February 8, 2012 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #868384Feif UnParticipant
bpt: Do you really think every non-Jew is a drunkard, and all Jews are perfect people? It’s a nice dream, but it’s time to wake up now.February 8, 2012 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #868385
*trust* vs. *forcing*
So now she sees greener pastures? Sorry. She knew from the get-go what her share of the partnership involved. Had she gotten married in the 1800s, you could say she was misled.February 8, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #868386
Feif: I’m going to press you on this. I’d like you to defend the torah’s unequal treatment of women.
I’d like you to recognize that secular people consider you a bigot as well as us, and see little difference between us.February 8, 2012 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #868387
PBA: If I may?
I believe the concept of “tolerance” applies here. We may be backward, but so what as long as we don’t make anyone else act backward?
It’s like MSseeker elequently said. If I want to be “oppressed” (in your eyes), what right do you have to say that I can’t?
I have a very good Dimyon to which any liberal would agree, but can’t post it here. I can’t even post a hint (I did, but edited it out. Too Risque).
I don’t believe in forcing anyone to follow Halacha (B’zman Hazeh). What I do believe is showing why what we do is correct, and having the person give up of themselves so that they may follow.
In this specific example, I have no problem with her leaving. The fact that we allow her to leave (as opposed to other religions, where she would have been an “honor killing”) shows that we are tolerant.February 8, 2012 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #868388
No body cares what you do on buses in your own neighborhoods or were your wife walks.
The people of New Square (and Meah Shearim etc.) go to great lengths to seperate themselves from the society at large. They put signs outside their neghborhoods and make sure evreyone knows what their standards are. If you choose to go into their neighborhoods and do things they specicfly do not want happening there you will get harrassed. There is nothing to get all self rightous about,it is not something specific to religious groups either.
If a neturei Kartanick walked into were you Daven wearing a Palistinian flag would he get harassed? Probably.
If you walk around in the Arab neghborhoods in the west bank wearing an isreali flag will you get harrassed? Probably.
There is nothing to get all self rightous aboutFebruary 8, 2012 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #868389chocandpatienceMember
soliek: yes they do
i was actually considering posting a ‘like’ since it was well expressed and reflect my thoughts but this thread moved so fast that i thought i wouldn’t bother.
Popa: ‘like’ to your posts .February 8, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #868390
” I get the feeling that people dont read my posts “
I do! (even though, I’m still smarting from the petch I got from you on the YIBE tangle we had a while back)
But I must ask you: Why would you go to a book signing from a person like that? Presumably, you look like a frum Jew. Why lend credence to a scene like that with your presence?February 8, 2012 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #868391
There was an article in the NY Times, called “Orthodox Paradox” by a certain Noah Feldman, who is a formerly MO, Harvard Law Professor (and whom I happen to know personally, for whatever reasons). Google the article. It is very relevant here.
He points out that although the Modern Orthodox attempt to accept modern culture and also the torah, there are irreconcilable differences. For example, he brings the idea that we only save a goy on shabbos because of darchei shalom.
And he is correct. There are irreconcilable differences between halacha and modern Western values. You need to choose one or the other. He criticizes his teachers at the MO Maimonides day school in Boston for choosing the torah. I commend them.
Thanks for the support, supporters.
GAW: I agree with your post. I don’t like forcing people anymore. When moshiach comes, we’ll do that again. And I do think the article does show out tolerance, in that regard and in others.February 8, 2012 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #868392
“every non-Jew is a drunkard, and all Jews are perfect people”
Hardly. But the percentages are very much in our favor, and the odds of her running into real anti-semetism with her new found partner is very much real, once the booze starts flowing (which is every sporting event, every social event)
Her words,if I heard correctly: Irish Catholic. In the pre-1970s BP, we had them for neighbors. And now thru my line of work, I once again deal with them. True, its not fair to generalize, but odds are, if you or I get into a shouting match with our spouse, it wil not end up with someone getting a black eye.
Can you say that about our pals in the pub?
Take the time to look at her photo, and you tell me where you see her in 5 years. Maybe its time for YOU to wake up.February 8, 2012 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #868393
Yes, but the harrassment in any of those examples (assuming they are on public property) is wrong.February 8, 2012 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #868394
The people of New Square and Kiryat Joel have no LEGAL right to tell anyone to OBEY their standards.
If a woman wishes to go into the middle of Kiryat Joel wearing a tank top and shorts there is nothing they can do.
They can ASK people to respect, but nobody is required to listen.
There are different laws appying to Mear Sharim and Bnei Brak and I dont know the exact laws of that country so I wont comment on themFebruary 8, 2012 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #868395
Z and Gavra,
Right and you also have the right to walk into a black neighborhood wearing a klu klux klan outfit and scream anti black statements (provided that you do not call for violence) but if you get a beating don’t get all self rightous or come crying to anyoneFebruary 8, 2012 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #868396
Z and Gavra,
Right and you also have the right to walk into a black neighborhood wearing a klu klux klan outfit and scream anti black statements (provided that you do not call for violence) but if you get a beating don’t get all self rightous or come crying to anyone
I guess you have seen “Die Hard with a Vengeance”? 🙂
Two wrongs don’t make a right.February 8, 2012 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #868397mikehall12382Member
I DO NOT WANT to be out on the streets at night.
I WANT to ride in the back of the bus.
When there are guests over, I WANT TO eat in the kitchen instead of at the table with my family.
I DO NOT WANT to drive
If your fine with it, then who are we to argue…..
But, non of the above have anything to do with Halacha…They are chumras and the two should not be confused.February 8, 2012 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #868398
If you walk into harlem wearing a white sheet shouting FROM THE STREET general racial slurs (Not aimed at a particular individual) and you are beat up, the perps are legally responsible for any damage they incur.
Now if you go to harlem, walk up someone step wearing a white robe and yell racial slurs at the owner of the house by name and then you get beat up, then it is your fault.February 8, 2012 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #868399
This has been legally fought
If a woman walks past a construction site wearing stilletoes, mini skirt and tank top and the construction workers act innapropriately
She has every right to persue every legal action against themFebruary 8, 2012 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #868400
Soleik: you have made some good points. My first reaction after reading the article was, I would love to contact her, and tell her things are not the way she paints them but…. So I understand your interest in meeting her but….
The book is being sold for under $15. I’m sure it isn’t going to be a bestseller!February 8, 2012 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #868401
Getting back to the person this thread is about, she actually has a website. What I’d like to do is invite her for a Shabbos, and I think everyone here should do so as well. Why? Because then she will see that we’re not all evil, mean hearted people. Of course, I hope she’s gotten the counseling she obviously needs, and yes, she looks 100%+ better in the picture from her “previous” life. I would not criticize her, even if she came dressed inappropriately. I guess I just feel sorry for her, that she equated dysfunctional families with Judaism. If Hashem will accept our teshuva until our last breath, can’t we try to be kindly also? She’s just a mixed up young woman who needs professional help.February 8, 2012 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #868402
Zehavasdad: What satisfaction do you get with walking in chasidic communities dressed in a way that opposes their beliefs? I foind it very UNFORTUNATE, to put it mildly, the sinas chinum amongst our own!! What happened with RESPECTING OTHERS??February 8, 2012 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #868403
Her blog (on the same website – just google her name and you’ll find it – the URL is her name), was gloating over “how the frummies are putting her down”. Let’s surprise her with compassion.February 8, 2012 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #868404
the book is a Best seller
Its in the Top 50 books on AmazonFebruary 8, 2012 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #868405
You Said: “If you walk into harlem wearing a white sheet shouting FROM THE STREET general racial slurs (Not aimed at a particular individual) and you are beat up, the perps are legally responsible for any damage they incur.”
I am not a lawyer so I do not know the laws in theses cases.
In any case there is Law and then there is common sense.
Even the same judge who would sentence a black guy to prison for beating up someone who walked into Harlem wearing a white sheet shouting FROM THE STREET general racial slurs (Not aimed at a particular individual)would admit that the idiot who got beaten up had it coming to him and for sure has nothing to be all self righteous about.
The point is simple:
Don’t bother people if you do not want to fight. If you bother people quit whining when they fight with you.
If they are “right” or “wrong” is not the point.February 8, 2012 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #868406MDGParticipant
I found that she said this in an interview a little while ago:
Because I read books in English I knew I was a bad girl. In a black-and-white world you can either be bad or good. A Jew or not a Jew. There is no in-between. Maybe I didn’t wear red nail polish like a shiksa gentile, but I was peeking into an evil world, living vicariously in it through fictional characters. Break a rule and you’re automatically on God’s blacklist. My grandfather used to say English was an impure language and to employ it in any way would mean employing Satan himself as commander of my heart. There was no doubt that my heart was already thoroughly blackened by the time I was 10 years old.
It seems that she felt from early on she felt that she was not good. If she thought that she was going to gehinom, she might as well enjoy it.February 8, 2012 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #868407msseekerMember
Another positive: Our dropouts come almost exclusively (I said ALMOST) from dysfunctional families.February 8, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #868408OneOfManyParticipant
soliek, I saw and liked what you wrote…just trying to avoid this thread (failed, I guess).February 8, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #868409MaidofCHParticipant
Apparently the drop-outs are different today than they were 100-200 years ago.
During the time of the Haskala, Jews left the ghettos and shtetls to become doctors, lawyers, artists, scientists, etc. While it was sad to see so many leave the religion, at least it was for something substantive, and the secularized Jews had an intellectuality about them.
Fast forward to 2012 C.E. Here is a woman who is basically a neb case — confused, stunted, amoral, and possibly crazy, like her father — although she now sees herself as a “with-it” type who hangs out in bars and nightclubs. Judging from the interview (I won’t read the book), she seems to have the profundity of a carp. (She also looked prettier in the frum photo; tznius aside, she was kind of homely in the party dress.)
She sadly reflects the OTD types I meet nowadays. They leave because they have nothing going for them, period, in their brains or in their lives. They don’t really fit in either world, Jewish or secular, since they lack the talent or the focus to make it.
Maybe Satmar isn’t for her, but it sure is a sad reflection on the level education she might have received at home and at school.February 9, 2012 2:20 am at 2:20 am #868410
its just frustrating when people reject a perfectly reasonable middle ground in favour of inflammatory rhetoric and blind indictments of jews and judaism…
to sum it up nicely, if you don’t like something, if you think that society is in need of change, then lead by example. “Be the change you want to see in the world.” (~Mahatma Ghandi)February 9, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #868411Medium Size ShadchanMember
MaidofCH, what you wrote is so beautifully written, Id love to post it on my Facebook page, but that would give my identity away.
Oh well. ;(February 9, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #868412Avi KParticipant
Read “Off the Derech” by Faranak Margolese. It seems that most people who leave do so because of negative role-models and a minority because they simply found out that here is another way of life (I personaly once met someone like that). The key to the teshuva movement, on the other hand, is showing people that Judaism has something for every type.
BTW, regarding the controversy on wives and guests the Chafetz Chaim once invited Rav Meir Shapiro for Shabbat. When Rav Shapiro asked if the rebbetzin sat atthe table the Chafetz Chaim said “I gave her a ketuba so I am obligated to her – to you I am not obligated”. Rav Shapiro regretted the missed oppportunity for the rest of his life.February 9, 2012 4:37 am at 4:37 am #868413GoLearnTorahParticipant
How would you respond to a goy who asks you if all the stuff she says in this book is true about Jewish life?February 9, 2012 4:46 am at 4:46 am #868414
How would you respond to a goy who asks you if all the stuff she says in this book is true about Jewish life?
What are you referring to. All the stuff I saw in the article didn’t seem to bad.February 9, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #868415Medium Size ShadchanMember
GoLearnTorah, Id say- Mostly anyone who has abandoned any ship, become part of an opposing movement who want to point out and often exaggerate weaknesses and warts. This becomes their raison d’etre.February 9, 2012 8:38 am at 8:38 am #868417tahiniMember
It is understandable that people do not always understand the difference between the way they are being raised and what actually is the norm for their frum communities.
For Jews the family is often an extension of Torah, and the tragedy is when someone is upset or abused at home they then abandon Torah because they can not differentiate between their family and community and Torah values. For those who have been abused or scarred it is often impossible to take their childhood experiences out of their perception of religious observance. She will have her 15 minutes of fame and go away, I hope her son has some stability and warmth in his life if at all possible.February 9, 2012 9:32 am at 9:32 am #868418chocandpatienceMember
mods: the link in the OP should be removedFebruary 9, 2012 9:44 am at 9:44 am #868419wanderingchanaParticipant
“Another positive: Our dropouts come almost exclusively (I said ALMOST) from dysfunctional families.”
How is there anything positive about that? Doesn’t anyone feel any rachmonus for her at all?
I think there’s a lot of truth to the things that have been posted here about her upbringing, but what good will it do? If she comes here and reads this stuff, it’s just going to validate her decision to go off the derech in her mind.
I am greatly saddened that the tone here is ‘how it reflects on us’ rather than what a tragedy it is that she felt driven out of her own community. She didn’t get the nuturing she needed growing up, and she sure isn’t getting it now. She’s still a Yid, and she has a 5-year-old who is being influenced by her. I do hope it’s true that he’s in a MO school, and I hope that he is being treated with more compassion there than his mother received growing up.February 9, 2012 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #868420
I would tell them that it’s the extremely biased viewpoint of a woman with serious emotional issues, who came from a dysfunctional family. That she has has as narrow a viewpoint as those she accuses of being that way. The world is not black and white.February 9, 2012 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #868421yissachordovMember
Can someone explain me these questions:
1) How are we comparing a womans chiyuv d’orayso of going to a mikvah with some chumros accepted by a minority of the klal? Just because I follow halachah doesn’t mean I have to justify every chumrah that pops up.
2) How do people ‘inside’ the various chassidic sects post on these message boards? By definition aren’t they already ‘outsiders’ by having access to internet?February 9, 2012 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #868422
Yisochor dov: You’re missing the point.February 9, 2012 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #868423
By the way, how many of you who read the article were offended by it, and how many of you who read it pitied her?
I pitied her. I felt sorry for her. She obviously had a rough life, and from the profile she presents, she was almost certainly molested at some point. she was given the opportunity to live a meaningful life–the life of a frum jew (lets leave chassidus out of this) and she unfortunately never saw the positive side of judaism. So she went off the derech.
Everyone here blasting her, and getting defensive, knows someone like her. What’s unfortunate is not the fact that she isn’t frum, but the fact that her childhood was awful. Her lack of religion would be more tragic if she ever had a good reason to be religious, but she didn’t. She obviously never understood or saw the beauty in a shabbos, the jubilation of a purim, the peace of a pesach, or the togetherness of a succos. She must never have heard the beauty of zemiros, felt that satisfaction in hearing a good vertel, or been enraptured by a very good teacher.
I say this because I work with people like this every day; I AM someone like her. I know what it feels like when life stinks and you feel like you’re living a lie. Were it not for one rebbi I had, I’m not sure I’d be frum today. And none of you would be able to judge me because none of you would understand what that feels like. But I do understand her, and I understand that I could never be angry at her or with what she says or does. I can only love her as a fellow jew and hope that one day she DOES see the beauty in judaism, and that one day she DOES decide to rejoin our fold.February 9, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #868424
I find it amazing that everyone is putting the hate and saying she is mentally unstable.
There is things that you enjoy, but is it possible others can hate or feel humiliated by it?
Can she feel humiliated by the Zip Lock bag. from what Ive read this was not conveyed to her properly and what many here might consider a beautiful thing, other dont feel that way.
You cant control feelings.February 9, 2012 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #868425yungerman1Participant
soliek- I “like” your post.February 9, 2012 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #868426MiddlePathParticipant
soliek, I’m completely with you. I not only pity her, but I understand her as well. And that’s because I can relate a little to what she went through growing up, just like you can. Thankfully, I had a few role models and a mother who showed me the beauty of Judaism. But I easily could have turned out just like this woman.
To anyone that is talking badly about her, you are just doing exactly the thing that caused her to leave Judaism. She saw it as oppressive, negative, and condemning, and talking badly about her is doing exactly that.
I hope she eventually finds an area of Judaism where she can have a positive experience.February 9, 2012 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #868427
soliek +2February 9, 2012 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #868428yissachordovMember
Popa, 2 things.
1)Please explain how I missed the point. Don’t try to justify stupid (yes, stupid) chumros that never existed in yiddishkeit by comparing it to other ‘weird’ halachos that are issurai d’orayso. We follow mitzvos because that is what hashem told us to do. No questions asked. So some mitzvos may seem funny or outdated but we do them anyway. That doesn’t mean you can extrapolate that to cover every idea that pops into your head. If it was so important for women to walk on separate sides of the street, I think the tannaim and amoraim would have covered the issue.
2) I don’t know if you are trying to be funny with your subtitle (mildly retarded) but it is extremely offensive to parents and family members with retarded children.February 9, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #868429
1. You are still missing the point. Nobody is trying to say that we have to do any chumros just because there are similar halachos. We are saying that the same way we understand that the purpose of halachos which affect women is not to degrade them, we understand that the purpose of chumros which affect women is not to degrade them.
2. Your examples are not even true. You could just as easily ask: If nidda was really always supposed to be concerned for zava gedolah, why didn’t the tannaim or the neviim institute it? And that is actual halacha in the gemara.
3. Users do not make the subtitles.February 9, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #868430
MiddlePath: yep. there comes a point where you have to ask yourself which you care more about: your image, or fellow jews. she makes us look bad, yes, but whats the point in vilifying her? i wish she were frum, i wish she could see the beauty in judaism, why would i vilify her?
i work with kids like this every night and the only way to help them is to love them unconditionally, no matter what they have done, and no matter how stupid their mistakes. you love them unconditionally, help them when they ask for it, lead by example, and hope that one day they appreciate it. your image is irrelevant, your only concern is their well-being.February 9, 2012 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #868431
Soleik: Once again your post was EXCELLENT! The only point I will differ with you is this: I truly feel very bad for her, her son and her ex husband.The thing that bothers me about her, is she didn’t need to write this book against a chasidishe lifestyle. As a married woman, I do take offense to the way she painted that role, ALL THAT IS NOT TRUE!!
She doesn’t state all her feelings as such, she makes you( or tries to)
think this is the way it is for all.IT IS NOT, some of us , believe in what we are doing totally without any force!! Some of us EVEN ENJOY our roles!It is unfortunate that she was never given the tools to deal with all her feelings properly.February 9, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #868432
Sorry, no pity for someone who is trying to make a quick buck off of her most probably exaggerated stories. If someone told me such stories personally to explain why he is OTD, I might understand so long as he is not telling me to join him. I also would not listen to an oisvorf who makes himself out to be a hero or better than me because he is OTD whereas I returned after bad experiences.
Most OTD who make a big deal out of it are baalei gayva vetayva who think that Yiddishkeit will not survive without them and their friends. They also think they found something better, when they actually have nothing but a whole bunch of new tsuris.
This one is like the Kook Klutz Kartel nutters – just out to shock people, and best ignored.February 9, 2012 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #868433msseekerMember
“Another positive: Our dropouts come almost exclusively (I said ALMOST) from dysfunctional families.”
How is there anything positive about that? Doesn’t anyone feel any rachmonus for her at all?
My heart goes out for this confused girl and even more for her dysfunctional family; every lost soul is a terrible tragedy. But think how much worse it would be if she came from a stable family. This is “man bites dog” news, because our OTD rate is not only the lowest on the Orthodox spectrum, but our dropouts are mostly (again, I said MOSTLY) confused, abused, neglected kids, PLUS dumb, untalented ne’er-do-wells. Where are her siblings? Probably smart enough to survive their unfortunate ordeals. I haven’t heard of a single successful chassidic dropout. The most normal ones do blue-collar work, and many do teshuva. Conclusion: With very, very few exceptions, normal chassidishe kids who grow up in normal homes stay on the straight and narrow BH. We must be doing something right.February 9, 2012 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #868434
ugh…id give you an example of what it means to love unconditionally despite a person’s incredibly stupid mistake…but sadly that would be a breach of someone’s privacy so i cant…but if you understand where all the anger comes from, where the desire to bash orthodoxy comes from…youll pity not hate.
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