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April 25, 2013 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #609149rationalfrummieMember
Is it better to daven at a shul with a mechitzah that’s too short (according to rav Moshe’s psak), or to daven at home beyechidus?
April 25, 2013 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #950508☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant1) Is it officially an Orthodox shul?
2) Are women present?
April 25, 2013 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #950509popa_bar_abbaParticipantWhy can’t you simply go to the shul with the too short mechitza, and then throw garbage and dogs and cats over the mechitza (which should not be hard since it is so short) until there is nobody left on the other side?
Alternatively, you could burn the whole thing down, and then when it’s rebuilt politely ask for a higher mechitza.
Alternatively, you could bring your own mechitza with you, and stand inside it. I’d recommend using a large plastic bag (not see through).
Alternatively, you could come in the middle of the night, and bring a shovel, and dig up the floor several inches until the mechitza which is left is now tall enough.
Alternatively, you could subtly start putting seforim on top of the mechitza, and keep adding one or two siddurim every minute and maybe a gemara sota or two, until by the time you get to yishtabach it will be tall enough.
Alternatively, you could line up the bottles for the kiddush club on top, and then you won’t even need to leave shul for kiddush club and it will be high enough.
So you see, there are so many good alternatives, and I have to choose one of your ridiculous ideas?
April 25, 2013 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #950510Torah613TorahParticipantThe issur is to look. So don’t look!
April 25, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #950511charliehallParticipantThe required height for a mechitzah is a machloket poskim. Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin z’tz’l, a contemporary of similar stature to Rav Moshe z’tz’l, held that ten tefachim was l’chatchila the required height. (He also required that the mechitzah be rigid, which would pasul many much more opaque mechitzot.) This height is based on all of Chazal’s discussions in Eruvim and Sukkot so this is a very well grounded psak. The oldest Orthodox synagogue in America, Shearith Israel, has mechitzot that ten tefachim high. That congregation is notorious for refusing to countenance even slight departures from their long-established nusachim.
April 25, 2013 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #950512TheGoqParticipantTorah613Torah +1
April 25, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #950513rationalfrummieMemberDaas yochid-
1. Yes. It’s billed as modern- not “open”
2. Many women are present on Shabbos, as well as a few during the week.
PBA: I thought you take your Halacha stuff seriously. Guess not. This is a real issue- I’ve learned halachos of mechitzah in depth as well as the shitos of rav Moshe and the Satmar rov. I’m convinced it’s not high enough- and part of it is glass. I can t believe you would make leitzonus out of this- I’m all for jokes but where it’s appropriate.
Torah- this is definitely coming from a woman :). For a single male emotions can get the better of one, and its distracting. you’re right the precise issur is to look, but Halacha is Halacha regarding the height. It makes me uncomfortable to daven with a mechitzah that is pasul al pi rav Moshe. However, this is the only place I can go to daven shacharis at a time that works.
April 25, 2013 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #950514nishtdayngesheftParticipantCharlie the question was what to do if the mechitzah is too short. Your comment is not responsive.
“The issue is to look”. That’s new.
April 25, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #950515This name is already takenParticipantPopa Bar Abba-
Why can’t you simply go to the shul with the too short mechitza, and then throw garbage and dogs and cats over the mechitza (which should not be hard since it is so short) until there is nobody left on the other side? Tzar Balei Chaim
Alternatively, you could burn the whole thing down, and then when it’s rebuilt politely ask for a higher mechitza. Then where will he daven till then
Alternatively, you could bring your own mechitza with you, and stand inside it. I’d recommend using a large plastic bag (not see through. What about on Shabbos
Alternatively, you could come in the middle of the night, and bring a shovel, and dig up the floor several inches until the mechitza which is left is now tall enough. Its a concrete floor
Alternatively, you could subtly start putting seforim on top of the mechitza, and keep adding one or two siddurim every minute and maybe a gemara sota or two, until by the time you get to yishtabach it will be tall enough. And till yishtabach?
Alternatively, you could line up the bottles for the kiddush club on top, and then you won’t even need to leave shul for kiddush club and it will be high enough. That shul doesnt allow kiddush clubs
So you see, there are no good alternatives
April 25, 2013 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #950516rationalfrummieMemberNisht,
Charlie was saying that many more mechitzahs are kosher than just those according to rav Moshe’s standards. Personally I’d rather be more machmir here simply because of kavanah issues. It’s not about sexism- I’d love to see women learning more Torah and teaching more Torah. Mechitzas are there because of kavanah and to avoid the conversations, lashon harah, and kalus rosh that would happen if genders are mixed during tefillah.
April 25, 2013 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #950517sonMemberRav Moshe also has a teshuva regarding davening b’yichidus (it’s not so poshut to do). If it’s ok according to some standards and you see yourself capable of not being distracted, i.e. by davening by the wall or something of the sort, I would think you should still daven in the shul. That said, I haven’t a clue how the shul looks, nor have I really learned much about mechitzas, so this is more or less coming from my stomach 🙂
April 25, 2013 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #950518☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant1) I don’t know what R’ Henkin ZT”L held, but the halachic norm is only to allow 18 tefachim, as per R’ Moshe ZT”L, and only b’dieved.
2) The issur is not only to look. The reason is also to avoid “kalus rosh”, hence, R’ Moshe holds that the ordinary 10 tefach shiur is not applicable here, and in fact, is meikil (b’dieved) even if the mechitza is transparent.
3) R’ Moshe writes (and proves) the obligation to have a mechitza is d’Oraisa. (O.C. 1, 39)
4) R’ Moshe is referring to the issur of having an improper mechitza. I didn’t see him address the specific issue of someone davening there if its already that way. However, he writes that one is obligated to protest with all his might against a mechitzah which is below 18 tefachim, so it’s mistaver that it’s assur to daven there (even at the expense of t’filah b’tzibur), and, in fact, you’re probably obligated to register your protest at the disregard for halachah (although I don’t know if it’s a situation in which it will definitely fall on deaf ears).
April 25, 2013 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #950519Ðash®ParticipantThe oldest Orthodox synagogue in America, Shearith Israel, has mechitzot that ten tefachim high. That congregation is notorious for refusing to countenance even slight departures from their long-established nusachim.
The balcony itself is the Mechitza, the railing is just for safety.
April 25, 2013 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #950520☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIf there a balcony in Shearith Israel, R’ Moshe would be mattir.
April 25, 2013 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #950522rationalfrummieMemberBut what should I do? Any more practical advice? I know of a sort of similar case where rav Moshe assured going to a conservative shul even if it was the only minyan in town. Here the case is different cause its frum, but could it be comparable?
April 25, 2013 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #950523WIYMember1) It is prohibited to daven in a Shul that does not have a [Kosher] Mechitza (separation) between the men and the women.
Even if the women are dressed modestly, it is still prohibited to daven without a Mechitza. The Poskim say that it is better to daven without a Minyan than to daven in a Shul that lacks a Mechitza. (Many even prohibit davening in a side room of such a shul)
Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe Orach Chaim Vol. 1 Siman 39) and others maintain that a Mechitza in a Shul is a biblical obligation, regardless of how modest (or G-d forbid immodest) the women are dressed, as not having the separation may lead to a lightheadedness between the sexes, and may lead to touching and/or excessive talking.
Rav Moshe adds that these Halachos are not only pertinent during davening, but also at any gathering in the Shul (funeral, Simchas Torah, Simchas Bais HaShoeva, Sheva Brachos etc.)where men and women are present, a Mechitza must separate them.
from halachafortoday
April 25, 2013 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #950524rationalfrummieMemberThank you WIY, that was very helpful. All of those are very important halachic considerations.
However, what about al tifrosh min hatzibbur? And other than the mechitzah, most of these Jews are upstanding and halachicallly committed.
April 25, 2013 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #950525rabbiofberlinParticipantWIY: I don’t know what “halachafortoday’ is but there are signifciant mistakes. R”Moshe zz’l (nor anyone else) “paskens” that the mechitza has to be three amos high. That is absurd. Additionally, you better show me the pask and the sources that say that a mechitza is a must for anything else besides “tefilah”.
I don’t have R’Moshe’s teshuvos handy but there is no source that a mechitza is “mideoirasi”. The whole sugyah is discussed in gemoro sukkot and the source is “novih” not de’oraisa. So, your sources are very suspect and so is “hanachafortoday”.
April 25, 2013 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #950526rationalfrummieMemberHmm. It’s definitely not a dioraisa, since our practice is based on the practice in the bais hamikdash, after there was too much kalus rosh. It was a new innovation to add a balcony, definitely not dioraisa.
April 25, 2013 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #950527charliehallParticipant“R’ Moshe writes (and proves) the obligation to have a mechitza is d’Oraisa. (O.C. 1, 39)”
That is really difficult, since (1) the obligation for tefillah b’tzibur is a d’rabbanan, and (2) for most of the history of the beit hamikdash there was no mechitzah. Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l wrote that the mechitzah requirement is d’rabbanan.
“If there a balcony in Shearith Israel, R’ Moshe would be mattir.”
In the main upstairs beit knesset, the ezrat nashim is a balcony. In the small beit knesset on the main level, and in the lower level beit knesset used for Shabat services in the summer, there is no balcony but a ten tefachim mechitzah. The architecture is modeled on the famous Esnoga in Amsterdam.
“other than the mechitzah, most of these Jews are upstanding and halachicallly committed.”
Halachically committed Jews can follow halachic opinions that differ from Rav Moshe z’tz’l especially when it has backing from the gemara and from a long tradition and was supported by a contemporary posek of similar stature.
April 25, 2013 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #950528rabbiofberlinParticipantcharliehall and rationalfrummie- EXACTLY. If you look at the gemoro in sukkos ,you clearly see that it was a (late?) introduction of “separation” in the SECOND bais hamikdosh. The only real aource for any separationof the sexes (note- separation, NOT mechitza) is from Novih (Zecharay 12).Look at gemoro sukkot 51B and 52A. This is why a balcony is enough- WITHOUT even having any railing(mechtiza0 at all. the separation aspect is the key. R”Moshe zz’l (if my memory is correct) paskens that a mechitza of ten tefochim (appx three feet0 s enough to mark that separation ,as we see in hilchos shabbos. The introduction of a mechitza is only for tefilah “me’ikar hadin”.Tthere are many mentions for the separation of the sexes in other settings but it is only for separation-not a mechitza- and it is -at best- a minhag.
April 25, 2013 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #950529shmoolik 1Participantcan somebody give the height minimum / maximum in inches or centimeters
April 25, 2013 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #950530rationalfrummieMemberOf course they can, but at the end of the day, Rav Moshe was the posek hador of that era. Following shitos of yechidim, no matter how great they are creates division Halacha (no pun intended :).
Also im not so sure about this shitah you quote, Charliehall. If this is true, According to rav henkin, a mechitzah only needs to be about 3 feet!! That seems way too short, since its much shorter than the height of nearly everyone that goes to shul. 18 tefachim seems more reasonable since its at least more in line with normal heights today.
Son: thanks for the advice, I think this iswhat I’ll do from now on.
April 25, 2013 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #950531☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantthere is no source that a mechitza is “mideoirasi”.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=916&st=&pgnum=95&hilite=
April 25, 2013 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #950532benignumanParticipantTorah613,
As Daas Yochid said, the requirement of a mechitza is not because of “looking” it is because of kalos rosh (i.e. improper conversation). An all glass mechitza is sufficient according to R’Moshe (for the din of mechitza). On the other hand the mechitza has to be high enough to prevent easy conversation.
April 25, 2013 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #950533☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThat must be a typo, since R’ Moshe held 18 tefachim b’dieved, and the six feet quoted as b’dieved would be higher than the heads of the vast majority of women.
April 25, 2013 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #950534WIYMemberRabbiofberlin
Your tone doesn’t deserve a reply to be honest. You can see that it is all in the Teshuva he says 18 tefachim which are 3 amos. The Tzitz eliezer holds 3 and a half amos are required. And halachafortoday is a massive talmud chacham and you should have respect for him as well as of course your bar plugta Rav Moshe ztzal who you so vehemently argue with.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/weekly_torah.php?id=449
The Height of a Mechitza
Horav Moshe Feinstein zt”l writes that a mechitza should go up to shoulder height, in accordance with his opinion that the mechitza is to prevent men and women from mingling.(14) Ideally, Horav Moshe says the mechitza should be at least 66 inches high (17-18 tefachim).(15) However, if the mechitza is only 60 inches high, one should not rebuke those relying on it.(16) A yira shomayim should try to make a mechitza high enough that it goes over the heads of the women.(17) If one raises the level of the women’s section making the height of the mechitza less than 60 inches, it is unacceptable.(18) A shul that does not want to make a mechitza should have the women and men sit on separate sides of the shul. (19)
Mechitza Made Of Glass etc.
One should not use glass as part of a mechitza if by doing so one would be able to see the women during davening. Such a mechitza does not adhere to what a mechitza is meant to be.(20) According to Horav Moshe Feinstein zt”l using glass would be permitted.(21) A mechitza that has a sizable gap towards the top is not valid. If a mechitza has tiny holes in it the mechitza is still valid.(22)
Footnotes
(14)Igros Moshe ibid. (15) Igros Moshe ibid, 1:40, 1:42, O.C. 4:31, Srdei Eish 1:8:page 19-20. The Tzitz Eliezer 20:7 says the height should be around 3 and 1/2 amos. (16) Igros Moshe ibid, O.C. 3:23, O.C. 4:30, 4:31, 32 (17) Igros Moshe ibid. 1:40, O.C. 3:23, Yisroel Kedoshim page 72. (18) Igros Moshe O.C. 3:23, 3:24, O.C. 4:29. (19) Igros Moshe O.C. 1:44. If one finds himself in an Orthodox Shul without a proper mechitza he may daven there if there are no women present at the time of davening (Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita). (20) Shevet Ha’Levi 1:29. (21) Refer to Igros Moshe O.C. 1:43, 3:23. Only if the women are dressed properly. (22) Igros Moshe O.C. 4:32, Teshuvos V’hanhugos 1:162, Piskei Teshuvos 151:4, see Oz Nedberu 13:67.
Copyright 2013 Halachically Speaking
April 25, 2013 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #950535rabbiofberlinParticipantrationalfrummie- I don’t know where all he talk about ‘talking,looking’ etc comes.All of this is correct and,obviously, there are problems in davening while seeing women but this is not the crux of the mechitza. It is simple. The mechitza is to separate the sexes. If they are naturally separated-as with a balcony- you don’t even need a mechitza. Otherwise, you need something to separate them and, learning from hilchos shabbos, anything that is the height of ten tefochim (appx three feet)makes it a different “reshus’ and qualifies as a mechitza.That is why a mechitza of glass is fully kosher (without going into the question of tefiloh and hair,etc)
daasyochid: I thank you for pointing us towards R’Moshe’s teshuvo. However, I read the whole paragraph and re-read and I still don’t understand what R’Moshe zz’l means. The “pashtus’of the gemoro in sukkos is that we are ALLOWED to make an addition to the bais hamikdosh (balcony)to separate the sexes is from novih. There is no indication from the gemoro that there was a need for separation “midoraisa’. And, in truth, there is very little in halocho that tells us to have a mechitza. No mention in shulchan aruch and, by the way, the Rambam clearly indicates that the addition to the bais hamikdosh was TAKEN DOWN after yomtov. So, you can, of course, accept R’Moshe’s reasoning but it is not fully clear.
April 25, 2013 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #950536benignumanParticipantA lot of the argument here is misunderstanding.
According to R’Moshe the purpose of the mechitza is to avoid kalas rosh (mingling, improper conversation, etc.). A balcony obviously avoids the problem because there can be no interactions between the genders.
Kalas rosh (certainly during prayer) is an issur d’oraisa. If the people could be trusted to not engage in kalas rosh, then no mechitza would be necessary. During the second Bais Hamikdosh it was noted that there were incidences of kalas rosh during Yom Tov in the Bais Hamikdosh. They therefore instituted a balcony during those times.
In other words the institution of a mechitza is d’rabbanan but the problem it is meant to prevent is d’oraisa (a fairly common occurrence). If one is confident that there will be no kalas rosh then the only problem davening in a shul without a mechitza is d’rabbanan.
April 25, 2013 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #950537rabbiofberlinParticipantWIY- First of all, this is a forum for discussion, not piskei halochoh, and questions snd opinions on anything are allowed. You may not agree with my questions or opinions,but you should not dismiss them so insultingly.
Second, whether the “halachatoday’ is a great talmid chochom is irrelevant if the questions are valid. And- even according to him-if you check the sources,you will note that he quotes “lekatchilas” and “bedieveds”. I do remember clearly the fact of a mechitza till the shoulder as being sufficient and I also remember a kuloh of ten tefochim. Maybe it was relying on Rav henkin zz’l who, by the way, was the possek of america before R”moshe.
If you check the source you mention, you will even see that he brings a psak from R’Moshe that allows to daven just by separation of the sexes, with mo mechitza. All this ‘bedieved’ of course, but you cannot dismiss these matters so cavalierly.
April 25, 2013 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #950538popa_bar_abbaParticipantRationalist:
So are you asking
a) whether we follow Rav Moshe’s psak b’dieved, or
b) whether it is better to daven in a shul without a mechitza or at home?
In either event, I still recommend my alternatives above.
April 25, 2013 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #950539rationalfrummieMemberPopa- I’m asking b. I can’t imagine following a psak by rav Moshe, the leading posek of the last dor, only bedieved be’alma.
April 25, 2013 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #950540popa_bar_abbaParticipantOk. You might have just asked then about a shul that has no mechitza but they sit separately (see Igros Moshe OC1:44).
April 25, 2013 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #950541Torah613TorahParticipantThanks, The Goq.
Rationalfrummie: you’re right. I don’t know anything about this topic. (to be honest, until this thread, I had no idea that there was a required height for mechitzas. I just figured it was there to help the men not look.)
April 25, 2013 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #950542Sam2ParticipantR’ Moshe’s proof that it’s D’Oraisa is quite interesting. Take a look at OC 1:26, I believe. That being said, there are major Poskim that held 10 Tefachim. It’s difficult to tell a Shul they are doing something wrong by relying on those Poskim. Whether or not you should personally Daven there is another matter entirely.
April 26, 2013 1:08 am at 1:08 am #950543WIYMemberTorah613Torah
“I just figured it was there to help the men not look.)” It depends, the short ones are there to help the men look.
April 26, 2013 1:31 am at 1:31 am #950544Sam2ParticipantIt was 1:39, my bad. And ROB, while R’ Moshe’s fact that it is a Din D’Oraisa is a big Chiddush, it makes a lot of sense and R’ Moshe is certainly capable of having Chiddushim. You can ask questions on it, but you cannot dismiss it out of hand. Also, if you want to hold that you need 10 Tefachim and a real Havdalas Reshus for Mechitzah, then you are Chayav Misah for making a Mechitzah of any type on Shabbos. If you want to hold that way, Takanascha Zo Hi Kalkalascha.
April 26, 2013 1:37 am at 1:37 am #950545rationalfrummieMemberWIY: and there we go again, demeaning other shitos held by respectable poskim just because we disagree.
Sam: wow. You either have a bar ilsn cd or mamesh encyclopedic knowledge of sifrei Halacha, shas, and mekorot. Every time there is a shaila you know whee to point people. May you continue being marbitz Torah here, with on,y hatzlachah in your own learning. Also, if there are major poskim that hold 10 tefachim, can I hold by them, at least b’dieved?
Torah: you had the more rational explanation to begin with, so kudos on thinking creatively off the top of your head!
ill just add that eal kavanah doesn’t come from an external divider, it comes from within one’s heart. In order to let that experience happen for both men AND women, we have mechitzahs. It’s a means to an end- not an end in of itself. The goal is kavanah and not pure separation.
April 26, 2013 1:43 am at 1:43 am #950546rabbiofberlinParticipantWIY- I had ther opportunity to quickly review all of R’Moshe’s teshuvos on mechitza (in chelek 1, OH”CH,chelek 3 OH”CH and chelek 4 OH”CH”) and ,indeed you were right in insisting that R”Mmoshe zz’l requires sixty inches and, preferably,even higher so as not to see the women. So, you are right as far as R’Moshe zz’l. Although, clearly, there are and were Poskim who allowed ten “tefochim”. There are a number of questions that R’Moshe himself tries to answer in his latter teshuvos. The primary question I would have is the fact ,that if you say that a mechitzah is up to the shoulders, how can it be 18 tefochim? A man’s height-as per mishneh and gemoro- is three amos (see mikveh)which is 18 tefochim so, ‘baal korcho’, up to the shoulders is significantly less? R’Moshe (in chelek 3) tries to answer but I did not fully understand his answer.
R”Moshe insists that it is ‘mideoraisa” and he has a fairly complicated way of deducing this from gemoro sukkos. There are many problems with this approach but this forum is too restricted to go into detail.
April 26, 2013 1:55 am at 1:55 am #950547flyerParticipantrationalfrummie – you said you daven in LMS. There are at least 4 other minyanim daily that you can daven in that have perfect mechitzos. If you have a problem – go to a different minyan.
April 26, 2013 2:13 am at 2:13 am #950548rabbiofberlinParticipantSam2-Thanks for your stimulating questions. I’ll answer the second one first. In shulchan aruch,hilchos shabbos,315,se’if 1, you will see that the Remo deals with a “mechitza’ (curtain) that is put up on shabbos for “tznius” (BTW- this actually supports some of those who said that a mechitza is needed on any occasion) and the Remo is “mattir’ because it is only a “ohel ara’i” So, your supposition that thsi ould be a “hiyun Missah’ is not supported by the Remo and halacha.
As far as your point about mechitza being d’oraisa. Certainly, R” Moshe zz’l can be “mechadesh” (bring anew) any “sevoro” (logic) he wants. The questions on his approach are numerous,starting with the fact that-until the end of Bays sheni- there was no separation in the bais hamikdosh. How would that be possible if it is ‘mideoraisa”? Secondly ,we find that there were women within the enclosure of the bais hamikdosh- see Chana- and how did they get there? R’Moshe deals with some of these questions but, in truth, there is no need to base it on d’oraisa- a “dina degemoro” is pretty strong to.
April 26, 2013 3:04 am at 3:04 am #950549charliehallParticipant“can somebody give the height minimum / maximum in inches or centimeters”
I found three opinions regarding the size of a tefach:
Rabbi Chaim Neah 7.62 cm
Chazon Ish 9.62 cm
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein 9.00 cm
2.54 cm is exactly one inch. Ten tefachim according to Rabbi Neah would be exactly 30 inches.
“Rav Moshe was the posek hador of that era. “
Many disagreed with him during his lifetime on numerous issues, including Rav Henkin z’tz’l and Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l.
“until the end of Bays sheni- there was no separation in the bais hamikdosh”
Actually, even at the very end of Bayit Sheni women even entered the azarah itself on occasion — there was actually a women’s entrance on the north side. Women could and did shecht their own korbanot. Chazal didn’t have a problem with any of this.
April 26, 2013 3:16 am at 3:16 am #950550Sam2ParticipantRational: It is incredibly, incredibly difficult to ever even advise anyone to Pasken against Rav Moshe in America. I once mentioned to my Rabbi (and he said that what I said makes a lot of sense) that the only time where it would be okay to use a 10 Tefach Mechitzah would be if the Shul had had a MInhag to use such a Mechitzah from before the time when Rav Moshe was the Posek HaDor. But I can’t see a reason that a new Shul nowadays would be allowed to go against Rav Moshe unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. (e.g. I know of an old age home that relies on a 10 Tefach Mechitzah because the vast majority of women there are in wheelchairs and they want the Mechitzah low enough that the women don’t feel completely boxed in.)
April 26, 2013 3:35 am at 3:35 am #950551rabbiofberlinParticipantsam2- Your view is obviously becoming the minority. Did you last check the eiruv on the West Side? or in Boro park? R’Moshe zz’l was against them both. The “inyan” of cholov yisroel has been debated endlessly here and everywhere. Whiel R” Moshe was alive, he was indeed the possek for most of yeshivish American jewry but since he passed away so many years ago, things have changed.
April 26, 2013 4:37 am at 4:37 am #950552Sam2Participantrob: Chas V’shalom. R’ Moshe is still the Mara D’asra of America and will probably remain that way until someone like him arises or there are major sociological shifts that require someone new to address them. I guarantee you that you don’t dismiss his Kulos out of hand. And most of his Chumros that are currently ignored weren’t held like him in his lifetime either (ask R’ Schachter some time why we’re allowed to go against him in Eruvin). It takes incredibly broad shoulders to go against him on anything, and it is nearly impossible to argue on him on something that the Tzibbor was Noheg like him. Everyone, with a tiny number of exceptions, accepted his 18 Tefach minimum Mechitzah.
April 26, 2013 4:43 am at 4:43 am #950553☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantDid you last check the eiruv on the West Side? or in Boro park? R’Moshe zz’l was against them both.
Ask Rav Belsky what he thinks about that.
The “inyan” of cholov yisroel has been debated endlessly here and everywhere.
Rav Moshe’s opinion has not been disregarded at all.
April 26, 2013 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #950554rabbiofberlinParticipantSam2- and DaasYochid: Hopefully, you don’t misunderstand me. I was around when R’Moshe zz’l indeed was the Possek of klal ysroel in America, witnessing his piskei din and the fierce opposition he created at times (just research the matter of artifical insemination) and you are right that the general population accepted his piskei halocho. Yet, there were other Poskim who had their own views, “bein lekuloh” bein lechumroh”. In the same way one cannot ignore-CH”V- R’Moshe’s influence on psak this past half century, in the same way, one should not dismiss the other Poskim, if need be. Do remember that this forum is for discussion only, not for psak. When one comes to psak, I would always consult R”moshe zz’l .
BTW_ I do not know what Rav Belsky shelita thinks about the eiruv. Enlighten me.
April 26, 2013 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #950555☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantHe is staunchly against it and holds that nobody has a right (at least in NY) to go against R’ Moshe’s psak. I’ve heard this indirectly, but I’m told that he speaks very forcefully and passionately about the inyan.
April 26, 2013 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #950556squeakParticipantSo two Boro Park guys have been learning bechavrusa for over a decade, when one of them finally makes a confession.
“I’m a goy,” he says, “I got interested in your religion about ten years back and I figured the only way to really find out about Judaism is to live in your midst. So I’ve been passing myself off as one of you, and now I want to be magayer.”
His chavrusa is shocked. “My friend, we’ve been learning together all this time,” he says. “You know as much Torah by now as I do. Surely you remember learning Goy SheShovas Chayav Misah? A goy who keeps Shabbos earns the death penalty.”
“Of course I know that,” the goy responds. “So every Shabbos afternoon when I came here to learn with you I would bring my house keys with me as I walked through the streets.”
“But… but… that doesn’t help! There is an eruv here in Boro Park! So you are still Chayav Misah!”
“Not to worry, friend. I hold like Rav Belsky.”
April 26, 2013 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #950557benignumanParticipantrabbiofberlin,
You asked “A man’s height-as per mishneh and gemoro- is three amos (see mikveh)which is 18 tefochim so, ‘baal korcho’, up to the shoulders is significantly less? R’Moshe (in chelek 3) tries to answer but I did not fully understand his answer.”
I don’t know what R’Moshe wrote. But Tosafos answers this question. The shiur of 3 amos is without a person’s head. It is still sufficient for a mikva to be 1X3 because water displacement will allow it to cover his head.
The following is from memory, but if needed I can probably find the sources: I believe R’Moshe holds that the shiurim of etzbah, tefach and ama will change based on the physiology of the current generation. In other words “etzba” is the width of the average finger, a tefach is four etzbaos and an Ama is is 6 tefachim. I recall that R’Moshe took a survey and determined that an “etzba” was 3/4 of an inch. Which would make a tefach 3 inches and an Ama 18 inches. This means that 3 amos is 4 and half feet or to the shoulders of the average person on the Lower East Side in the 50s.
I would submit that today, people are larger and the etzba is closer to an 9/10s of an inch. Therefore, modern mechitzos, while still being 18 amos tall, should have to be higher.
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