January 20, 2011 1:33 am at 1:33 am #594331
My mom and I have this conversation all the time and we can never figure this out. in the MO and secular world, many couples wear rings. When they get a divorce you can tell they are because no more ring. But, in the more yeshivish world, they dont wear rings but you can someone is married by women in a sheital and men with a tallis(or even a streimel). Therefore for those that want to get remarried why dont these people take off their sheitals and talleisim(streimels)? Does anyone else wonder the same?January 20, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #732710Brooklyn YentaParticipant
it’s generally accepted practice in frum circles to keep the shaitel on, especially if there are kids. some do get a heter to take it off, but few and far between. don’t know about the men’s side.January 20, 2011 2:40 am at 2:40 am #732711
Once a man starts wearing a talis, he can no longer stop that minhug even if he C”V gets divorced.
Once a woman gets married, she must always cover her hair, even if she C”V gets divorced.January 20, 2011 2:42 am at 2:42 am #732712truth be toldMember
“maalin bakodesh ve’ayn moridon”. A talis is a mitzvah, once done never undone. That’s why if someone usually is the chazan on Rosh Hashona, even when he ages and his voice begins to slow down we have to allow him to continueJanuary 20, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #732713
1.I have children and that would really embarrass them.
2.I am not looking to remarry at this point.
3.My sheitl is nicer anyway.January 20, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #732714
This may come out wrong and I’m sorry before I say it, but I feel bad. I mean like why should they be skipped over in shul(men) because of it or on the streets(women-not a negative way) etc. If a divorcee asks me to set them up how do I know who else is divorced? The way I’m saying this sounds weird I know but do you get it?January 20, 2011 3:35 am at 3:35 am #732715
Yekkes and Sefardim wear a talis from their Bar Mitzvah.January 20, 2011 3:40 am at 3:40 am #732716aries2756Participant
Why SHOULD you be able to pick out a divorcee from a crowd? Their private business should remain private. Only those who really know them should be involved in their shidduchim. How and why should strangers be trusted with their most private stories or even be trusted to bring forth someone who won’t hurt them a second time?
Their Rabbonim, friends, & family are looking out for their best interests and will be happy to listen if someone has a shidduch for a divorcee. There are forums and shidduch groups you can bring your information to and the chain of information will be implemented. No one has to wear a tag, or be singled out in a crowd because they become available again.January 20, 2011 5:38 am at 5:38 am #732717anon for thisParticipant
In any case, I’d guess that many divorced women stop wearing their wedding rings, so even if they continue covering their hair the absence of the ring may be a clue.January 20, 2011 6:02 am at 6:02 am #732718oomisParticipant
Once a woman gets married, she must always cover her hair, even if she C”V gets divorced. “
That is not necessarily the halacha. I am acquainted with many women who were given the heter to take off the head covering after their divorce, so that men would realize they were available again for marriage. They were otherwise very frum women who always wore a shaitel. Some women feel uncomfrotable with the idea, so they would not do it. But it is not for us to judge either way, especially if they have a p’sak that permits it.January 20, 2011 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #732719morah reynaMember
My sister asked a rav (in EY) about wearing a sheitel after being divorced. In America there’s a heter from Rav Moshe that if it’s preventing you from getting Shidduchim, Take it off. In EY it’s not done. It would hinder shidduchim more than help.January 20, 2011 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #732720
OK the way I wrote it came out wrong. I am NOT judging! Let me re-explain. Let’s say your in shul and you are looking over the mechitzah(you are now single again) and are looking to get remarried. You know that there are single men in shul, some divorced some not. Now this new divorcee may want to know about a guy but because since he is wearing a talis she cant inquire about him. That was what I was trying to say. and vice versa for the manJanuary 20, 2011 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #732721
A Talis is a mitzvah; not a status symbol for marriage.January 20, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #732722flowersParticipant
Divorced people usually aren’t interested in people knowing their status. For many, it’s an embarrassment so why would they want to advertising it? Usually more than enough people already know, so it won’t hinder their chances for shidduchim.
If you are looking to set someone up, and want to know who is divorced, simply ask some people.January 20, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #732723yitayningwutParticipant
See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hats from about halfway down, particularly hello99’s comments. Come to think of it, you were there too.January 20, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #732725
“some do get a heter to take it off”
“In America there’s a heter from Rav Moshe that if it’s preventing you from getting Shidduchim, Take it off.”
There is no special heter for a divorced woman to have her hair uncovered.January 20, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #732726
yitay – I mentioned above a talis is worn by some prior to marriage.January 20, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #732727MDGParticipant
The Shulchan Aruch says that women must cover their hair in public (Even HaEzer 21). Rav Moshe had a heter only for shidduchim.
A while ago, I saw a divorced man go without a Talit. When I asked why, I heard because he was divorced. I guess there are different minhagim.January 20, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #732728
MDG: Just because some people do the wrong thing, doesn’t make it into a minhug.January 20, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #732729
Rav Moshe’s heter is only for widows, not divorcees.January 20, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #732730
There may be no reason not to wear a Tallis but there isn’t necessarily any reason to wear it, especially if you wear a Tallis Kotton all day anyway. Do you wear a Tallis all day long? Why not?January 20, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #732732
MDG: Just because some people do the wrong thing, doesn’t make it into a minhug.
Just because you have not heard of a minhag or have a different minhag doesn’t make his actions wrong. Perhaps he asked a sha’aila.
The WolfJanuary 20, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #732733
Rav Moshe’s heter is only for widows, not divorcees.
I’m curious about the distinction. Does he state that there is a distinction (and if so, why?) or was that simply the case before him at the moment?
The WolfJanuary 20, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #732734s2021Member
how come some ppl r so convinced its absolutely wrong for a divorcee to uncover her hair and yet some ppl r getting heters left n right? is it frummer for a divorcee to keep her hair covered?January 20, 2011 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #732735
Does anyone know of any posek who permits uncovered hair for a divorced woman, even with special considerations?January 20, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #732736
“some ppl r getting heters left n right’
No one gets heters.January 20, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #732737cleverjewishpunMember
I’m a divorced man and I refer to my tallis as my failure cape.
I only wear it when I go to shul as I dont feel like answering stupid questions.January 20, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #732738SJSinNYCMember
Cherrybim, I know a few people who have gotten heterim. I don’t feel comfortable posting their rabbonim though, because I did not get the heter.January 20, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #732740be goodParticipant
Thanks ‘aries2756’ – I liked what you wrote about people not wanting their private business on display.
Has it occured to anyone that maybe all singles (divorced, widowed or regular) don’t like having their marital status stamped on their forhead?
Someone I once worked with told me his answer to the standard ‘what are you looking for?’ question when it comes from total (or even less total) strangers. He used to tell them ‘If you know me well enough to redd me a shidduch then you shouldn’t need to ask’.
Or in other words the people suggesting people for these divorced men and women (and for everyone else as well) should be people who know them and their situation.
It does sometimes make it easier if you can just look at them and tell but it’s not the most sensitive of ways to go about it.January 20, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #732741
I know a divorcee who got a Heter some several big Rabbonim but I do not know the precise details of why so I won’t post their names (I will try and find out if this case was special or what the reason was-she was only married for about a year and has no kids).January 20, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #732742
There are certain situations in Jewish life where a Rav or Posek cannot or will not tell an individual that they are forbidden to do an action even though that behavior is in clear violation of halacha. This does not constitute a heter.
So too with our case of the divorcee and her uncovered hair.January 20, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #732743
I think you may be talking about a situation where the rav knows that the violation is occurring but is not asked about it and will not say anything on his own.
I can’t imagine that if the father asked him point blank that he would lie about the actual halacha.
If you ask a rav point blank about removing a sheitel after a divorce, I would take it at face value that it is a hetter.
The WolfJanuary 20, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #732744
There are actual Heterim from as early as Rishonim for adoptive parents to have Yichud with and touch their kids from the line in the Gemara “Kol Ham’gadel Yasom Besoch Baiso” is considered like they actually gave birth to them (I don’t remember the exact final words from the phrase in the Gemara).January 20, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #732745seeallsidesParticipant
I do know a specific case where a rav in flatbush was matir a divorcee to uncover her hair. I don’t feel comfortable publishing his name, as he didn’t paskin for the whole klal yisroel, he paskened for this one person. I believe (and i am not sure) that it was because it was very painful for the divorcee to be reminded of the ex everytime she put on her shaitel.January 20, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #732746
If halacha on an issue is firm and no posek anywhere says it’s muter when asked, then there’s no heter. It’s not like the shaila of birth control where a heter may exist depending on the circumstances. “Silence” by a Rav where he sees that you’re not going to follow anyhow, is not a heter.
The reason I’m being adamant on this issue is that years ago I was seeking a heter on this very issue for a relative and was advised to go to various Rabbonim who “for sure” would give a heter. One person even gave me the name of a well known Rav whose daughter was divorced and she did not cover her hair. I checked it out with all the Rabbonim and guess what, NO HETER.January 20, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #732747SJSinNYCMember
Cherrybim, except that I know women who have gotten heterim!
My sister however, did not get a heter from a very left leaning MO Rabbi.January 20, 2011 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #732748rabbiofberlinParticipant
Just for those who oppose the “taking off” of a sheitel for divorcees. Look at another thread where the question of covering hair is discussed. If you take the view that it is a derabbonon, then clearly, there can be good reasons to allow it, especially if you consider that it is ‘heferu torosecho”.January 20, 2011 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #732749
“Just for those who oppose the “taking off” of a sheitel for divorcees.”
rabbiofberlin, We are not given the option to take any views, derabbonon or otherwise. But, halavai that you can locate a Posek that does not oppose “taking off” of a sheitel for divorcees, because that’s who “those” are.January 20, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #732750
SJSinNYC – “I know women who have gotten heterim”
Please ask the Rav yourself and let us know if the heter is legitimate. I have yet to see a name or I would ask myself.January 20, 2011 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #732751anon for thisParticipant
cherrybim, why does Rav Moshe allow widows, but not divorcees, to uncover their hair?January 21, 2011 12:59 am at 12:59 am #732752rabbiofberlinParticipant
cherrybim- I am not even sure what your response is. The whole thread is full of posters who have said that, in individual cases, Poskim did allow the woman to take her sheitel off. What are you talking about? I have no need to ask but obviously, there were who did ask and were allowed to do it. The “options’ we take are based on solid hetterim.January 21, 2011 3:20 am at 3:20 am #732754
“The whole thread is full of posters who have said that, in individual cases, Poskim did allow the woman to take her sheitel off.”
Name one posek who is matir; he said,she said is not psak din.January 21, 2011 3:30 am at 3:30 am #732755oomisParticipant
One woman I know who uncovered her hair with a heter from her rov, was a divorcee looking to remarry. She now IS remarried.January 26, 2011 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #732756nishtpushetMember
Here is a question, and I wonder if there is anyone out there that does this. Unfortunately, there are many divorced “singles” out there that are having a very hard time even finding a date since there does not seem to be a shadchan that is designated to helping them find shidduchim. Does anyone know of a shadchan in the NY area that specializes in helping divorced individuals find shidduchim? Thanks.January 26, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #732757
my friend’s second marriage was arranged by Rabbi and Mrs.Siegal from Flatbush.Apparently,they have made many shidduchim.
Rabbi and Mrs.Danese also deal with “situation” shidduchim.January 26, 2011 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #732758
Oh,also Rabbi and Mrs.Gartenhaus from Boro Park.January 26, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #732759bptParticipant
” Rabbi and Mrs.Gartenhaus from Boro Park. “
I don’t know Mrs, but Rabbi Gartenhaus is a real tzadik. I know someone very close to him, and he tells me of the chesed this man is involved in, its unreal.
It comes as no surprise that they would be involved with “situation shidduchim”
Its just like him, to go where the work is, and not necessarily where the glory is.January 27, 2011 5:06 am at 5:06 am #732760
They are equally special.Totally there for the klal.B”ah.January 27, 2011 5:07 am at 5:07 am #732761
And so are their children.May Hashem bensch them…January 27, 2011 5:29 am at 5:29 am #732762ProfessionalMember
where in BP are they? (Gartenhause) have not heard of them before. just curious. bh not for anyone who needs the service, but nice to know some tzaddikim around..
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