May 22, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #769131
OOMIS – way to go! great point!May 22, 2011 4:03 am at 4:03 am #769132
Popa – I’ve decided to ignore you. You apparently don’t get it. You are still saying things about us that I find offensive. You’re not really paying attention to what I’m saying. By the way – don’t refer to our opinions as “mishigas”. We are not saying that schools cannot institute new policies – but we do not have to agree with them. That also doesn’t mean we should take our kids out!May 22, 2011 4:11 am at 4:11 am #769133
gefen: If you can voice disagreement with your school, why cant others voice disagreement with you and your disagreement?May 22, 2011 4:22 am at 4:22 am #769134
You’re not really paying attention to what I’m saying.
I think popa did pay attention to what you’re saying, you just didn’t agree. You’re entitled to disagree, by the way.
Oomis, I think you are defining kedusha as anything which you agree with. Many people, though, specifically use the term to refer to separation from ta’avos, and more specifically, for tznius/gender separation issues.May 22, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #769135
Popa – I’ve decided to ignore you.
Please tell me you’re my Mother-in-law. :-))May 22, 2011 4:57 am at 4:57 am #769136
No popa – i’m not your mil. In fact i’m glad we’re not related 🙂 But i would like to meet your mil. maybe she would agree with me 🙂
btw- i am not the father who is not going to the graduation. i am the mother and i am IY”H going to the grad. my husband is another poster.May 22, 2011 5:00 am at 5:00 am #769137
No popa – i’m not your mil. In fact i’m glad we’re not related 🙂 But i would like to meet your mil. maybe she would agree with me 🙂
btw- i am not the father who is not going to the graduation. i am the mother and i am IY”H going to the grad. my husband is another poster.
I’m glad to see you’re not ignoring him any more. ?May 22, 2011 5:03 am at 5:03 am #769138
and no – i don’t feel all schools have to abide by the same rules as the Rav and his yeshiva that i mentioned before. i was just making a statement about that particular Rav.
also -we are not saying that we don’t like the school. we happen to be very happy with it. no school is perfect and there is always something that some parent won’t agree with. so we were just expressing our opinion and disappointment in this particular rule that they made recently.
true – ppl on cr have every right to disagree with us just as we have the right to disagree with them. but everything should be done in a mentchlich way – NOT A JUDGMENTAL WAY!May 22, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #769139
I just looked back at all my posts on this thread, and I think they are quite reasonable.May 22, 2011 5:11 am at 5:11 am #769140
I just looked back at all my posts on this thread, and I think they are quite reasonable.
I thought so too, but that might just be because I’m familiar with your style.May 22, 2011 5:20 am at 5:20 am #769141
Popa- Reasonable??? You came right out and said you are judging me! you also said i have mishigas! To me that’s quite chutzpadik and not in the Torah way. For someone who is so frum – shouldn’t you be more careful with your words?
speaking of mishigas – to what are you referring? that we don’t like the idea of my husband not attending the grad?
do you think i am in favor of my kids socializing in mixed groups? NOT AT ALL and Baruch Hashem they don’t!!!
And NO – my contention is not that the school is always wrong. from where did you get that idea?
yes – i am aware that not all frum schools have the same rules which just proves my point that you can be frum and have different opinions.
you say we should pick a school we like and just deal with the other stuff – that’s exactly what we did.
you say we shouldn’t judge others on their rules of tznius. i just don’t believe this is really a tznius issue. yes – they made it into one but i see nothing un- tznius about a father seeing his daughter gradutate. he’s not interested in the other girls. anyway it seems pointless to keep harping on this topic already. we’re obviously not going to agree.
btw – the tznius level in our family is, i believe, quite high. i don’t mean to sound holy or to brag. but you make it sound like we are putting down tznius.May 22, 2011 5:30 am at 5:30 am #769142
yes – they made it into one but i see nothing un- tznius about a father seeing his daughter gradutate.
I doubt the school does either, but your next sentence indicates that you do understand where there could be a potential tznius issue. A school has a right to be concerned about it. They also have a right not to be. They even have a right to change their minds.May 22, 2011 5:48 am at 5:48 am #769144
Derech Hamelech, there is more kedusha in both parents attending their daughter’s granduation and ELEVATING the occasion to one of kedusha, than trying to eliminate an entire 50% of parents from attending. What if the girl HAS no mother? What if she has NO female role model that will stand up when she walks in and clap for her with nachas?
How are you defining kedusha? Kedushah comes from the word to “separate”. How is there “separation” in your proposal?
The way to “ELEVATE the occasion” is by making it “separate” and by extension kadosh.
Your case of a girl who has no mother is not a way to make a rule. Most girls that are graduating have mothers. In extenuating circumstances, where one or two girls in the class don’t have a mother a school might be convinced to quietly bring in the father and have him sit off to the side behind some sort of mechitzah.
But you can’t make a rule that sacrifices all the fathers’ ruchniyus for the sake of one or two girls.May 22, 2011 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #769145
by the way just to let some of you know there is a very high mechitzah there. When sitting in the men,s section you see the roof. not the girls unless you are sitting in the first 2 or 3 rows. I think that is a good enough seperation as did the men speakers, (All rabbonim by the way}, rabbonim and roshei yeshiva who had attended in the past.
Das yochid you say there is a potential tznius issue here. I know the fathers quite well. None of them are the type of people that you are insinuating. And I would no doubt say that all the fathers are just as, if not frummer than pac-man, popa and a few others on this post.and No i don,t have anything at all against there opinions, but unless you are involved with all these type of people as am I please don’t think I do not know what i am talking about. I am also still waiting to here how he picked the name pac-man.May 22, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #769146
Whether right or wrong, I’m glad they have such a policy. You think I wanted to go to listen to a bunch of boring speechs? And to the poster who just says -“well you don’t have to go”, if they allow men -then you do have to go. How do you think your daughter will feel if she is the “odd ball” out, because her father didn’t come?May 22, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #769147
Why are we banning men from just HS graduations? Let’s prohibit them from visiting their daughters on visiting days in sleep away camps as well!!!May 22, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #769150
Question – why is it ok to be here on the ywn cr – after all we are men and women talking to each other. true we are anonymous – for the most part anyway. some posters do know who others are. also we generally do know which posters are male and female. so this might be considered a breach of tznius as well. no? listen there are many who say the internet is assur altogether – so should we be here at all?
Fritz – great point!May 22, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #769151
Fritz – Some women can’t drive. The men are the Baal Hagolah. But, I think they should ban or stop visiting day anyway, nothing to do with Tzinus.May 22, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #769152
I saw that. Hee Hee HeeMay 22, 2011 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #769153
Gefen – The net we enjoy as opposed to High School grads!
And obviously we are here blogging because we don’t hold like the ones who say internet is ossur especially blogging to all ages and genders!May 22, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #769154
Health: couldn’t agree more.May 22, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #769155
Why are we banning men from just HS graduations? Let’s prohibit them from visiting their daughters on visiting days in sleep away camps as well!!!
Since when do men sit through girls’ and women’s speeches on visiting day?
why is it ok to be here on the ywn cr – after all we are men and women talking to each other. true we are anonymous – for the most part anyway. some posters do know who others are. also we generally do know which posters are male and female. so this might be considered a breach of tznius as well. no?
This is a recurring point in the CR, but you failed to mention the main difference; here you can’t see the other person, nor do you even know what they look like.May 22, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #769156
Das yochid you say there is a potential tznius issue here. I know the fathers quite well. None of them are the type of people that you are insinuating.
I’m not insinuating anything about anyone; I wouldn’t want to go to a girls’ graduation myself (although I agree with Health that under certain circumstances it might be necessary).
And my main point was that your argument, that it’s okay for men to attend because it’s not untznius for a father to see his daughter’s graduation, is fallacious.May 22, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #769157
I am also still waiting to here how he picked the name pac-man.
Why do you care?May 22, 2011 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #769158
Das yochid. first of all you cannot in a month of sundays show any clear thinking frum yid how going to a graduation with girls totally covered with a graduation gown, no singing, a mechitzah, and I cannot think of any other precaution you can think of, is not not tznius. You, popa and pac-man have brought absolutely no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is a tznius issue. It is not. It is a holier than thou issue and i still say your attitudes and others like yours are the main problem in why many of the frum boys and girls are going otd or have a problem with frum authority. A question. is it better to go out in public, yes even in b.p. or williamsburg to see scantily clad women walking up and down our streets. isn’t it better to see our daughters graduate from a nice b.y. with a nice frum education?
and Daas the reason I want to know about pac-man is because the way he spouts his frumkeit he shouldn’t know from a shtus video game such as pac-manMay 23, 2011 12:04 am at 12:04 am #769160
Do you think this is productive for you?
Do you think this is a good thing to teach your daughter?
Why don’t you just stop being so bitter, accept that other people can have valid opinions, even about things that will make them seem frummer than you, and enjoy that your daughter is graduating.
Your daughter will only graduate from high school once. It is a special time for her. You shouldn’t ruin it by getting mad at the school.
Tell her you are proud. Tell her how much you’d love to be there. Make a party for her. Maybe go out for pizza. Buy her a certificate to have her nails done or something.
Really. This is not a conspiracy. This is a very valid opinion. Look over my past posts; I am not a tznius radical. Or any sort of radical.
You want proof beyond a shadow of doubt? Who is being unreasonable here?
Maybe the principal is doing it to be frummer than thou. Who knows. Maybe you are protesting it to be righter than thou.
But so what. This is the standard they adopted, it isn’t crazy, live with it.
gefen: Don’t tell me about chutzpa. When you know a tenth of the torah I know, we can discuss chutzpa. I’m not your daughter.May 23, 2011 1:08 am at 1:08 am #769164
you cannot in a month of sundays show any clear thinking frum yid…
Are all of the schools which have this policy run by people who are not clear thinking? Or perhaps people who aren’t frum?
Or is it possible that even if there is no blatant violation of halacha, there might be a legitimate sensitivity which is shared by many clear thinking frum people?
the reason I want to know about pac-man is because the way he spouts his frumkeit he shouldn’t know from a shtus video game such as pac-man
Okay, but he does. Does that invalidate any arguments he makes?May 23, 2011 1:45 am at 1:45 am #769165
pops – “when you know a tenth of the torah i know” – wow – quite the baal gaava you are! that’s very frum and yeshivish.
“i am not your daughter” Baruch Hashem!!! my children would never speak to anyone in that manner. they have the utmost derech eretz – unlike you.
go say some tehilim for the plane that’s in trouble. you’ll be better off that way.May 23, 2011 1:47 am at 1:47 am #769166
btw pops – it’s ppl like you who can turn ppl off! i am so disgusted by your comments.May 23, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #769167
As the custodian of my alma mater has said “its not gaava if its true.”
As far as the soft-spoken popa is concerned, it sometimes comes out a little harsher when the truth hits you in the face. Perhaps we are a little quick to attack people be they principals trying to instill the middah of tznius or be they soft-spoken people who try to give you hadracha.
It appears popa bar abba is the modern day zecharia. I suppose zecharia would still be alive had he only blogged his tochacha. and zecharia wasnt even your daughter.May 23, 2011 2:02 am at 2:02 am #769168
Bar Shattya is having a good Lag Baomer. He apparently has drunk a full Chai Rotel.May 23, 2011 3:17 am at 3:17 am #769170
btw pops – it’s ppl like you who can turn ppl off! i am so disgusted by your comments.
(Wrong thread?)May 23, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #769171
“Maybe go out for pizza. Buy her a certificate to have her nails done or something.”
Now THAT did not sound condescending at all.
“How are you defining kedusha? Kedushah comes from the word to “separate”. How is there “separation” in your proposal?
The way to “ELEVATE the occasion” is by making it “separate” and by extension kadosh.”
I believe I mentioned separate seating (for those who would be very troubled by family-style seating). Both parents brought the child into the world. Both should be able to shep the nachas. JMO (and apparently that of others, as well).May 23, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #769172
gaava is gaava – PERIOD. modern day Zecharia? please!!! you say he’s soft spoken? maybe to those who agree with him. if not, he attacks. i am sorry to say but i have no respect for him. ppl who speak harshly with me turn me off. B”H that hasn’t happened often at all. i am used to having respectful conversations with everyone, whether or not we agree. i stay away from confrontation as i find it very offensive.
i know he feels he’s done nothing wrong. and what i write here will not change his mind.
i know in my heart that we lead a Torah true life. i also know that all of us can improve in many areas and that’s just what we should strive to do. so having said that, i will end this post and worry about myself and my midos etc. i don’t wish to continue this bickering back and forth. it does no good.
maybe one day popa and i will find something on which to agree.May 23, 2011 3:26 am at 3:26 am #769173
Thanks, Gefen, I really only said what so many others are saying.May 23, 2011 3:32 am at 3:32 am #769174
Well stated popa and DY.May 23, 2011 3:37 am at 3:37 am #769175
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