Melech HaMashiach

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  • #2165199
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Rambam, Hilchot Melachim, Chapter 4, paragraph 8:
    The King Messiah will take a one 13th part [7.69%] of the all lands that Israel conquers, for himself, and for his descendants forever.

    Rambam, commentary on Mishnah Sanhedrin, chapter 10:
    When the Mashiach dies, his son will rule after him, and his grandson will rule after that.

    NOTE: This quote is before and above the paragraph labeled HaYesod HaRishon.
    In my edition, it is on page 247, on the 16th and 17th lines of that page.

    Given the two quotes shown above, it is obvious that the Melech HaMashiach cannot be a childless man. Over the past 2,000 years, every man who claimed to be the Melech HaMashiach was childless, or only had a daughter, or only had sons who died before he did. None of them had a son and a grandson after him, as described by Rambam.

    Please save these quotes to your computer, for future reference.

    #2165273
    1a2b3c
    Participant

    Presumably the followers would claim that their Moshiach will father children afterwards – or perhaps that the talmidim can be called children?

    #2165329

    I鈥檓 playing devil鈥檚 advocate here I don鈥檛 believe any of them are moshiach

    The Gemara says (a famous Shmuely unger song) 讻诇 讛诪诇诪讚 讗转 讘谉 讞讘讬专讜 讻讗讬诇讜 讛讬讜讜诇讚讜

    If that鈥檚 the case his children can be his 转诇诪讬讚讬诐

    #2165339
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The son in law might be considered a son as in rabonus.

    #2165340
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Rashi says that the grandchildren call the grandfather father, so a grandson from a daughter might be like a son .

    #2165353
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    I would like to point out that most commentaries argue with the Rambam’s opinion here, and in very sharp ways.

    This all follows his opinion that 转讻诇讬转 讛砖讻专 is a spiritual world and Moshiach will not live forever.

    Most disagree with that approach.
    See the Raavad.
    The Ramban (讬讙讝讜专 讛专讘 讝”诇 诪讬转讛 注诇 讛诪砖讬讞 讜注诇 讚讜专讜)
    Avodas Hakodesh: 讛专诪讘”诐 讝”诇 砖驻讟 诪砖驻讟 诪讜讜转 注诇 讘谞讬 转讞讬讬转 讛诪转讬诐 讜注诇 讛诪砖讬讞 讜讚讜专讜
    And many others.

    Additionally, when Moshiach comes, all 诪讜诪讬诐 and sicknesses will be healed (as ruled by the Rambam as well, 讛诇讻讜转 转砖讜讘讛 驻”讟), so I doubt anyone will still be childless. (See also Shabbos 30b)

    Irregardless, throughout the signs that the Rambam gives to identify someone as Melech haMoshiach (讛诇讻讜转 诪诇讻讬诐 驻讬”讗 讛”讚), he makes no mention of having children.

    #2165358
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    1A2B3C SAID:

    << Presumably the followers would claim that their Moshiach will father children afterwards >>

    MY RESPONSE:

    What do you mean by 鈥渁fterwards鈥?

    If you mean 鈥渁fter death鈥, then any Jew can claim to be the Melech HaMashiach, and when people ask why he has not fulfilled the requirements to be the Melech HaMashiach, he can just claim that he will fulfill the requirements after he returns from death.

    Additionally, the concept of the Melech HaMashiach coming from the dead is NEVER mentioned by Rambam (or any other Rishon).

    =====================================
    1A2B3C SAID:

    << perhaps that the talmidim can be called children >>

    MY RESPONSE:

    Torah law requires that the Melech HaMashiach be a direct descendant of David HaMelech AND Shlomoh HaMelech. This eliminates 99.99% of randomly-selected talmidim.

    Also, if Rambam would have meant talmidim, then he would have written talmidim.

    #2165361
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    “Please save these quotes to your computer, for future reference.”

    I respectfully disagree.

    This is too important to just put on my hard drive. It should be reposted weekly.

    And besides, I have no more storage space with all the useful quotes that I’ve noticed recently.

    #2165395
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Reb Yakov Kaminitsky once said about this subject, those who know don’t say and those who say don’t know.

    #2165415
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    With all respect to those who claim to know, the reality is that we really don’t know who knows, and that the Ebeshter will reveal his decision in his own time and way w/o having to obtain prior approval from the CR naviim. Even speculation by chazal is still speculation.

    #2165429
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Square,

    “Any Jew can claim to be Melech HaMoshiach”

    There are certain qualifications listed in the Rambam that someone must have in order to be considered Moshiach even before starting the actual Geulah. There are other signs he must show to prove that he is definitely Moshiach and the Geulah has begun. Having a son is not listed among either list.

    #2165430
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Never mind! Never mind! I just found out that Yoshke did not base any of his claims on the Rambam. Don’t go clearing up hardware space just for this.

    #2165488

    Square root,

    Are you talking about moshiach鈥檚 descendants or his yichus to Dovid and Shlomo?

    #2165640
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Menachem Shmei:

    You took my words out-of-context, COMPLETELY out-of-context; so much so that you completely reversed the meaning of what I intended to say. PLEASE STOP! Thank you.

    =====================================
    coffee addict:

    The true mashiach will be a King of Israel, like David and Shlomoh.
    That is why he is called the Melech HaMashiach
    The Melech HaMashiach must be a direct descendant of both David and Shlomoh.

    Rambam [shown above] teaches that the Melech HaMashiach will have a son who will be King of Israel, and the son of the Melech HaMashiach will also have a son who will also be King of Israel [who will be the grandson of the Melech HaMashiach].

    Therefore, no childless man can be the Melech HaMashiach.

    Rambam [shown above] teaches that the Melech HaMashiach will have descendants who inherit land from him. Therefore, no childless man can be the Melech HaMashiach.

    =====================================
    Additionally, if we open our Tanach to Yechezkel, chapter 46, verse 16, we see a prince who has sons who inherit from him.

    The Metsudath David commentary on Yechezkel, chapter 44, verse 3 and chapter 45, verse 7 identifies the prince as the Melech HaMashiach.

    Since the Metsudath David interprets these verses as referring to a Melech HaMashiach who has sons who inherit from him, no childless man can be the Melech HaMashiach.

    #2165773
    Happy new year
    Participant

    Yes, SQUARE_ROOT is right. The Torah calls the Melech a Nasi. “Asher nasi Yechta…..”. It’s clear in Yechezkel (and Yeshaya) that Moshiach will have children. Yechezkel even says (46:16) that his inheritance would go to his sons – and we know according to the Torah, that that means he will die.

    And yes, if the Beis din paskens misah on them – so be it. Din Torah is Din Torh

    #2165793
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Square,

    Sorry, wasn’t intentional

    #2165815
    yechiell
    Participant

    I hate to say this, and even bring it up. But, if the Moshiach didn’t come during the Shoah, when he should have come, who are we to say anything about him – who he is, when he will come, why didn’t he come, does he have children etc.
    the best we should say, as when we answer why do bad things happen to good people : WE DON’T KNOW ! and leave it at that. period.

    #2165843
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    “he can just claim that he will fulfill the requirements after death.”

    Exactly! Why would you think otherwise? Now that Spinoza has died and having been faced with the truth, of course he is waiting for his chance to return to life. He will then to a complete teshuva, marry and have many sons. Obviously, he is the leading candidate for being mashiach. Many, many, great talmeidi chachamim wrote about spinoza. None of them ever said that he will not be moshiach. And if your one of those types that ignores all the sources in favor of the Rambam, the Rambam doesn’t explicitly exclude those who are resuscitated from among the dead. The Rambam couldn’t explicitly say that it would be someone who comes back after death, because Spinoza wasn’t born yet. And there was the possibility of him becoming mashiach before he even died.

    #2168090
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Spinoza – Mashiach ???
    He was an apikores as far as I remember

    #2168168

    Yankel,

    I think you misunderstood N0mesorah

    #2168341
    GeulahTime
    Participant

    We will have all the answers soon.

    #2169675
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Forget it! I completely recant. It has recently become obvious to me that the Melech Hamashiach must be the unimpeachable Chananya Weissman. It then follows that there is no room for questions, debate, or presumption.

    #2170392

    (It’s just “regardless” – “irregardless” isn’t an actual word.)

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