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During WWII, my father-in-laws’ generation was drafted and served in the army and was away for 3 or more years. He was fortunate in regards to Shabbos and kashrus because he was an airplane mechanic in the Army Air Force and was stationed in England. Friends assigned to infantry units had a tougher time.
I am curious as to how Coffee Romm men of draftable age ( and their mothers and fathers ) would react if , chas v’sholom, and a WWII-like scenario arose that required the resumpton of a universal draft ( in WWII there were noexemptins for learning )and they received a draft notice
It would be simillar to thr vietnam war where a very very large percentage took an exemption to study in a seminary.
It would be simillar to thr vietnam war where a very very large percentage took an exemption to study in a seminary.
The OP’s point pre-supposed that there would be no exemption for learning.
My guess would be that a certain percentage would become draft dodgers, a small percentage would willing go to jail, a good number would try (unsuccessfully) to become COs and the vast majority would end up serving if called.
The Wolf
What’s a CO?
I seriously doubt the vast majority would serve. Many people will suddenly remember their cholesterol level is way too high (after a few pills) and the like — as was successfully done during the Vietnam draft. Ah Yid git zich an eitza.
What’s a CO?
Conscientious objector.
[who has] claimed the right to refuse to perform military service” on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, or religion.
Mind you, being a CO doesn’t get you off the hook. You may be required to perform civilian service instead of miliatry service. In addition, you can’t just claim to be a CO — as you can imagine, it’s a tough sell to a draft board in time of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector#United_States
The Wolf
Many people will suddenly remember their cholesterol level is way too high
And, I guarantee you, the draft boards will catch on to that VERY quickly.
The Wolf
Further reading on CO:
To claim status, you have to be against war in any form (a tough sell on religious grounds for a person who belongs to a religion with the concept of milchemes mitzvah).
The Wolf
It worked for my father when he went to the draft board during the Vietnam draft. The Draft Board said, Sir, do you realize your cholersterol level is dangerously high? No, he said (after having taken the measures the preceding number of days to make sure it was too high), I had no idea. Well you better see a doctor immediately sir, you are unfit to serve in the Army.
It worked for my father when he went to the draft board during the Vietnam draft.
Perhaps it wasn’t widely used or perhaps your father was one of the first to try it before they might have caught on.
However, if the number of people with high cholesterol suddenly shoots up, you can bet people will begin to come suspicious.
The Wolf
There are various avenues to pursue for this goal. High cholesterol being one of them. When they catch on to one, there are still a dozen others.
My father’s friend got off from the Draft Board by pretending to barely speak English. Ich learning to be ah Rabbi. Ken the Army use ah Rabbi? I vould like to serve the Yiddishe soldiers!
I find it distressing that the predominant reaction on this forum is, “Let’s avoid service, and let someone else take the hit.”
My father and his brother served in the US Army when they were drafted. It was not easy, but when called, they did their duty. And I have friends and neighbors (frum yidden) who did the same. These men served as soldiers, officers, and chaplains. They asked their shailos about Shabbos and kashrus, and they served.
You might think about that the next time you enjoy the wealth of freedom the United States provides. Yes, it’s not a perfect country (there is no perfect country); yes, the current Administration’s policy on Israel is confounding.
But it is more confounding to confront an attitude of, “I will suck the freedom and benefits of this land, and let someone else stand to defend it while I cower behind any manner of excuse and subterfuge I can conjure so that someone else takes a bullet while I relax with my freedom.”
Actually, it borders on abhorrent. There is no compulsory draft in the US, so no one is compelled to serve. But if circumstances warrant the participation of able bodied men, and one is capable of serving among others so required, then be a man, and do it.
When they catch on to one, there are still a dozen others.
Are there? If so, one wonders how they got anyone to serve at all.
That aside, there is one important point to the situation to consider. The OP posited a WWII type of war. While the war in Viet Nam was bad (in terms of national mobilization), it was a neighborhood brawl compared to WWII.
The Viet Nam conflict saw about 500K US soldiers participate, out of a population of about 200 million. WWII, OTOH, saw a total U.S. mobilization of about 16 million men out of a total population of 130 million (which includes EVERYONE — men, women, children, elderly, etc.). In other words, just about everyone who could fight in WWII was sent to do so.
In a true WWII-style mobilization, the draft boards are going to pull everyone they can. High cholesterol won’t keep you out. In Viet Nam, there were plenty of other people who could serve instead. In WWII, that wasn’t the case. If the US had to suddenly mobilize 16-25 million warriors, you aren’t going to get out with simple cholesterol tricks, pretending not to speak English or other such tricks.
The Wolf
telegrok
Without discussing any single situation, sometimes the teshuva to the shaila is to take whatever measures necessary to avoid being a warrior. Our people did so when drafted to the Czar’s Army — despite being Russian citizens — and for whatever reason it can be the proper approach for an American Torah Yid to receive the teshuva to not become a warrior.
Needless to say, I (and my boys) would avoid the draft if at all possible. True, America has been very good to us, but we (the white collar crowd) can serve our host country better if we do the things we do best, (like office work) and leave the shooting and killing to the beefy amercians who excel at things like that.
Of course, if drafted, I would hope that we would be placed in situations where our office / critical thinking talents would be best utilized.
Should the absolute worst case senario happen, and I / we find ourselves on the front line, I would hope that we could serve with distintion. If push came to shove, and America found itself at war with a hostile country, I / we would do our best to give back to the USA, which has been (thus far) very kind to us. As far as yiddishkeit on the front lines? Not so sure if that would survive the war.
But ask a better question (one that has come up in my office before):
Were the USA to find itself face to face with Israel, what would us flag wavers do then? Or better yet, what would the folks protesting on 2nd avenue do then?
I know my answer (even though my Ivrit is for the birds). Wonder what the guys in the long black coats would do.
Facing Israel would pose the same shaila as say French Jewish soldiers facing hostile Spanish Jewish soldiers on the front line. (Except in regards to Israel it would be more pronounced and obvious that you are facing a fellow Jew.)
Ich learning to be ah Rabbi. Ken the Army use ah Rabbi? I vould like to serve the Yiddishe soldiers!
Such a line might get you enlisted as a 56M — Chaplain’s Assistant. And you might have to work under (and take orders from) a Reform Rabbi. 🙂
The Wolf
I find it distressing that the predominant reaction on this forum is, “Let’s avoid service, and let someone else take the hit.”
While it is disturbing, I have to think (just to be fair) that this is a problem that is not exclusive (or even predominantly indicative of) the Jewish community. Many other groups would also be likely to find ways to avoid serving.
The Bob Fellers of the world (just to use an example) are few — not the majority.
The Wolf
BP Totty, I don’t think it’s a question. A war on Israel is a war on the Jewish people (i.e. not the Jewish State). Our reaction should be obvious to all – including the anti-Zionists. Jews who support enemies of the Jews are nothing more than a lunatic fringe that defies all sense. (Note to Wolf- Scots who serve enemies of “Scots” would also be lunatics).
telegrok – why doesn’t the same apply in the absense of the draft? Why is it any better to say “Let’s avoid service (by not enlisting), and let someone else take the hit”?
Kasha – draft dodging is draft dodging, no matter what method you use.
BP Totty: as always, you raise good and thoughtful points.
Squeak: the difference between a compulsory draft and a volunteer military (as exists in the US today) is that the existence of a volunteer military indicates that the nation’s needs are met by a volunteer forces – stated differently, there is no pressing need that requires the type of call-up as was necessary in WWII – those want to serve, serve, and those who don’t, don’t. But once the gov’t comes calling and says, “We need all able-bodied men between the ages of 20-35” (or whatever range is determined), then in that case it’s a little sketchy to try to wiggle out because while a lot of folks won’t want to serve, they recognize that they must serve.
Another difficult question is implicated by the Wolf’s discussion of WWII and Vietnam – the moral implications of the former were clear; the moral implications of the latter perhaps less so. I do not fault anyone’s interest in self-preservation, and that feeling may be amplified when one’s personal opinion of the war changes.
But, if the government has a standing policy to exempt theological students (of all stripes) from a draft, then I don’t disapprove of any bochur’s use of that exemption. I just find the notion of manufacturing an exemption based on falsified medical (taking pills to alter one’s blood data) or other conditions (feigning ignorance of the language) to be distasteful. If you don’t want to serve, then say so. But let’s be truthful, and not use mistruths to escape service.
I end this note with respect for others who have contributed thoughtfully to this difficult discussion.
“Let’s avoid service, and let someone else take the hit.”
Hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers have given their up lives so that Americans can enjoy their freedom of religion, where laws protect us from discrimination and permit Jews to learn Torah and prey, and observe Shabbos and Yom Tov. It’s not perfect, but no other country in the history of the world has been so accommodating.
So let’s show our admiration and respect for the soldier rather than the scorn which is implied.
Cherry –
Of course we respect the US soldiers. That’s why we provide them with benefits both during and after service.
The question was, should we as frum yidden, join the ranks. My take is, we can be of better service to our host country than crawling thru a minefield. Could I do it? I guess. Could some 250 lb shaygetz from Ohio do statistical analysis? Perhaps.
But he is better at fighting and we are better at thinking. And while thats all well and fine, Uncle Sam thinks I would do just fine with a 100 lb knapsack and a gun in my hand.. just like the 250 lb Ohio guy. So if at all possible, I’d try to avoid getting into uniform. Besides, Mr. Ohio shaygetz has no minyan or kashrus or Shabbos logistics to be concerned with, whereas I do.
I fail to see what someone’s weight, geographic location or religion has to do with his ability to perform white-collar work as opposed to blue-collar work.
Additionally, it should be pointed out that the military has plenty of white-collar jobs as well. Not every person who enters the Army ends up as infantry (11B) and has to crawl through a minefield. The military needs accountants, lawyers and analysts too.
The Wolf
Cherry- there was no scorn in my statement. I was simply pointing out that I feel -whether or not there is a draft- by avoiding service you are asking someone else to serve in your stead. The difference is that in the absense of draft requirements you can do so legally. My point is that if telegrok is interpreting a moral obligation not to let others “take the hit” for you, that should apply with or without a draft.
Wolf- I agree with you that BP Totty made an unfair, bigoted generalization. As far as white collar jobs in the military goes though, you should note that such jobs are white collar plus, so it is not as if one could equally be a civilian accountant/lawyer and a military one.
you should note that such jobs are white collar plus, so it is not as if one could equally be a civilian accountant/lawyer and a military one.
I’m not sure I follow what you mean. Please explain.
Thanks.
The Wolf
Take lawyers as an example. I believe that in the military, a lawyer ranks as an officer. I assume that the position and rank comes with a good deal of training not required by say, a NY law firm, such as weapons training, basic combat, basic officer training, etc. Fair enough?
I only used those “bigoted, generalizations” to illustrate a point. Despite what the draft board says, not all of us are or should be army material. Not that we can’t; just that we can do other things better.
As far as generalizations, I base what I say on how 99% of the erlicher male population that I know could not perform on the battlefield (killing, maiming, slogging thru mud, ect) as well as the goyim of this country. Maybe you know folks from your shul /. school that are more fit, but on the whole, we do thinking work, and they do grunt work. Come to Manhattan any day of the week and tell me how many tzitis and yarmulkas you see at a construction site (unless they’re the architect) and them come to any office building and see how many of us are doing the thinking work.
Its not a quesion of being better; its a matter of being better suited.
BP Totty- You are rationalizing your bigotry. Of course, it may be par for the course in most frum circles to think of “us” as thinking people and “them” as grunt work people, but it is bigotry nonetheless.
Instead of drawing the line between “us” thinkers and “them” muscleheads, you could draw the line between “thinkers” and “muscleheads”. You could argue that highly intelligent people of avergage physique are wasted in combat roles and such roles should only be filled by those with above average physique and unremarkeable intelligence. That wouldn’t go over well with recruiters, but it would be an unbigoted position. And it would be a very different line from the one you describe, despite what you may think.
I then suppose, based on that argument, calling the Jews the “chosen nation” is bigoted.
Count me as another bigot.
Semantics, Squeak. No matter which words you feel more comfortable with, frum yidden are best left out of the military machine, so the people best suited for fighting can do the job right.
Yes, there have been notable exceptions (R’ Mike Tress, for example) from our circle that have served in the army with distiction. But they are the exceptions. For the most part, if you go into uniform, you come back dead or frei (neither of which his high on my to-do list). And given that the Uncle will not really accomodate my wishes, I’d do best to avoid him altogether.
Now, as I stated in an earlier post, should it be necessary for me (g-t zul upheiten) to face off against anyone and join the IDF, I would take any position they needed me for (yes, even “gruntwork”) and claw my way thru heck and back, despite my preference for deskwork. Know why? Becuase I can hardly except John Shaygetz from Ohio to join the IDF and bust heads to defend yiddin. All I’m saying is, let me do what I do best, unless its absoulutly necessary to put me in harms way.
Theres no reason for a yid to go to the army. unless the war is a mitzvah which you wont find in the US, it is assur to go. Count me as another “bigot” who thinks that fighting unnecessary wars is only for goyim.
Take lawyers as an example. I believe that in the military, a lawyer ranks as an officer. I assume that the position and rank comes with a good deal of training not required by say, a NY law firm, such as weapons training, basic combat, basic officer training, etc. Fair enough?
Yes, it’s true that a JAG officer may be required to have some basic training, but, on the whole, they are not likely to find themselves in combat situations. And, in any event, they usually can’t take an active combat role. While a JAG officer is, by definition, an officer, he usually is not a line-officer with authority to command outside his area of expertise.
The Wolf
My remarks above was not addressed to you squeak.
There is no comparison of the Czar’s Army to the American military. Serving in the Czar’s Army meant almost forever with no hope of remaining frum.
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