escalators in general on Shabbos – I can’t speak to Shabbos, but I’ve had two situations where I was told that it was not an issue to use an escalator on Yom Tov. These, though, may not be germane to the issue at hand as 1) using an electric current that is already on on Yom Tov for something that is a “davar hashaveh l’kol nefesh” is generally mutar, even if it causes an increase in the current; and 2) once was when it was Yom Tov Sheni and I was in Chutz LaAretz, so it wasn’t actually even Yom Tov for me – though in public (and according to many/most poskim, even in private), I was not allowed to do Melacha.
an Israeli Yid
http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-20%20The%20Use%20of%20Elevators%20on%20Shabbat%20-%20Part%201.htm
http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-21%20The%20Use%20of%20Elevators%20on%20Shabbat%20-%20Part%202.htm
http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-22%20Elevators%20on%20Shabbat%20-%20Part%203.htm
http://koltorah.org/ravj/13-23%20Elevators%20on%20Shabbat%20-%20Part%204.htm
aIY: And if a person attempts to run in the Shabbos elevator as the doors are closing, the elevator will pin the person between the doors and the wall – or, rather, the sensor will activate even though it is on Shabbos mode?
Joseph,
Is sounds like the buzzer indicates that the sensor is now active and you shouldn’t run through
Moderator, please clarify the policy on posting links.
It is at our discretion. If a moderator is familiar with the content and context of a link, he or she may decide to allow it.
Additionally, if it contains other links it is less likely to be approved
NevilleChaimBerlin: As you see, there are other,more qualified Poskim who are dealing with the issues mentioned. However, the answer to your question is easy: Opening a refrigerator door will allow warm air to enter and make the motor to run longer. Opening your door to a house, will allow cold air to enter and the heating will have to work longer. Hence, the extra energy-especially when it is already working- is not an issue.
Only because it is indirect, unintended, and is not certain to occur immediately.
With most elevators and escalators, it will occur right away.
Thanks, Cherrybim. According to the last part of the article, Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchasa (Rav Neuwirth) mattirs the use of escalators. I just looked it up, and it is indeed in there.
Since nobody here has claimed to be an elevator or escalator repairman, I think lots of you are talking through your hat (it may be a Borsalino, but it’s still not edifying). That said, I’ve been on lots of non-Shabbos elevators that have what’s apparently called a door safety edge, which is a mechanical switch. With such a safety device, there’s no infrared motion sensor.
I’m not an elevator repairperson but I’ll still chime in on the door safety features. Most modern elevators include all if the following.
1) A proximity sensor to prevent the door from closing if someone is approaching.
2) A light beam (or more likely 2) across the doorway to prevent to door from closing if someone is in the doorway.
3) A switch on the door edge will reopen the door if it hits an object while closing.
4) If there is too much load on the door motor it will reopen.
To the best of my knowledge, the first features is disabled on Shabbos elevators and the second may be partially of fully disabled. The final 2 will still work. I have not had the opportunity to test them.
My expertise with elevators does not include Shabbos elevators.
Regarding elevator door sensors, once we accept – as others have pointed out – that their purpose is to protect people, limiting their function can have serious consequences beyond the issue of melacha on Shabbos/Yom-tov.
Design engineers consider a variety of potential passengers, including the hearing impaired (audio buzzers), the elderly who may take longer to clear the doors, toddlers who escape their guardians and even the situation of someone fainting in the threshold.
The doors wouldn’t close based solely on, say, a timer even in concert with an audible and visual alert and risk injuring someone still in the threshold.
DY: I said the same thing, but he just restated his original argument as a rebuttal.
DaasYochid: I am not sure whether your comments answer any questions. I said that adding the need for more energy is done every time you open a door or open a space. In all instances, it is indirect(gromo) as stepping on an escalator does not immediately add anything and clearly nothing occurs now. As far as unintended, why would the door be different from n escalator? But anyway, as “cherrybim” mentions that Rav Neuwirth zz’k says escalators are ok.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.