Mayim Acharonim in our times

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  • #609558

    havarka
    Member

    Gemara says you have to do it, tosefos says that salt is not soo strong in his times, Aruch HaShulchan, that Tosefos used to live in mountains and salt in mountains its no soo strong but from the sea it is. So, based on this AH everybody is obligated to do Mayim Acharonim.

    thanks for all answers!

    #1035005

    Sam2
    Participant

    Tosfos’s Shittah makes the most sense. However, he brings up an issue the Gemara seemingly already addressed. The Gemara says that Melach S’domis is incredibly rare and yet we still have to do Mayim Achronim.

    #1035006

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    there are so many more important mitzvos to be worried about in our times then mayim achronim besides everyone is so makpid to just do it on shabbos and yom tov and i have no idea why? either do it always or dont do it at all!

    #1035007

    Toi
    Participant

    “there are so many more important mitzvos …”

    heretic

    #1035008

    truthsharer
    Member

    Don’t forget that women have to do mayim achronim as well.

    #1035009

    WIY
    Member

    dafyomi2711

    I always try to do it. Shulchon aruch says its a chiyyuv.

    #1035010

    Sam2
    Participant

    Also, the AH”SH is very strange soon because he presumably knew that there were Ba’alei Hatosfos all over Europe and that they didn’t only live in mountainous regions.

    #1035011

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I urge everybody to read an article published in Dinei Israel by Hakham Yosef Faur, on the Legal Methodology of Tosafot.

    The idea that changing circumstances can override Talmudic gezerot is Conservative Judaism. And yet, Tosafot engage in this on many matters, including clapping on Shabbos, mayim acharonim, cheese (Rabbeinu Tam permits the eating of cheese that is vegetarian and not made by Jews, on the grounds that the Talmudic gezera applies because of concerns over basar v’ chalav and treifot), and even wine (Haym Soloveitchik’s voluminous research on the wine trade documents this, and Rema’s teshuva giving a limud zechut to Moravian Jews to drink gentile wine) and the status of Christianity reflect an approach that is not what Hazal or the Rambam certainly stood for.

    Mayim acharonim is a definite chiyuv, as attested to by Hazal themselves in Hullin 105.

    #1035012

    Sam2
    Participant

    rd: I won’t argue with you entirely on this (because you’re not completely wrong but are very, very misguided), but I do need to point out that the Rema didn’t give a Limud Z’chus on drinking Stam Yeinam. He just gave a reason why they don’t have a Din of Hechashud Al HaDavar…

    #1035014

    rebdoniel
    Member

    You and I obviously come from 2 different hashqafot/schools of thought. I know I am not wrong. I appreciate your cordiality and mentschlikeit, Sam.

    #1035016

    E-O-M
    Participant

    Ive never suffered from saline related injury after not doing it…. Anyone here less fortunate?

    #1035017

    Sam2
    Participant

    I’m just saying, you can’t pin Conservative Judaism on Tosfos here. They knew the rules too. They’re a Rishon. So instead of just saying that they bucked the system, why not try figuring out how they actually fit into the system?

    #1035018

    Sam2
    Participant

    E-O-M: Be careful. Saying something like that (depending on the tone, which is obviously not so easy to convey via the internet) is very, very close to one of the Gemara’s definitions of Apikorsus: Saying “Mai Ahanu Lan Rabannan”.

    #1035019

    E-O-M
    Participant

    Sorry. I know it’s a deep inyan and I try to have the proper respect for it

    But to be fair the subject matter revolves around logical reasoning- hence the weak/strong salt arguments.

    Today, our salt is clearly not as strong, but we continue this al pi hasod- that’s the answer

    #1035020

    Sam2
    Participant

    E-O-M: The Gemara itself says that the Melach S’domis is exceedingly rare. The point is that it’s not worth the Sakanah for something as simple as washing your hands. You don’t necessarily need to bring Sod into it. The point is that when being safe requires so little effort why wouldn’t you?

    #1035021

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, perhaps Melach Sedomis, although rare, was found in that region. Tosafos, being in Europe, didn’t get from that salt at all.

    The Aruch Hashulchan might be implying that the particular Bal Tosfos who said that was on a mountain. It is true though that the Poskim who are Sod oriented to say to continue with this Halacha. The Maharal also says this. He says that Melach Sedomis is itself a reference to more than just the sharp salt.

    We have a rule that Ein Beis Din Yachol Levatel … Ella Im Gadol Bechachma Ubeminyan. Tosafos would not be Mevatel a Derabanan. The Gemara in Eiruvin said that Shlomo Hamelech had 1005 reasons for all Divrei sofrim. However, what we do find is that Tosafos would refer to a Derabanan that was not practiced, and say that due to the new circumstance we do not need to reinstate it. If even a small part of the original reason still existed, Tosafos insisted that it must be adhered to. This we find by the case of burial on Yom Tov.

    The Tosafos on clapping, jewelry and Mayim Acharonim, among others, are addressing the fact that it wasn’t practiced.

    The concept of Halachos of the Gemara not being followed to the T is not new. Tosafos says that we sometimes follow Sefarim Chitzonim (such as Maseches Smachos, Sofrim). There were obviously different Mesoros which might have originated from Eretz Yisroel or whatever, that we got from. There is a framework for how to deal with such things in retrospect, which we can learn from Tosafos.

    Talmidei Chachamim, who study and know Kol Hatorah, and care about it too, are the right choice for giving an insight into these matters. Outsider’s perspective might be fun to read but cannot be used seriously.

    The Chazon Ish knew all these Tosfos, and yet remained Frum!

    #1035022

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: It’s funny you say that. Rav Schachter always mentions a certain Shittah of Tosfos that the Chazon Ish just couldn’t find feasible, so he says that Tosfos never said it.

    #1035023

    E-O-M
    Participant

    Sam- just curious- do you do mayim acharonim from a keli into a keli?

    Are you makpid to have salt with all meals?

    #1035024

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Israel Ta Shma and EE Urbach have done incredible research on Tosafot and their legal influences.

    #1035025

    Sam2
    Participant

    E-O-M: The Poskim say there is no Chiyuv of a Kli (Rav Ovadiah’s son has a fairly long bit on this in the Yalkut Yosef) and it’s an incredible (possibly nonexistent) minority who says you do. Into a Kli yes just because it’s convenient to throw it out. In theory I’m Makpid to put salt on bread at all meals that I eat at home but in reality it’s not Shayach for me yet (and the Rama says that our bread has salt in it anyway). I’m not Makpid on the dipping in salt that’s brought down Al Pi Sod, if that’s what you’re asking.

    RD: I read Urbach and I greatly enjoyed his work. That in no way changes what I said there.

    #1035026

    rebdoniel
    Member

    There is great evidence that Tosafot were trying to justify local minhagim, many of which do come from the Yerushalmi, Tosefta, and masechtot ketanot, with the Bavli, whose authoritative nature did not necessarily take root in Ashkenaz in the same manner as it did in the Sephardic world. Just consider the pilpul of Tosafot versus the straight-strict constructionist approach of the Rif, let’s say.

    The mehalech laid out in Rambam’s Hakdama le Mishneh Torah informs my view of what proper halakhic methodology ought to be. Hence my not using eruvin on shabbat, and so on.

    The approach of Tosafot is very similar to how the CJLS determines its “halakha,” though. I understand the mindset which motivated Tosafist innovation. Whether it affirms the authority of the Bavli and the significance of hatimat hashas is another matter entirely. Although much poopooed by R’ Hayim Soloveitchik, Talya Fishman’s new book does address these questions of textuality and authority in Ashkenaz quite nicely.

    #1035027

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Levush writes ??? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? but just a few seifim later ha says ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???

    #1035028

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The Aruch Hashulchan might be implying that the particular Bal Tosfos who said that was on a mountain.”

    It’s not just Tosafos. The Mordechai, the Rosh, the Tur, the Hagahos Maimoni, the Shulchan Aruch, and the Levush which I quoted earlier (and perhaps others) all mention it. Granted, one could argue that they were all just following Tosafos, but you can’t just dismiss it as something a lone renegade rishon said which was uniformly rejected.

    #1035029

    The Mishna Berura says its a chiyuv. You can use any of the 7 liquids except wine. i did it once with honey, just for kicks, and then i had to do mayim acharei achronim

    #1035030

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The Mishna Berura says its a chiyuv.”

    No he doesn’t. In ‘?”? ? he writes: ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ? and in ?”? ?? he explains the reasoning behind Tosafos’s position which was quoted by the Shulchan Aruch, and he notes that several acharonim are machmir. In ‘?”? ? he says that even for those who are always careful about mayim acharonim it is ???? ???? ?? ??.

    #1035031

    sam4321
    Participant

    The Darkei Moshe( the Rama on the Tur) writes that the minhag is like Tosfos . I find it interesting that the Rama is silent on the whole siman of Mayim Achronim in the Shulchan Aruch.

    #1035032

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I think it seems pretty clear from the way the ashkenazi Rishonim talk about it, that in their times mayim acharonim just wasn’t done. They don’t really discuss it in terms of what the halacha is inasmuch as they are explaining why it wasn’t being done.

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