Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Meikil=Less Religious?
- This topic has 59 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 4 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
November 5, 2022 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #2135587Yabia OmerParticipant
Is the strict opinion always the better opinion? Is being Meikil inherently worse?November 5, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2135602
Depends; if someone has the attitude of not wanting to be bothered by mitzvos, then yes, they are less religious. It also depends on the issue; being maikil on talmud Torah, tznius, or other fundamentals, is usually indicative of a larger problem.
If you view your life as something you do for yourself, when you go to work, eat, have leisure time, and find yourself troubled by pesky halachos that get in the way of “your life” then you’re not very religious. A religious person views their life as avodas Hashem. As long as that’s your view, being meikil on various individual shailos doesn’t mean much.
And of course, you’re supposed to have a rov whose psakim you follow, so if you’re doing that, you’re definitely not “less religious”November 5, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2135605
Being meikel for the reason that it’s easier to be meikel, is inherently worse.November 5, 2022 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2135606
It’s not always better to be stricker in the halacha if it will cost you your shalom bayis and Marriage C”V if the issue your currently dealing with at hand is not a serious sin that for the sake of shalom bayis and saving your marriage you can give in to going to a certain location you usually prefer not to go to or keep Shabbos only until 72 instead of 90 minutes after sunset cause that’s how your spouse grew up keeping Shabbos if it will save your marriage over 18 minutes and no actual serious chillul Shabbos C”VNovember 5, 2022 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2135626☕️coffee addictParticipant
I’ve heard that when one is being meikil in one thing he’s being machmir in something elseNovember 5, 2022 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2135614
Yungerman, women who keep 72 are usually frum enough to know that they’re supposed to follow their husband’s minhagim, but i agree to you in theory.November 5, 2022 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2135613
Related Question for the oilem:
Reuven spends his entire life being machmir regarding Kashrus, he only eats Yoshon, Pas Yisroel, Cholov Yisroel, Glatt Kosher, etc., and only with the best and most reliable hashgochos. If he travels to an area that lacks the best Kashrus, he will always shlep ready to eat food from home rather than compromise his standards while traveling. He strictly follows these principles his entire life.
Shimon spends his entire life being meikel regarding Kashrus. He’s not strict about Yoshon, Pas Yisroel, Glatt, etc. And he uses any known Orthodox hashgacha (Triangle-K, Rabbanut, etc.)
Question 1: Will Reuven get more Oilem Haba than Shimon for his Kashrus practices? (Not overall for their life; the question is only regarding the reward in the Oilem HaEmes for each’s Kashrus practices during their lifetimes.)
Question 2: If your answer to Question 1 is no (or even if your answer is “unknown”), why shouldn’t Reuven immediately stop following his Kashrus practices and switch to the Kashrus lifestyle of Shimon?
Extra Credit: Change the above scenario from Kashrus practices to almost any other issue of Machmir versus Meikel, and answer the above two questions with that slightly modified version.November 5, 2022 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2135651smerelParticipant
>>>Is the strict opinion always the better opinion?
If it was halacha would follow Beis Shamai.
>>>Is being Meikil inherently worse?
Being meikal about what and why? Not always is being machmir the right thing in a specific situation but as the old joke goes: A guy who was always meikal and always found rabbis to give him hetterim dies. They take him to a room with a bench, a rickety shtender, a Shas and a cup of hot tea. “Where am I? “ he asks “Gan Eden” they answer “Do you know how many rabbi would tell you that being in a room with a gemorah where you can just learn undisturbed is Gan Eden? “November 5, 2022 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2135650
Each person gets rewards in the true world above only on the level of what is EXPECTED on his level of frumkeit from the way he grew up to his surroundings etc…..
Hashem doesn’t say you weren’t a tzaddik like Harav Chaim Kanievsky ZTL so you get no reward at all cause You weren’t expected to be such a tzaddik during your entire life only the exact level Hashem made you like. And that’s what we are all responsible for as parents and rabbonim etc…. Each according to their level exactly is what they get rewarded for upstairs and what they are held responsible for on their level.November 6, 2022 12:30 am at 12:30 am #2135658LostsparkParticipant
“I’ve heard that when one is being meikil in one thing he’s being machmir in something else”
I know some that are meikil in everything, and I don’t think they are up late at night studying Zohar by candlelight! 😂November 6, 2022 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2135656
yungermanS: Are you saying that a MO person who was brought up being meikel on tznius, Kashrus and Shabbos and continued that pattern throughout his life, and a Kollel yungerman who grew up in a Kollel family and followed that path including being machmir on tznius, Shabbos and Kashrus, and Rav Chaim Kanivesky who grew up in the Steipler’s home and continued in his father’s derech, are all going to get the same Olam Haba since, as you put it, he followed “his level of frumkeit from the way he grew up to his surroundings”?November 6, 2022 2:43 am at 2:43 am #2135670Sam KleinParticipant
of course Rav Chaim Kanievsky ZTL and all the Torah he learned is on a much higher level and REWARD then the MO or kollel man learning and will be rewarded much more then them and be on a much higher level in gan Eden then them also.
But someone who was born a MO person is not expected to be on the same level as a gadol Hador living and his learning and in truth guess what for a MO or reform jew to keep Shabbos it takes them more mesiras nefesh and giving things up their a regular frum yid who grew up keeping Shabbos with his family so the MO keeping Shabbos with mesiras nefesh his reward is bigger in the future world. a person is rewarded by how hard he worked for it to do the mitzvah. Ex. Building his sukkah himself versus paying a bochur to build it for him etc……November 6, 2022 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2135708Shimon NodelParticipant
Ujm mistook halacha for shiite islamism. It isn’t a sum game. It can very well be that Reuven is just very weird and has issues, or it can that he’s actually a huge parush. The point is, it depends on each person. If Reuven isn’t supposed to be machmir like he is, then I will be bold as to say that no, he won’t necessarily get more olam haha for doing itNovember 6, 2022 9:19 am at 9:19 am #2135711
Agree with a lot of posters here:
Fair statement about people being meikel because they simply disregard halakha and also about being meikel with chochma often helps.
Totally disagree that someone who learns whole life gets in a better olam habo. For example, Issachar/Zevulun partnership means that both get the same one, as far as I know. So, anyone who works and support the other one (either directly or pays full, or close to, tuition at Jewish schools thus supporting both those who teach and who do not pay much) should get a share of each person they support. I don’t know hw olam habo maths work, but this can add up to a bigger share.
But biggest issue is – meikel/machmir in what? If the Yoshon Reuven above is also a baal chesed, tzedokah, davens w/ kavana, etc, this is one thing, but if he is not a good husbanf, father, neighbor, co-worker – then not.November 6, 2022 9:19 am at 9:19 am #2135712
This is also discussed in Nedarim. Many people use chumros in the way of nedarim, taking upon themselves obligations that may not be necessary, even if they are praiseworthy. The goal of such nedarim is to motivate or protect themselves. As gemora says here, you can say “I am taking neder like reshayim” but not “like tzadikim” because the first ones like doing nedarim.
Note that I am talking here about yehidim. The question whether a community in our times does better with more chumros is a separate issue, and I am meikel here allowing more chumros 🙂November 6, 2022 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2135720simcha613Participant
Every situation and shaila is different and there is no one cut and dried answer in either direction. Which is why even attitudes like UJM “Being meikel for the reason that it’s easier to be meikel, is inherently worse.” might be inherently flawed as well. We just learned in daf yomi the shitah that a Nazir has to bring a Chatas because even though there is a purpose for some people to being a Nazir, and a Nazir is viewed as being a very holy individual, he has still sinned by withholding from himself some of the pleasures of this word. Sometimes the easy path is the right path, and choosing the more difficult one is not approproiate. Obviously you have to know yourself and be as unbiased as possible, as well as relying on a Rav who you trust to be knowledgeable and yashar, but an unecessary chumra (even in an effort to follow “all the shitos”) which leads to a limitiation of pleasure may also be incorrect.November 6, 2022 10:59 am at 10:59 am #2135747
No, they are cases that we avoid being strict, nidos and eruvin. The gemora says כח דהתירא עדיף where Rashi explains to asser something is no big deal as anyone can do that but to be matir, one had to learn from his rebbis to justify it.November 6, 2022 11:27 am at 11:27 am #2135751BenephraimParticipant
RE , do you by any chance remember the sefer Kocha Dehetera? I think it was part of a big machlokes between a Rabbi Friedman in Bensonhurst and another Rov.November 6, 2022 11:55 am at 11:55 am #2135760
Aaq, it’s true that yissachar and zevulun have the same schar, but how many baalei batim have a total Y/Z relationship? Most, do not. Especially those who deride kollel. How will they stack up to talmidei chachamin?
Also, my rosh yeshiva says bshem the gaon that Y/Z having the same schar only applies if the Z tried his best to bea Y, but hashgocha led him to have to work. Otherwise it’s not logical that one can just spuriously decide that he doesn’t want Torah.November 6, 2022 11:56 am at 11:56 am #2135761
Ujm, what do you think of the hagdara that i proposed?November 6, 2022 11:56 am at 11:56 am #2135762Get-r-dunParticipant
What about the mishna in avos “lefum tzaara agra” pretty explicit that your reward is on your effort. So if it’s more of an effort to be machmir ( real bona-fide chumras) then it follows that you should get more reward ( this is coming from someone that tries to be meikel!)November 6, 2022 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2135771
Avira > how many baalei batim have a total Y/Z relationship? Most, do not.
True, I am also not aware of people paring up this way in our times. It is mostly some provide funding, and some take. There are lots of people who provide for multiple learners – some names are on the buildings, others are not.November 6, 2022 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2135772
Avira > my rosh yeshiva says bshem the gaon that Y/Z having the same schar only applies if the Z tried his best to bea Y, but hashgocha led him to have to work. Otherwise it’s not logical
Right, whatever was logical for centuries, now is not based on your personal mesorah. Were you in charge of Gan Eden, would you know expel those Zevuluns that got there before this psak?November 6, 2022 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2135773
My mesorah, going back to Rambam, says that Y will only get schar if hashgaha made him unable to earn his own living. Otherwise, the whole reward goes to Z. Otherwise, it is not logical to spuriously decide that one does not want to support himself.November 6, 2022 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2135774
What if it is hard for me to be meikel?!
seriously, you need to define what is “an effort”. For many people, it is psychologically easy to be “like everyone around them”. They also feel accomplished by focusing on chumros, so this all sounds like nedarim and caveats above apply.
And also – how balanced is the person in all aspects of his life. Let’s say someone is a moser nefesh to be a surgeon, saving lives daily after an early minyan, then learns with a chevrusa, then learns with his children, helps them study towards a profession, spends quality time with his wife and delivers food and nachas to his elderly parents. At this point, he wonders – based on reading YWN – whether he is “frum” enough and wonders whether he needs to spend an extra 30 minutes of drive to pick up chalav isroel yogurt and milk, so that he will either learn less, has one less surgery, or disregard either the wife or one of the kids. What would be your advice?November 6, 2022 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2135779
Avira, I like it. Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam means always. There is no such thing as a “proper time” for learning, or an “improper time”. The Gemora says that only during a time when “it is not day or night” is the time for learning “not proper.” It’s not a question of right or wrong. The Halachah, as explained by the Ohr Sameach in Hilchos Talmud Torah, is that everyone has to learn an amount according to his level. The more a person understands the value of learning, the more time he must spend on it.
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.
Women need Torah, too. Without Torah, you cant get Olam Habah. And so the Gemora asks the question: Nashim b’,ai zachyan – How do women merit Olam Habah if they do not learn Torah? The Gemora answers; Bakroei banaihu l’bei kenishta, ib’asniyei gavraihu bai rabanon – by supporting and helping their husband and sons learn.November 6, 2022 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2135785akupermaParticipant
Hard to say. If someone is meikel about needing to support one’s family without relying on charity or handouts from the goyim, so they have more time to learn, is that good or bad?November 6, 2022 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2135961
akuperman; if someone feels that it’s “beneath” them to take charity, but could succeed in learning, it’s gaavah. If he thinks that the halacha discourages it and wants to follow the rambam, well, the radvaz says that we would have forgotten the torah if we would have followed that rambam, and rav moshe says that it’s gaavah as well in our time.November 6, 2022 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2135995
Aaq, nobody has a mesorah to follow your favorite 2 sentences from the rambam. They just don’t. Yekkies who believe in working also opened kollelim, like dayan grunfeld. You’re not convincing anyone and it’s just sad at this point. We follow poskim who came way after the rambam, there’s a chain of command. The poskim don’t go with it. Whatever emotional reasons you have for ignoring that is just not useful to anyone else and would result in less Torah, less nachas ruach to Hashem, less yiddishkeit, and more darkness in the world at a time when we need the light of torah more than ever to fight the nisyonos of our generation.November 6, 2022 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2136000
Benephraim, no I don’t know. The gadlus of Rav Yonasan Steif ztz’l was that he knew when not be machmir.November 6, 2022 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #2136046Yabia OmerParticipant
Do you have data to back that up? That no one follows the Rambam?November 6, 2022 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2136051
Yabia, it’s been discussed ad nauseum on here – you won’t find a single posek representative of a stream of yiddishkeit (i.e., chasam sofer, gaon, rav hirsch, rav akiva eiger, ben ish chai, mishnah berurah…) Who advocates following that rambam. I’m sure there are obscure teshuva seforim which you could dig up and cite, but the baalei mesorah do NOT go with it, without exception.November 6, 2022 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2136053
Rav Hirsch actually explains kiddushin 29b according to the ran, which explains “ha lan ve’ha lahu” that in bavel you should get married first and then devote yourself to learning Torah, because the women were strong and able to support their husbands in learning. In eretz yisroel they were weaker and unable to, so it was better to devote years to learning first and then get married, when the man will have to support. Not all rishonim understood the gemara that way, but rav hirsch goes with it.November 6, 2022 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #2136056
I simply responded to your claim of a mesorah that destroys the traditional y/z partnership. And, again, I understand the social need you mention, but it doesn’t change the ideal. Whatever you read in Mishna berurah, it’s author ran a store and traveled around selling his books, after personally marking up each copy after he checked that it was bound correctly. It is not that difficult to support yourself in our times, those who are able to should take this chumra upon themselves. Now we are back on topicNovember 7, 2022 7:38 am at 7:38 am #2136062mentsch1Participant
Back on topic
At least one example of not only not being better, but a person can get punished for being machmir
When it’s מחזי כיהוראNovember 7, 2022 9:44 am at 9:44 am #2136122
We have to be careful that the chumrah, being overdone, should not lead to a kulah. The Chacham Tzvi wanted to be matir kitniyos as it requires to make more matzos and there is the danger of not being able to watch out for chametz. The Chayai Adam wanted to asser potatoes, so he was told that he is taking away the chayai adam. It says לא תוסיפו ולא תגרעו ממנו the addition brings to a diminution. Adam Harishon by adding not to touch ended up in eating from the eiz hadaas. The mashel is to the individual who borrowed some silver utensils. When paying back, he gave back an additional piece saying it gave birth. Later, he wanted to borrow an expensive candelabra. The lender thought, why not I will receive a smaller one back. The end was that the borrower never returned it by saying, it died. So when asked, how can it die? He said if you believe it gave birth, you also have to believe it died.November 7, 2022 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2136124
“Is the strict opinion always the better opinion? Is being Meikil inherently worse?”
No, of course not, and there are numerous examples that can be brought where almost everyone here agrees. Based on the thread title, however, you seem to want a divisive discussion. So which halachos were you thinking of? AAQ has already filled in your gap with his favorite.November 7, 2022 10:40 am at 10:40 am #2136129
“My mesorah, going back to Rambam, says that Y will only get schar if hashgaha made him unable to earn his own living. Otherwise, the whole reward goes to Z. Otherwise, it is not logical to spuriously decide that one does not want to support himself.”
If you want to invent a polemical “mesorah”, that’s your business, but maybe leave the Rambam out of it.November 7, 2022 11:10 am at 11:10 am #2136141
“At this point, he wonders – based on reading YWN – whether he is “frum” enough and wonders whether he needs to spend an extra 30 minutes of drive to pick up chalav isroel yogurt and milk, so that he will either learn less, has one less surgery, or disregard either the wife or one of the kids. What would be your advice?”
My advice would be, if a person truly believes that his derech is correct and he is following it to the best of his ability, then why wouldn’t he have enough confidence in his derech that a CR thread would rattle him so much? I seriously doubt your hypothetical accomplished and busy man would actually be rattled by anything on the CR. But if he is, he should assess why. Did he read something he never heard or considered before, and is concerned he’s missing something halachically? He should look into it and perhaps ask a shaila of a rav who knows him well. Is he really so sure that his chosen derech is correct? That’s the most likely reason he’d get rattled and think about making irrational changes to his life (the yetzer hara works on everything). But if he is indeed sure and still gets rattled, maybe he lacks the confidence or assertiveness to be able to deal with others who have different ideas in a healthy way?November 7, 2022 11:19 am at 11:19 am #2136151🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
” wonders whether he needs to spend an extra 30 minutes of drive to pick up chalav isroel yogurt and milk, so that he will either learn less, has one less surgery, or disregard either the wife or one of the kids.”
right. that 30 minute drive for cholov yisroel will cause one less surgery.
Please – take whatever was you dumbest comment until now, and replace it with this one.November 7, 2022 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #2136288dovrosenbaumParticipant
Sometimes being meikil is necessary for a variety of reasons or another.
If a person has a poor attention span, some ADD, or dyslexia, for instance, they should probably not attempt to daven everything in the siddur; for such a person, shacharis consisting of brachos, baruch sheamar, ashrei, yishtabach, krias shema w/brachos before and after, amidah, ashrei, uva letzion, shir shel yom and aleinu is enough. If a person is prone to sweating and suffers body acne, perhaps wearing wool tallis katan isn’t advisable. Sometimes people have to do the best they can to keep halacha given the limitations of health, disability, economics, family dynamics, etc.November 7, 2022 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #2136293
Dov, that davening regimen is in extreme circumstances and definitely not meant to be permanent. You need to be cautious with that. Also, pesukeo dizimra isn’t a “chumra”November 7, 2022 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #2136298
Syag > right. that 30 minute drive for cholov yisroel will cause one less surgery.
I am not sure why this is farfetched. There are many people whose life is filled with responsibilities and mitzvos. Adding one more would require subtracting another one.November 7, 2022 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #2136299
Dov, a good example. I once had a chance to ask R Gans @ Mattesdorf about how much effort I should do to increase learning, and he responded, unexpectedly – m’at m’at…November 7, 2022 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2136313
That’s not unexpected at all – increasing too much too fast is just k’balo kach palto…easy in, easy outNovember 7, 2022 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #2136315
Avram,a good point that this person is not likely to be rattled, or even reading this. The reason I suggested that he might have second thoughts is because he respects Torah and he is reading here many people who claim to know Torah well and they are so adamant in their worship of chumros. So, he gets cognitive dissonance.November 7, 2022 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #2136316
Avira > That’s not unexpected at all – increasing too much too fast is just k’balo kach palto
right, but I thought I was already taking this into account and included that in the question, but the Rav suggested slowing down even further.November 7, 2022 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2136317
How about people being meikel in learning when they are involved in helping klal, or meikel in raising family when they are involved in learning.
Generally, if you are trying to achieve an extreme result in certain area, you need to sacrifice a lot in others. So, the question in advance is whether you are the person to be meikel in something, especially if it is at smoeone else’s expense. for example, at some point R Ovadia Yosef’s wife was feeding the baby under the table so that he does not interrupt his learning in their room. I am pretty sure if I tried to emulate the Chacham in this, I would be learning outdoors.November 8, 2022 3:03 am at 3:03 am #2136356
there is a famous line in yiddishkeit called “oisek bmitzvah, potur min hamitzvah”…. When a person is busy occupied with a mitzvah he is free from doing other mitzvos but that doesn’t give him a right to throw away the entire Torah cause now currently he’s busy doing a mitzvah……November 8, 2022 3:10 am at 3:10 am #2136363🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Syag > right. that 30 minute drive for cholov yisroel will cause one less surgery.
I am not sure why this is farfetched. There are many people whose life is filled with responsibilities and mitzvos. Adding one more would require subtracting another one.
Oh, for sure! I had to drop out of college and put a hold on having kids cuz the vitamins I used were a 45 minute drive away. It was just awful.
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