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    If the medina is so bad for Jews, what is supposed to be done? Hand over the entire land to Arabs? Also if Hashem didn’t want the Jews to create/return to Israel under Jewish control, wouldn’t you think they could have easily lost during the wars? I mean the victories were obviously miraculous and not just once, 3 times! That’s more than enough opportunity to lose if it wasn’t meant to be. Many criticize the Jewish control of the land and many Rabbis e were against the creation of it, but now that it’s been around for 70 years, what are the solutions. Going backwards is not really an option and if anyone thinks there is bloodshed now, imagine having the land over to anyone else especially the Arabs. There wouldn’t be anyone left cv”s. What would you suggest be done to stop these enemies.


    Start another thread.


    right writer: mamzeirim are a bad thing; I’m sure you agree with that. So what should we do with a mamzer? We do not kill a mamzer. (Though, we may have to him his parent(s), depending on the circumstances.)

    The State is a mamzer.

    Do you say that the Holocaust was a good thing since Hashem let it happen?

    Rome, which destroyed Yerushalayim and slaughtered the Yidden, was around for a lot longer than the State of Israel.

    Yossel Pupik

    1. No, we should not hand over the country to the Arabs. That doesn’t justify the creation of the State nor does it mean that we should condone anti religious actions and Chilulei Hashem
    2. The way Hashem runs the world is very mysterious and can’t be understood fully. There are times that רשעים are successful, Dovid Hemelech already had this question. Why were the Germans successful in the beginning of WW2? Why did the Romans win wars? We don’t know the answer.
    3. The solution is to try to get as many secular to become closer to religion and to get more halacha into the State policy


    “We know that, if need be, we could pick up and move tomorrow to a state with an army and nuclear weapons.

    This sense of security that the existence of Israel provides cannot be overstated.
    It makes life in an uncertain Brooklyn or Toulouse possible.

    Anyone who denies this, I believe, is lying to you or to themselves.”

    FROM: How to fight anti-Semitism (chapter 6, page 193)
    by Bari Weiss, published by Crown in year 2019
    in New York, ISBN 9780593136058 & ISBN 0593136055


    My parenthetical sentence had a typo. It should have read:

    Though, we may have to execute his parent(s), depending on the circumstances.


    SR:1) A State with nuclear arms can get nuked just as much as a state without nuclear arms. 2) Brooklyn is part of a State with more nuclear arms than the State that includes Eilat (which is also part of Chutz L’aretz, unlike southern Lebanon which is part of Eretz Yisroel.)


    I think all this terrible confusion can be solved with a little brisker lomdus
    There are tzvei dinim; There is the cheftza of a sovereign Jewish nation state in its ancestral homeland Eretz Yisroel. Then there is the Gavra i.e. they are the people that live in Israel and the people who govern it. The fact that this cheftza exists is the greatest miracle of all time and everyone everywhere knows that and either like the Muslims, hates it or like the Christians, loves it. Period. As for the people who live there and govern it I will say let Hashem be the judge but I would think twice before bashing the chosen people. At any rate if you really care about the cheftza having better gavras, just stop the banter and get your “better” gavra self over here.


    I think all this terrible confusion can be solved with a little brisker lomdus
    There are tzvei dinim; There is the cheftza of a sovereign Jewish nation state in its ancestral homeland Eretz Yisroel. Then there is the Gavra i.e. they are the people that live there and the people who govern it. The fact that this cheftza exists is the greatest miracle of all time and everyone everywhere knows that and either like the Muslims, hates it or like the Christians, loves it. Period. As for the people who live there and govern it I will say let Hashem be the judge but I would think twice before bashing the chosen people. At any rate if you really care about the cheftza having better gavras, just stop the banter and get your “better” gavra self over here.


    Moshiach, where does the torah say to have a jewish state in our homeland?

    The term homeland is also wrong. It implies we became a nation there; we didn’t, we became a nation when Hashem said we were His people – which was when we received the Torah. We became a nation in the midbar.

    Making a state violates the Torah, so do you think Hashem would nake a miracle for it to be created?

    There were different schools of thought regarding how to view the state. The satmar rov said that if there were miracles – which he said there weren’t – it wouldn’t prove anything, just as they don’t prove that a navi sheker is true. It would be a maysoh soton.

    The brisker rov said that the zionists were successful because after the Holocaust, there was a tremendous ais ratzon. If klal yisroel wanted moshiach, he would have come – instead they wanted a state, so that’s what they got.

    And now we’re stuck with it, with no clear way out of the grasp of zionists poisoning the holy land with their chilul Hashem.

    Can you think of a bigger chilul Hashem than a state which calls itself jewish not following the Torah? It’s literally the biggest chilul Hashem since maysoh bereshis… something which says it’s jewish while being totally frei.


    Avira- i don’t have time for a long response, but i do find it interesting that you write there were different schools of thought, and then limit yourself to the approaches of the Satmar Rav and the Brisker Rav, both of whom viewed it negatively.
    How about the school of thought of the Ponivitzer Rav who strongly felt that the state is is a Yeshuah for Klal Yisroel?
    Or of Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky who held that the state was meant as a Chizuk to Bnei Yisroel after the despair of the Holacaust?
    Or of Rav Yechiel Michel Tichitzinky who saw in the state, a Kiyum of the Pessukim which discuss the Geulah?
    Or of Rav Dessler who writes that one has to be blind not to see the Chesed of having a state?
    Or of the Tzitz Eliezer who considerd the state to be “Aschalta Digeulah”?
    Or of Rav Ovadya, who in fact, uses the miracles of winning the wars, as support that the state of Israel is positive (see his article about “land for peace” in Torah Shebal Peh journal )?
    This is just on the top of my head.
    And this is all besides for the views of the numerous Gedolim in the Mizrachi world (Rav Herzog, Rav Zevin, Rav Yoshe Ber, etc.)
    Doesn’t seem so intellectually honest to write about all these schools of thought, and then limit yourself to the ones you personally ascribe to.


    I think it’s safe to say that since the vast majority of Gedolim in EY have decided to deal pragmatically with the state, that they essentially agree with your opinion.
    No one argues that the Zionists in control of the country is less than ideal. And no one argues that it’s not a chillul Hashem.
    Yet all those Gedolim minus a few, have created political parties, and attempted to work within the system, because they’ve essentially taken your approach.

    Sam Klein

    Every tragedy and Shocking message has a wake up call message directly from Hashem that your not going to find in any sefer in the world or read in any newspaper from a Gadol Hador or speaker saying about the tragedy. Neither is it from me w coffee room writer on the tumas internet but actually straight from the kisei hakavod above us.


    אברהם אבינו-our forefather-was born in the jewish calender year of 1948. The state of Israel became a state of independence in the year 1948 in the secular calender. what can we learn from this? אברהם אבינו is our forefather, he started judaism… he was the first one to believe in Hashem & teach people all about Hashem. With the state of Israel starting in 1948 this is a sign from Hashem that Eretz Yisroel is on the route to גאולה (Redemption). There are just a lot of steps to take before משיח comes. (as can be found in the book of זכריה the Prophet) & this was the first step.

    May we all wake up and accept Hashems wake up call for serious Teshuva and Achdus together ASAP so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.


    mentsch1: The frum Jews were elected to the Polish Sejm and dealt pragmatically with its government. Does that demonstrate to you that they essentially agreed that Poland was good for the Jews?


    Y – i didn’t mean to be exhaustive; i quoted the opinions that most gedolim held, in one form or another. Some of the names you quoted are not accurate, including rav yaakov, but others don’t hold a candle to the chazon ish, brisker rov, etc…

    As for rav ovadia not only believing that there were miracles but that that somehow shows Hashem’s approval of the state…i don’t recall him saying that, but it’s a mistake either way, because the Torah says clearly in open pesukim that we’re not supposed to listen to miracles if they are done by false neviim. Even the chashmonaim weren’t certain of the miracles they experienced until the neis of the pach shemen.

    It remains to be explained how it’s a tenable position that something which by its very existence is the biggest global chilul Hashem – akin to putting up billboards all over the world that Jewish people are tel aviv culture and nationalists – can be a good thing. Was there peripheral benefit? Yes. Is there an idea that we need to be grateful to Hashem for that benefit despite whatever else is going on? Some looked at it that way. But to look at it positively overall or as some messianic thing… It’s just a dimyon which has proven to be false, because it’s been 73 years and moshiach has not come yet.


    Avira you are mistaken, there was no Navi performing miracles during these wars, it was Hashem Himself. There are many stories by Israeli soldiers that were in impossible situations such as being a lone tank against a line of Arab tanks when those Arabs suddenly retreated and Israelis didn’t understand why. So the miracles were open miracles from Shamayim.

    And you state Moshiach hasn’t arrived for 73 years. But also hadn’t arrived in 2000 years. So what’s the difference.


    rightwriter: You could also say it was a miracle that Hitler survived the assassination attempt against him. Does that make the Holocaust a good thing?


    Right, fair point that it’s not a navi, but we also find that the soton does things like this as a test, like when he made an image of Moshe dying on har Sinai to test klal yisroel and see if they would sin, and they did, with the egel.

    As for individual stories – every war in history has hashgocha protis stories, in every country. War is a time when people see the yad Hashem more than usual…as the saying goes, there aren’t any atheists in a foxhole.

    And if Hashem did a miracle for an atheist who went around parading his sins after the state was made, does that mean Hashem did a miracle for a person like that and that he deserved it? Or was it, as the brisker rov said, in order to safeguard the frummer yidden who lived in eretz yisroel – in spite of, not because of the zionists? The latter is a lot clearer.

    Regarding the year count – yes, we’ve been in galus for 2,000 years, and yes gedolim have said and continue to say that Moshiach is ready to come soon…but he hasn’t, and if you think that the state is the ashchalta…. nothing redemptive has happened since then. Only more sin and more terrorism. 70 years is a galus in itself, as it was after bayis rishon, so how can over 70 years be an aschalta?

    If anything, chazal say that it holds back moshiach, as the gemara says that ben dovid will not come until the lowest jewish rulership is gone.

    ☕️coffee addict

    The question ultimately is was this part of Hashem’s plan? Can something happen that isn’t part of Hashem’s plan?

    I saw a vort recently (can’t remember where) that גם זו לטובה means that the only reason you’re viewing it as bad is because you don’t see the full picture, if you did you would see a masterpiece and ultimately this “bad thing” was really good

    To joe’s question of “ Does that make the Holocaust a good thing?” I have heard that if the holocaust didn’t happen there would have been so much intermarriage that we wouldn’t be able to recover as a nation, so in some aspects it was “good” (I apologize to the posters that had ancestors that perished in the holocaust I’m not trying to make hitler yms a good person, nor what he did was a good action, but it is all in Hashem’s plan)


    Yaakov Avinu “stole” the berachot from esav which was not ideal, but that’s what happened. Sometimes decisions of individuals are not ideal but they happen and Hashems plan will always work out in the end. The benefits of having the State of Israel are undeniable. There is no question that the last 70 years are a huge turning point in Mashiahs arrival. Did it have to happen this way? Is it the ideal path towards Mashiah? Those questions I can’t answer, but Atzat Hashem Hi Takum. Vile speech against Zionists can easily instead be Hakarat Hatov for the good that has come about, and continues to be possible, through their actions while recognizing that it isn’t or wasn’t ideal. The two perspectives are identical – recognizing the bad and appreciating the good – just one is expressed in the way of the Torah and one is expressed with hatred. For all we know Hashem is testing all of us to see if we can get along when He gives us such a huge reason to disagree. This very idea could be the Yest of Achdut that is needed to be metaken the sinat hinam that sent us to galut. I guarantee you that words of negativity and hatred towards fellow Jews – regardless of whose shoulders you’re standing on and how sincere you are – will not contribute to bring mashiach any sooner.


    Coffee, I agree that every tragedy is ultimately good, but when it comes to spiritual calamities, we respond differently ythan physical ones. When the Jews were threatened during Purim, they accepted it as a gezerah from shomayim; they knew they were deserving of the punishment, and davened, fasted, did teshuvah, and were saved in the end. They didn’t make plans for war.

    When the goyim attacked the torah during chanukah, we didn’t keep quiet. We went to war for Hashem, but that’s the only time we respond that way.

    The Holocaust was like a Purim story, except we did not escape the gezerah…the chazon ish said we would have if we had responded to it the way the yidden did in eretz yisroel; i.e., fasting, teshuvah, davening, etc…which is when Rommel was confounded miraculously, like Sancheriv in Yerushalayim.

    What the state represents is an attack from Yavanim. They are continuously trying to undermine Hashem and His Torah at every turn, and they’ve been successful. Our response to spiritual threat isn’t to sit and say gam zu letovah; it’s a spur from shomayim to improve ourselves, separate ourselves from the assimilationists and fight any and all attempts at increasing the already collosal, heretofore nonexistent level of chilul Hashem that the state makes every second of every day. We need to tell the world that the state does not represent the Jewish people, to minimize that chilul Hashem as much as we can. How can we sit idly by while the name of Hashem is dragged through the mud so very much?

    ☕️coffee addict


    Nothing can happen outside of what Hashem wants, even the “מעשה שטן” by the עגל was orchestrated by Hashem (if you believe the שטן has power outside of Hashem I think you have the wrong religion)

    Now that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a test (like the עגל) but it’s exactly what Hashem wants and it might be that the state is “evil” and the test is to fight the state at every turn, but it knight also mean that the state should be used as way to be מקרב people that would be lost to assimilation if not for the state


    Avira Calf and winning not one but 3 large scale wars is very different. The Golden Calf due to thinking Moshe Rabbeinu was gone was a test. What exactly is a nisayon about winning 3 unwinnable wars, in 3 different time periods? What do you suggest that they just be like” Ok guys that was a good run, thanks for the sport, this is a test so we decided to hand back the country to the Ottomans/British or whoever”?


    Right, great question – the challenge of the eigel was to see if klal yisroel would follow Hashem, or believe in Moshe rabbeinu independently of Him, explains the meshech chochma. Moshe was only an emissary of Hashem, with no independent powers of his own.

    The challenge of the success of the zionists is more fundamental – will we believe in the false promises of nationalism, the avodah zara of adding European zeitgeist ideology into judaism, the acceptance of the secular jewish identity as valid, the claims that the gedolim were wrong about making aliyah and that the zionists were right, the claims that we should be militant and not behave like jews have for thousands of years in galus….the list goes on.

    And unfortunately, those who legitimatize the state and believe in the “miracles” being a stamp of approval from shomayim continuously fail in all or most of these challenges. Not to mention that their frumkeit suffers in general from their influence from the zionist culture which they refuse to disavow and rebuke, in their worldview that such rebuke is sinas chinom.

    Granted, the rabbonim who espoused such beliefs did not end up like that – they were yereim veshlaimim, and some were tzadikim way, way above our understanding, including the ponevezher rov zy”a, but as time went on, those opinions were not kept by the next generation of gedolim. After the dust cleared and the truth became clearer, we aren’t presented with the same challenges of Holocaust survivors who suddenly had a reprieve from years of torture at the hands of non jewish oppressors. We have our own nisyonos which the previous generations would have laughed at, such as technology.

    But those who are mamshich darcham of such figures as the ponevezher rov do not refrain anymore from reciting tachanun on 5 iyyar. And there’s a good reason for that.


    Comparing the “nisayon” of the State of Israel to that of the holocaust is preposterous. Had the state been run by yere shamayim youd been singing a different tune- despite its being founded with not the most pure intentions. But it didn’t work out that way. That Eretz Yisrael is in our hands is probably the greatest gift Bore Olam has given us as a nation since the last time we received it. Calling that a nisayon is simply kefiyat hatov. No one asked you to support it, just to recognize that it isn’t your greatest enemy, and in fact is a step in the right direction towards biat Hamashiach.


    Behaving like Jews instead of being strong? Jews were very strong under the Kingdoms of Israel. Who said the definiton of a Jew has to be weak? And no matter what, Israel is under Jewish control currently, at this point the only option is to persevere and go with it. You wouldnt be happy to see its destruction would you?
    There is still room for Geulah, Israel is not a kingdom, it isnt religious state, and there arent the final borders. In fact even the modern state Israel doesnt have its full borders such as West Bank and Gaza with the occupiers currently there.
    Also you can see we got Israel with a catch, the invaders that are constantly pestering around making life unsettling.


    user – exhibit A.

    and yes, it would be vastly different if run by frum people, because it wouldn’t be a massive chilul Hashem that broadcasts to the world that this is the Jewish people. the Jewish people eat treif, are mechalel shabbos, do whatever they want with whoever they want, embrace toevos in the streets of the holy city…and you’re using the “if it were frum it wouldnt bother you so much”… a “gatcha”?

    Are you saying that I’m biased…towards frumkeit? I’ve heard many MO people say this before, in an attempt at “neutrality,” that the torah perspective is “biased” towards religion, and that “they” see the full truth…it’s one of the apikorsus mindsets that have evaded my many discussions here of MO/religious zionism, and if you bought into it…well, you failed the nisayon. plain and simple.

    And yes, everyone asks me to support it. If you don’t support the state, you’re a fanatic, neturei karta/satmar person who doesn’t deserve to be called up for aliyos in many shuls. Not believing in the state is more disqualifying than outright kefirah in many circles, and Rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik bemoaned this openly, saying that unfortunately, one can disagree with Moshe rabbeinu, but not, chas veshalom, menachem begin.

    How is having the land the greatest gift? what has it brought us? More people sin with it by not keeping shmita/terumah/maaser….isn’t that a net loss? Didn’t chazal cancel mitzvos in order to not do aveiros, like lulav and esrog on shabbos, because maybe, maybe one yiddeleh would carry? All the mitzvos hatluyos baaretz aren’t worth the aveiros of those who break them, every day, every shmitah, all the time.


    Everything – even good things – is a nisayon. It’s about the nuances.


    And if you think that the state has contributed to Torah learning, and that there’s an obligation of hakaras hatov for what they give us…i will aay that they take from us more than what they give. They are unauthorized to take taxes, yet they do. They repeatedly try to draft our young people into the shmad army, to make them frei when they don’t even need them. They bar us from many jobs with discrimination. They treat us horribly during protests for our freedom to live undisturbed in our neighborhoods. They stole the frumkeit of 1 million sefardim and many Taimanim who were driven out of their ancestral homes. They and their “rabbis” pollute klal yisroel with fake gerim and mamzerim.

    They took the soul of our people.

    So if they throw us a little money, does that solve it? They give more to secular people in the form of public schools and better infrastructure in their cities. They give less to the frummer.

    But is there a chiyuv hakaras hatov despite all of that? Perhaps there is. We have hakaras hatov to paroh for giving us a place during galus, after all. But do we sing his praises? Did we support him and his country? Did we accept his ideology? No. We take their gerim after 3 doros… that’s the extent of it.

    So what hakaras hatov should we have for zionists? Great question, and i don’t know the answer to it. But it never can involve violating the Torah by doing chanifah, supporting the state, accepting zionism, or anything else of the sort.


    Also, torah communities thrive in any western country – the US makes it a lot easier to be a kolel family than israel does, with limitless opportunities for the women to work, and with better government programs.


    Your thesis is basically: The medina is a bad idea because the people are making a Chilul Hashem.
    With that thinking why did Yehoshua bother bringing Klal Yisrael in to EY the first time around when a mere few generations later it turned into wholesale Avodah Zara, Civil war, blooshed and immorality much worse then the modern state of Israel.
    What about when Ezra brought Klal Yisrael back in round #2? A very large percentage were married to goyim?!?

    As far as your questions to my comment from Motsai Shabbos, how do you explain Hashems intro statemen to Avraham, Yitzchak Yaakov and Moshe Rebbeinu all being that I will give you Eretz Yisroel – its should have been I will give you the Torah in Boro Park or Lakewood?!?

    My feeling is that you need to read the whole of Tanach cover to cover 2-3 times and then come back to the table.


    Right, chazal say that we are not supposed to fight with goyim in galus. It’s one of the three oaths that we swore to Hashem. And what will happen if we break that promise? Hashem said that He would allow our flesh to be eaten like animals.

    What we did before galus has no bearing on the behavior demanded of us during galus. And lest you dismiss an open genara as “agadeta”, whatever people mean when they do that, yhe rambam, who I’m sure you love quoting when he says to go to work, wrote a letter to the oppressed Yemenite community not to rebel and to keep the oaths.

    ☕️coffee addict

    “How is having the land the greatest gift? what has it brought us? More people sin with it by not keeping shmita/terumah/maaser….isn’t that a net loss?“

    I see it as the opposite, now that we have land more people are keeping shmittah, terumos, and maaseros (and those that aren’t are tinoks shenishhbahs

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more people keeping shmittah than during the first beis hamikdash


    M – you’re reading tanach from cover to cover….like a book. You’re reading it the way the goyim do, when they refer to it as the “bloody old testament” because from a superficial reading, you’d think everyone’s killing people lawlessly all the time.

    Maybe open a rashi on tanach and then come to the table? But even without rashi, we can look at some things in the pesukim and see that there’s a lot going on between the lines. Eliyahu was able to eat food from the table of izevel, because despite her baal neviim, even she ate glatt kosher food! The rishonim say that she actually converted.

    Klal yisroel kept the Torah in eretz yisroel, and the dreadful downfalls were the exceptions. Check out rav avigdor millers seforim on tanach to see more of this.

    The old zionist narrative that we always had sinners and they’re part of the klal, and that we’re the same as we were in the times of neviim… They really need to learn chazal, rishonim… It’s just a lie taught to children in school without any basis in mesorah.

    The Torah WAS given outside eretz yisroel, on purpose, because eretz yisroel isn’t what makes us a nation. The Torah did. Eretz yisroel is a precious tool to serve Hashem in the optimal way, but we lost it because of our sins. It’s not ours unconditionally – Hashem told us in the tochacha that if we sin, we will lose it. And we did.

    Coffee, i hear your perspective, but i preempted it by saying that chazal cancelled mitzvos due to the mere possibility of people sinning. Klal yisroel’s shofar, 4 minim… Aren’t worth it if one jew *might* carry… Accidentally!!

    Kal vechomer it’s not worth it for us to have eretz yisroel in order to keep shmitah etc if the MAJORITY will sin WILLFULLY, even if they’re tinokos shenishbu, which is far from clear. I think you’d agree that at least some chilonim aren’t, if they grew up somewhat religious.


    > Didn’t chazal cancel mitzvos in order to not do aveiros, like lulav and esrog on shabbos, because maybe, maybe one yiddeleh would carry?

    Avira is seeing the light finally and starting to advocate for rescinding the chumros that lead some to see the rest of us as baalei aveira?


    > i will aay that they take from us more than what they give. They are unauthorized to take taxes, yet they do.

    there is such a thing as contract. People living together as one country agree on a government system that is entitled to govern within the norms. You are usually free to leave and join some other country if you wish so, but cheating while pretending to “contribute more” will not gain you many friends here or elsewhere. Even if you feel victimized, remember R Huna who refused to pay workers who already “helped himself” is shown to be wrong both min hashamayim and by other Talmidei Chachomim.


    Avirah you are clearly very knowledgeable, you’re ability to list the negative that the State of Israel has brought to the world so eloquently is impressive. So for you not to be able to think of at least one positive brought about by the State for which to be makir tov is beyond imagination. Especially since you postulated that Israel is a net loss implying that there is some positive. The only explanation is that you didn’t even give your mind a chance to go there lest your mind waver towards the Zionist snare. If you should choose to venture out you will find that there is a Torah Renaissance happening all over the world. The amount of rehokim coming close to Torah is immeasurable. The Jewish community at large is a lot greater in number than those already committed to Torah. If you believe in the power of Torah to influence the world and you recognize that the Torah of Eretz Yisrael has an effect beyond imagination than you’ll realize that the ripple effect enabled by the State of Israel has a tremendous influence on world Jewry. If there is something to learn from yetziat mitzrayim for this topic it is that geula is not dependent on total dedication to Yahadut. Hashem chose to give His Torah to a group of people who not long before were at the lowest possible levels. It is obvious that the bad can’t be ignored but don’t let it blind you from the good that Hashem has bestowed on us. Don’t speak so negatively without anything good to say. I wish there was more I can do to contribute to making Medinat Yisrael a better place and it aches me that such unspeakable things could be happening there, but instead of doubting the Creators plan and complaining that it isn’t how I think it should be, I choose to recognize the good that He has done and see the larger picture that in the end it’s all part of the master plan.


    > US makes it a lot easier to be a kolel family than israel does, with limitless opportunities for the women to work, and with better government programs.

    Some of the Israeli social programs, as I understand, are directly supporting charedi communities due to their participation in politics, while US programs are geared towards supporting poor who are not able to find work, so they are not available for erliche yiden.


    Re: Rambam and the oaths. I don’t think this has the weight you imply. This is a letter to a subjugated community under duress, and he is trying to stop them from a rebellion that will surely lead to their full destruction. How would Rambam react to a viable Jewish state in EY remains unresolved from that, I think.

    We might infer Rambam’s view on desirability of modern Israel in EY here: he asks you to consider the world to be balanced in mitzvos and aveiros and yours to be a deciding factor, so presumably he would just sum up mitzvos v. aveiros in EY to make a decision. I don’t know how to calculate this precisely, but it seems that proportion of Jews keeping shabbat, yomim tovim, kashrut, marrying Jews is way higher than in US or Ukraine for the lst 100 years.


    Aaq…i have no idea where you’re going with this

    ☕️coffee addict

    “Coffee, i hear your perspective, but i preempted it by saying that chazal cancelled mitzvos due to the mere possibility of people sinning. Klal yisroel’s shofar, 4 minim… Aren’t worth it if one jew *might* carry… Accidentally!!“

    I understand what you are saying, however

    “they aren’t canceling the mitzvah completely, only if it falls out on shabbos, and originally it was only cancelled outside of the mikdash, in the beis hamikdash they still did all those things (this was before galus edom)

    “Kal vechomer it’s not worth it for us to have eretz yisroel in order to keep shmitah etc if the MAJORITY will sin WILLFULLY, even if they’re tinokos shenishbu, which is far from clear. I think you’d agree that at least some chilonim aren’t, if they grew up somewhat religious.“

    Would you say the same thing about Kiruv? There’s a lot of people that will drive home on shabbos purposely? What about Pesach? People will eat chametz anyway!

    It seems like the chachamim did it specifically by shabbos and in a case where the mitzvah won’t be forgotten (every year Rosh Hashana falls out on a different day of the week, and there were two days outside of eretz yisrael) and if you say that we should “give up” eretz yisrael, no Jew would live there? If they would a not frum could also and it wouldn’t solve anything

    ☕️coffee addict

    I also want to add that it’s only by muktzeh (something that’s drabbonon because they did it as a geder to protect shabbos

    It’s not a blanket thing (even though we say יש כח לחכמים לעקור דבר מן התורה….)


    Regarding the 3 Oaths, there were many major Rabbonim who held they didn’t apply:
    R’ Meir Simcha of Dvinsk held that the Balfour Declaration ended them, as they couldn’t be considered to be rebelling anymore. The Tzitz Eliezer went a step further – he held that since the UN voted to establish a Jewish Homeland, it would be rebelling to ignore them, and therefore they were obligated to form the State.
    R’ Shlomo Kluger held that since Jews were severely persecuted by the other nations, the Oaths were no longer binding – he relied on the Shulchan Aruch which says it needs both sides to maintain an agreement.
    A huge group of Rabbonim also held that the only migration that was forbidden was when it was forced. Since nobody forced the immigration to happen, it didn’t violate the Oath.

    There are definitely issues with the State of Israel, but I don’t think the Oaths are one (or three?) of them. i see both potential for good and potential for bad in the State (along with good and bad outcomes), and choose to focus on the good. Everything in the world comes from Hashem, and everything has the potential for both good and bad. Israel is no different.


    Coffee, it’s true that chazal only suspended mitzvos in circumstances which weren’t constant, such as YT that falls on shabbos, but not fully, because tefilin are a mitzvah that medoraysoh is fulfilled at night, and chazal forbade it, because you might fall asleep, etc…chazal also, in the times of amoraim, forbade yibum because of abba shaul. There are other times when chazal suspended mitzvos too, as you said, yesh koach etc…

    Also, with muktzeh, i think you’re mixing up cause and effect. An esrog in only muktzeh on shabbos because chazal said there’s no mitzvah; they didn’t cancel the mitzvah because it’s muktzeh.

    In the beis hamikdash they didn’t have shvusim…i think i remember seeing meforshim say that the cohanim are nizharim and won’t come to violating issur shabbos. But don’t quote me on that. Either way, I don’t see what that has to do with the discussion.

    Am i correct that you’re saying that according to my logic, no one should live in EY because some might sin, and you’re saying that we see that chazal only forbade mitzvos partially, allowing others to do them? If so, there’s a misunderstanding. I never said that no one should live in EY – no gedolim to my knowledge ever said that literally no one belongs there. There was always a torah community in some form in EY, as there should be. It’s an incredible mayloh in one’s torah and avodas Hashem if they can live there, but it’s also a lot worse to be a sinner there, too.

    Not supporting the state doesn’t mean no one should live there – but supporting it in many ways does. At least it means that you’re supporting the frei who currently live there to continue living under a government which does not require shmiras hamitzvos. To those who say that the state is a good thing, because it facilitates mitzvos, my answer is that since it facilitates and encourages aveiros, that outweighs any good that it might do, since chazal viewed the loss of an aveirah as more devastating to the klal than neglecting a positive mitzvah.

    However it should also be said that mitzvos in general weigh a lot more than aveiros, and this, says the tomer devorah, is the reason why Hashem doesn’t cancel out mitzvos and aveiros and just give us olan haba without gehinnom. The ramak says that it would be a horrific loss for us, because the schar for one mitzvah is far, far more than the punishment for an aveirah.

    But that’s on an individual level. On a societal level, we see that chazal did everything in their power, even being mevatel mitzvos, to prevent jews from sinning. How much more so should we not support an institution which encourages and facilitates those and worse sins.

    As for kiruv, we’re doing our hishtadlus according to halacha. We can’t force people to become frum, and if they end up sinning after we invite them for shabbos, it’s not on our cheshbon – but the halacha is that you must make accomodations for them available, because otherwise the poskim say that it is takeh lifnei iver.

    Baby Squirrel

    Reacquisition of Eretz Yisroel our historic homeland is probably the greatest gift Hashem has given us in the last 2000 years. Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l said that the State of Israel was given to us as a test by Hashem to see how we will govern ourselves now that we finally have our own independence for the first time in so long. Will we run the country according to the laws of the torah and halacha? or Chas Veshalom turn against the Moralishkeit of the torah and institute all kinds of goyish policies/practices that come from europe?

    In the beginning the founders of the State were secular zionists and anti-religious. Now as the years go by the country is becoming more and more frum and ideologically/religiously in line with the Torah.

    I see this as a waiting game; before long the Medina will present itself as a Kiddush Hashem and a אור לעיני העמים (which is what we are supposed to be) as opposed to what it is today which is mostly a chilul hashem…


    so, if we are supposed to do hishtadlus for frei yidden, then we probably should meet them where they are – and half of them are in Medinat Israel. Not sure then what “supporting medinah” mean v. other activities? None of us are voting in UN … many gedolim support voting for various reasons …

    does working and paying business count as “supporting”? Maybe you consider paying taxes to “medinah” an aveira and prefer to avoid those, or allow taking their money because you will be a better judge of how to use it? I don’t see how this is different from getting into a business partnership with some frei Yidden – I presume you should respect common interest and be an honest partner, while still protecting your keeping shabbos and all. Do you have classical sources how to behave in such partnership?

    Gittin 62 from another thread discusses minimizing saying shalom to non-Jews who work in EY during shemitah, maybe that can give some support to your position.


    Baby, rav miller was vehemently anti zionist and would often…. Actually it’s in every one of his own hashkofa seforim, castigate zionism and zionists. I don’t think he would have said that it’s some sort of present with a nisayon attached to it – it doesn’t fit what he wrote in his seforim.

    did you hear it on a tape? Or did you hear it in his name? Because people misquote him quite a lot. I believe rav pam may have said something similar to what you’re quoting.

    Aaq, good points. When I said “support,” I’m referring to political solidarity; we American jews do a lot of lobbying for Israel, and not only does it play into the dual-loyalty trope, but it services a system which, like i said, is a net loss for the klal. Much of our resources are spent on “hasbara” and a lot of campus kiruv work involves trying to get secular jewish college students to not only learn about yiddishkeit, but support the “jewish” state which they’re constantly being told is evil to Palestinians. How many students have been turned off to yiddishkeit because they believe their professors’ claims over thw kiruv rabbis? We should, at the very least, adopt a non-zionist approach with these kids, not to alienate the pro israel ones, and not to turn off the anti Israel kids either.

    How to deal with the frei in EY is very complicated; organizations like keren hashviis do amazing things, and many frei farmers have embraced shmitah because of the help they offer. That’s an example of what American jews can do to stem the tide of chilul Hashem etc… But in any case, we’re not in a position to impose halacha at this point in time.


    Avirah, Shmittah and trumos&maaseros are de’Rabbonon nowdays.
    In the US they would never ever agree to directly support that large chunk of population in kollel.

    ☕️coffee addict

    coffee, Israel has a world-class military, world-class firepower, and world-class trained soldiers. The Palestinians have old kalashnikovs, poorly trained fighters, and very little resources. No, it is not a neis nigleh that Israelis can trounce them.

    Please don’t think I’m being sympathetic to the Palestinians; I’m not, I’m merely pointing out the facts that Israel is far, far superior to them and most of the Arab world in every facet of its military.

    It’s like stepping on ants.

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