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If it were up to me, there would be no Mehadrin buses anywhere in Israel starting right away.
I’m seriously considering to vote Meretz in the next elections, since they are the only ones who actually fight against the Mehadrin buses.
You want reasons? Let me tell you a real story.
Last week (Thursday 7 May) , me and my wife got to the 400’s first stop (at Olmei Modi’in, Ben Gurion Str.) in Bnei Brak / Ramat Gan, at 23:25 (11:25 PM). The last 400 leaves at 23:40. Since I was feeling a bit sick, and I have always had car sickness (sitting in the back of a bus is very bad for me), and I simply refuse to not sit together with my wife, we decided to take davka the 400 and not the 402. (For the uninitiated: the 400 is not Mehadrin, the 402 is – they have almost the same route.)
The last 400 simply didn’t come. Each of the 402 drivers that passed said “he’s right behind me”, until the fourth one (!) at 00:13 told us “the last 400 was defective, it broke down, you’ll have to travel with me or stay here”.
So we took the 402 and sat in front, together. We had to incur insults, shouts, screams and angry faces from other ‘frum’ passengers. I tried to explain that I would happily take the 400, given one – but there was no 400, the last 400 didn’t go. I didn’t have a choice. It didn’t matter, these wild chayos didn’t care, rules are rules… you get it.
At one point, on Rechov Ezra, I decided that if one more person would complain, as of the next day I would be wearing a kippah srugah and davening at a dati leumi shul. Miraculously, nobody complained from then on.
This is why it’s been enough for me. I absolutely support the idea of unrelated men and women not sitting next to each other, as is common practice on city buses such as the 1, 2, 11, 15, 16, 35, 39, and 36. But the ‘Mehadrin bus’ idea has simply gone too far.
Currently, whenever I have a choice, I take a non-Mehadrin bus anywhere I go. If I go to Bnei Brak, the 400; to Petach Tikvah, the 947 (or 400 and a Dan city bus). No more Mehadin buses for me, unless I don’t have a choice.
Your complaint here is with Egged, not with the people on the bus. Granted Egged wronged you by not sending out the 400. But what right do you have breaking the rules of the 402?? Egged instituted the 402 since they have the clientele who wants it. What right did you have for going against the rules of the 402 and offending the other riders? The fact that Egged failed to send a 400 is not justification.
You went out of your way to make a cheap point on the bus and it offended people, and they let it be known they were offended.
Please spare us this shouting from the rooftops, whether it be in the CR or in the Yedioth Ahronoth.
tolerance is key to our existance, learn to see other ways of life and accept your own
“JayMatt19: I wasn’t making a point. The simple fact is that when I sit in the back (or even the middle) of a bus for a long time (like an hour), I get sick. The second fact is that I want to sit together with my wife. I think it is completely ridiculous to demand that a husband and wife should sit separately on a bus. If others want to do so, fine, but don’t force me to live that way.”
Yes you were making a point. Okay, fine sit in the front of the bus. But even you yourself are saying “I think it is completely ridiculous to demand that a husband and wife should sit separately on a bus. If others want to do so, fine, but don’t force me to live that way.” They are not forcing you, Egged forced you. Egged has two buses to accommodate all travelers. They failed to accommodate your beliefs, how dare you now try to change the 402 into a bus which caters your lifestyle. Why must you sit with your wife for all to see to show that you are objecting to your view that “they are forcing you to live that way”.
How would you feel if someone came onto the 400 (since the 402 was not running) and demanded that the men and women sit separately? Of course it would bother you, yet you think it is fine to do the reverse.
You also said: “I told the complainers on the 402 that they should direct their complaints to Egged, not to me. “
No, their complain is with you for your choice of violating the code of conduct for the 402 and your perceived justification of your behavior. Your complaint is with egged for not providing you with a bus which satisfies your “needs”. You are not the one to decide that the 402 will now become the 400 since you are on it.
You did have choices, you could have sat apart from your wife, you could have cabbed/taken a sherut. This sense of entitlement you have exhibited here is horrific.
Daniel Breslauer, if you vote Meretz (the most despicable party in the world, selling out Jews like Mars bars)because of your little rift with Egged you will betray the entire Jewish nation and pay the consequences. Why not vote for Ichud Leumi? They are a party with great ideals, and were endorsed by some great Gedolim, including Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu shlita, and Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky shlita, who is the son of the Steipler ztz”l
Daniel, also it says ‘I WANTED to sit next to my wife!’ Thus you are disregarding the bus’ rules because of your personal request?
RULES OVERRIDE SELFISHNESS
I think Mehadrin buses are ok for the clientele they serve but…
I had a friend on a mehadrin bus, travelling with a male friend of hers. The ride was long and they wanted to talk, so they sat one seat behind each other near the dividing line. The people on the bus got very upset and part way through the ride, had them KICKED off the bus. They also called her really nasty names (like prutza and zona). I didnt realize Mehadrin meant that no one could converse nor that conversation made her a bad person.
Is talking to a member of the opposite gender not allowed on these buses?
Its a shame we cannot all get along…
Daniel Breslauer, you would make a great chilul H-shem if you report your version of the story to Yedioth Ahronoth. There is also another version of the story from the other passengers. Everyone who willingly takes the Mehadrin buses are satisfied with the Mehadrin rules, this is why the system was built. BTW, why would you post this story where most of the readers are frum? What kind of machloket are you trying to start?
SJSinNYC, was the female in your story perhaps was talking about inappropriate subjects or being a bit too loud and being the center of attraction where innocent ears of our tinokot shel beit raban may be influenced? I don’t agree with name calling and I do agree with you that we should “all” get along, but there must be mutual respect. I’m sure this female friend wouldn’t walk into 100 sha’arim in a bathing suit. One has to respect the area according to it’s standards.
JayMatt, you wrote, “How would you feel if someone came onto the 400 (since the 402 was not running) and demanded that the men and women sit separately? Of course it would bother you, yet you think it is fine to do the reverse.”
Actually, Daniel did not keep other people on the bus from sitting separately; he just sat next to his wife, but didn’t keep other people from sitting as they liked. Yet he and his wife were shouted at & insulted. I am not clear on why insulting people in public is more tznisudig then allowing a husband and wife to sit together peacefully. Perhaps someone could explain this to me.
The reverse situation would indeed occur if a couple boarded the 400 bus and then proceeded to insult any couple sitting separately. This would be completely out of order & would definitely warrant immediate ejection from the 400.
Daniel, I am sorry you were insulted this way. But I agree that voting for meretz would not be a good choice.
Elisha, she wasn’t talking about anything inappropriate. They called her those names purely because she was talking to someone of the opposite gender. She was trying to follow their rules by being separate, but they were still nasty to her. She is very respectful.
anon for this, you are missing the point. A separate bus means men and women sit separately. The fact that he chose to sit next to his wife made the bus a non-separate bus. If a women sits in the mens section in shul on shabbos, can you still say it is separate seating?
Additionally, he chose to sit next to her in the front of the bus, for everyone who boarded to see.
The real chilul Hashem is with the passengers who shouted at Daniel and his wife, publicly embarrassing them- don’t we learn in the Gemara that publicly embarrassing a person is akin to killing him? Furthermore, I have never understood the rationale behind Mehadrin buses. Any accidental brushing up against a person of the opposite sex cannot be connoted as Derech Chiba, unless perhaps the bus is particularly crowded, and anyway, in this situation we are talking about a married couple, so negiah is not even an issue. I see no reason why the passengers should have gotten so worked up over this.
They are worked up over it because they fought hard to get something which they want, i.e. a bus with separate seating. only to have this guy KNOWINGLY!!!! violate the code of conduct for this bus. this is not a halacha issue and do not turn it into one.
This was no different than an airline passenger with a kippa who stands up during landing to take out his bags with the seatbelt light on and everyone else sitting. Both publicly and knowingly violate the code of conduct. Whether you agree with said code of conduct is irrelevant, it is still a known violation.
It is also sad that Daniel could care less about the feelings of the other passengers. Putting himself before others
By choosing not to take the risk that he might be sick all over whatever man had the misfortune of sitting next to him in the back, he put himself before others?
By choosing not to take the risk that he might be sick all over whatever man had the misfortune of sitting next to him in the back, he put himself before others?
He can be in the front. He just can’t be there with his wife. Why is this so difficult to understand? both for him to understand and for you?
JayMatt, I understand what you are saying, and if the other passengers had said, “excuse me, I think you are on the wrong bus” & politely explained the rules, this would have been perfectly appropriate. At that point Daniel would’ve explained why he sat in the front with his wife & perhaps the other passengers would’ve found a better solution to his dilemma (as he stated, he wanted to sit in the front to reduce his chance of becoming ill and probably wanted his wife next to him so she could help him in case he did become ill). This would have been an appropriate reaction, given that the other passengers were presumably motivated by a desire for tznius.
For those posters who think Daniel was in the wrong here, please explain how the reaction of the other passengers demonstrates tznius? As many have so helpfully pointed out in other threads, tznius is not just about the clothes one wears but also about the way one behaves. And most of us would agree that true tznius brings a kiddush haShem to the world, not chalilah the opposite.
SJSinNYC, maybe this was an isolated case for your friend. I frequently take mehadrin buses and do sit on that so called “border” towards the back of the bus and do speak with my family and often see the same where wives speak to their husbands and vice versa. However, most of the time it is in a low tone of voice. Till this day, I have never been insulted nor heard anyone be insulted. Oy! I wonder what happened this time around with your friend – it sounds so out of the ordinary.
Daniel Breslauer, One time we were traveling on mehadrin 451 to Yerushaliim, where I also got sick and wanted to throw up. The bus driver kindly pulled over for a few minutes while “it all came out” and when I was done, we resumed the drive. The bus was full and not only did everyone wait patiently, but I was showered with “is everything alright?” and “do you need some water?” type of comments. I couldn’t thank the driver and the passengers enough. Maybe, this is a bit out of the ordinary, but there are good stories and unfortunate stories – this is a fact with everything in life. In either case, it’s a nisayon from H-shem and we must think 5 steps ahead before acting or reacting. Remember, we are being filmed 24/7. You’re in the spot light right now – what will be your next remark ……………???????????????????
anon: “(as he stated, he wanted to sit in the front to reduce his chance of becoming ill and probably wanted his wife next to him so she could help him in case he did become ill).”
Except that he did not say this. Look at his posts.
“and I simply refuse to not sit together with my wife,”
and
“I tried to explain that I would happily take the 400, given one – but there was no 400, the last 400 didn’t go. I didn’t have a choice”
Nothing about needing to be next to his wife. Nothing about being ill. He chose to blame Egged and show that he was entitled to do what he did. He knew the rules, he just thought that they did not apply to him because he was “forced” to take the mehadrin bus.
“For those posters who think Daniel was in the wrong here, please explain how the reaction of the other passengers demonstrates tznius?”
One has nothing to do with the other. Daniel was wrong, he used Egged to justify his behavior. He was wearing the same kippa as everyone else on the bus, yet he chose to do differently then them, they told him to get in line and that they were offended. Why is that counter-tznius?
elisha y: welcome to the cr! head to the new member’s thread to get a proper welcome from everyone!
not much for me to say on this matter, in israel i barely take buses!
10Q Jax – yes, I am pretty green – hope to be ripe soon. Yishar Koyach for the welcoming!!!!!!!!!!!!
JayMatt, but they didn’t tell him to get back on line. They screamed at him & insulted him; perhaps if they would’ve discussed the situation calmly & politely they could’ve arrived at a mutually agreeable solution instead of creating a chillul haShem in front of the other passengers & bus driver. Apparently we see things differently; I believe that if a person is riding a particular bus for tznius reasons it behooves him to actually behave in a tzniusdig manner, even if the situation isn’t as he prefers. And I don’t think yelling at & insulting people is very tzniusdig. Obviously you disagree.
Sorry you feel that it is not tznius to stand up for what you believe in. Sometimes one needs to speak nicely, and other times one needs to be forceful (have yet to hear a valid argument that we are not being nice enough to Hamas). Speaking harshly or forcefully in not necessarily counter-tznius whilst speaking nicely is not necessarily automatically tzanuah.
Additionally, one often bring these things onto themself the way they choose to behave and initiate. He was not apologetic, and he himself acted with a sense of entitlement no wonder people were not nice to him. We see that Yaakov avinu blessed his sons that THEY be balei rachamim when they go down mitzrayim to negotiate the release of their brother. Why did Yaakov give this blessing? Because the only way the Egyptian viceroy would have mercy is if they themselves showed mercy. NEVERTHELESS, LOOK AT HOW FORCEFUL YEHUDA WAS WITH HIS WORDS!! WAS HE NOT TZNIUS?
This situation demonstrates the knee-jerk reaction to loss of control. First, Daniel had his choice of transportation taken away from him. Then, the people on the bus had their equilibrium taken away from them. In both cases, they reacted by trying to force the situation back into their control. Unfortunately, and although this is the most natural, primitive way to react to loss of control, it is also the most ineffective.
Daniel, you were not stuck. Yes, your first choice transportation was taken away. But you still had many options: take a cab, take a sheirut, hitchhike, stay overnight and get your bus in the morning, OR take the mehadrin bus and conform to the rules that bind the occupants of the bus. You chose the latter, whether because you ruled out the other choices as too expensive, too dangerous, too much of a schlep, etc, and yet you also chose to violate the rules of the bus that gave you the ride!? So you chose to ride mehadrin but not k’mehadrin. If you had chosen to ride an Arab bus, I’m sure your wife would have put on the burka. What you did was not fair. And not effective. Yes, you got back home at low financial cost, but now you are ranting to anyone who will listen. For how long will this event plague you, and how badly will you be disillusioned from this for the rest of your life? And how many people will you have to rally against the mehadrin busses before your angst is quieted? If you had spent the extra $50 to take a cab, you would have also gotten home but with less mental anguish – AND you could have asked Egged to reimburse you (money can be reimbursed, not discomfort).
As for the people on the bus, what they did was equally primitive. Yelling is immediate. When you take a hammer away from a 2 year old who picked it up, he yells instantly. However, that never gets the parent to give back the hammer. The yelling is a thoughtless response, an immediate protest. Which is probably the same reaction that the people on the bus gave you – an immediate protest – so that you shouldn’t even think for a second that they accept what you did. But as you know (better than anyone), that did not achieve the greater goal of actually reinstating the mehandrin standard. So they just got upset and stayed upset, while you basked in the ubiquitous anger and stayed upset too. Sadly for the bus riders, they have to deal with this type of upset frequently enough that they were probably able to forget about it right away. I know this because I haven’t seen any articles in Ma’ariv (or posters on the walls of Meah Shearim) publicizing the injustice they suffered on that night.
JayMatt, you are equating Daniel’s behavior with that of Paroh and Hamas in order to justify the insults he and his wife endured. I recognize that we cannot agree, because I don’t think sitting in front of a bus with one’s wife is comparable to c”v blowing up thousands of people. So I really have no more to say to you.
I was not doing such a thing. I was mocking this ridiculous notion that if we only speak nicely to eachother all can be worked out.
Thanks however for publically and incorrectly stating that I equated Daniel’s behavior to that of Paroh and Hamas. I appreciate it.
Oh, and by the way, the Egyptian viceroy in the story was Yosef, not Paroh. I did not say Yosef since it was not known at the time that it was Yosef. Thanks Again
As per your letter, I would not mention anything about you being a Charedi who is against the mehadrin bus, it seems to detract from your true issue with egged. All you need to state is that you prefer the 400 as you like to sit in the front with your wife, and that if the schedule says there will be a 400, it is within your right to decline a ride on the 402 since you have been assured that there will be a 400
I personally don’t believe that denial was much of a chariady lover (to say the least) before this incident he probably did it just to test the responds and then have another reason to bash and complain about this blackheads. so even though i think that the people on the bus mishandled the situation don’t get carried away and be aware of the real motive behind this.
His name is Daniel, not denial
Thank you Jay Matt I appreciate your spelling lessons.
If you think that was a spelling lesson you are missing something
If you’ll google the definition of the word denial you will see how its relevent to our story. and who is missing something
What’s being done here is what is done in every argument in the CR. In order to justify an action, the in-justification (made up word) of the REaction is brought to the fore. Don’t mix one with the other (tzimish nisht dee yoitris!). What Daniel did is one thing- and that is the core of the argument here. How the chareidi community reacts to those that violate what they’ve fought for is a whole different parsha.
Example: the livush business. Every MO person will bring the reiyah that wearing a black hat and jacket doesn’t make you frummer or- they’ll bring forth every story they know about a yeshivish guy doing something wrong while in his hat and jacket, resulting in a chillul Hashem yadayadayada. One has nothing to do with the next! Nobody is perfect- we all try our best. What- a person should walk around in jeans because he did an aveirah or even several aveiros?
Ok- I’m beginning to hock ah cheinik
I guess my point is not to interconnect one misdeed with another. One does not justify the other- they are two separate actions.
this is sad for so many reasons. hard to say mi kamcha yisroel after hearing stories like this
Daniel: What about ?? ???????? If in shul, where people are concentrating on Tfilloh, you are not allowed to change from the ????? (i.e. say ????? before/after ???? ???? where the ???? of that ??? is the opposite), then that should teach us “to do in Rome like the Romans do”. Just to make myself clear: I’m not saying that there is a ??? of?? ??????? on the bus. I’m saying that with that ??? we are taught not to do different than ???? ?????. That is pure ??? ???.
In Apeldoorn you can sit next to your wife without any worry.
In any case, my mehadrin bus experiences have been nothing but good, Baruch H-Shem. On the gashmiut side of it, one can say “maybe you live in a town where only nice and polite people live” but on the Ruchani side of it …….. really, Daniel, don’t we go thru certain nisyonot to test us? Doesn’t Hakadosh Baruch Hu want to see how we handle certain situations? If we go thru life having bitter experiences, Chazal teach us to “lefashpesh Bema’asaynu”
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