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What should be done to men who refuse to give their wife a Get even after they got a divorce in civil court. They’re just doing it from spite or to blackmail the wife financially or otherwise. A Seiruv is given but what’s the next step? Should wife go to his Ruv, his Shul, his friends, his job, etc, to publicize? Put an ad in the Yiddishe papers? What about the kids and how the bad publicity could affect them? Obviously pressure to make these sinners do tshuva and give the Get is necessary and Halachicalky appropriate but sometimes there’s other considerations,
In a community that recognizes Jewish law (there are currently none in the world except perhaps a few Muslim countries with few Jews in them), the man would be responsible for his wife’s spending until he gave the “get”, which is probably why this problem only arose recently (in modern terms, until he gives the “get”, she keeps the credit card, he keeps the bills). We should be arguing that the marriage contract includes the condition that the man will pay for the woman’s support until a “get” is given – which poses fewer problems than in arguing that the marriage contract is an agreement to arbitrate, since most state object to anyone submitting a divorce to binding arbitration (i.e. a contract to submit a divorce proceeding to a Beis Din is void as against public policy, unlike strictly monetary disputes).
The overall most effective solution would be a takanah that no one can go to a civil court to ask for a divorce or separation until they have given (and accepted) the “get”, and (THIS WOULD BE RADICAL) if one side doesn’t cooperate then the Jewish community would pay all the legal fees for the other side (probably through a public interest law firm). Faced with having to fight someone with deep pockets (i.e. the frum public interest law firm, relying on tax deductible contributions and pro bono lawyers to supplement paid staff), most people would avoid litigation.
It should be noted that whenever anyone loks for statistics, most so-called “agunahs” resolve themselves in a short period of time, suggesting that most get-refusal involves men who hope to “save the marriage”, which is normal but is also a self-limiting problem (they give up after a while).
“They’re just doing it from spite or to blackmail the wife financially or otherwise.”
what if the “otherwise” you mention is not necessarily wrong.
I often hear “There is never a reason to withhold a get”
Is this really true?
Imagine the most extreme hypothetical case you can. The wife receives full custody of the children, the husband knows she abuses them but she is so conniving that she managed to brainwash the kids into thinking their loving father is the abuser. etc etc Add in more extreme far fetched details as you see fit.
(I am no referring to any specific case, as I said this is “hypothetical”)
Is it really wrong to withhold a get in this extreme case?
I’m conflicted it makes me squeamish but I dont know if it is necessarily wrong, especially considering the risk to children in this extreme case
what do others think?
It depends on which side you’re on…
As others would say; sometimes you have to really give it to the selfish rasha of a quy.. other times you have to (with AideleKite and lots of ‘geduld’, of course) explain to the princess in question to give up on some of her unrealistic demands..
The picture get more clear if you’re involved, if you’re on one of the sides.. if you “reall know” “everything”. Oh yeah!
If it’s blackmail it’s wrong.
what do others think?
Some agree with you, and some disagree. This topic has come up in the CR before.
I happen to agree with you. The word “never” is too absolute.
If the husband can not convince the court (preferably a Beis Din) to give him at least joint custody, his opinion is probably irrelevant. If the wife is guilty of serious misconduct the husband needs adequate representation in a court, but he’ll probably get custody. Allowing a husband to submit the matter to Beis Din, knowing that if the Beis Din supports his arguments, and the wife refuses to accept the Beis Din’s decision, the Beis Din will arrange adequate legal representation for him in the civil courts will probably convince the wife to compromise (and in any event the Beis Din will demand the man issue the “get” as a condition of getting support).
The problem today is that often neither party can afford legal counsel (or worse, only one can), and refusing to give the “get”, or “kidnapping” the children is the only affordable alternative for an aggreived party.
Another problem is that seruvs are routinely ignored by shuls, and other organizations.
lesshumras: One shouldn’t forget there are usually two sides to any story. Very few men claim they are not giving a “get” because they feel they can profit by blackmailing the wife’s family into giving lots of money, even though the man admits he deserves nothing. The beauty of a enforcing the rule that the man gets dunned for her expenses is that it incentivizes him to give a get withour dubious forms of coercion. Similarly, if the Beis Din can threaten to pick up her legal expenses (or his if she is being a problem, which is rare), that will greatly encourage compliance out of self-interest.
If there’s no Chiyuv Get then there’s no chiyuv to give a Get.
Joseph: But there is a chiyuv to support one’s wife (and children) which ends when you give the get – and its a lot easier to chase after money. The problems with gittin involve men using the get for leverage, typically for money. If we focused on enforcing the financial obligation, if effect by having a collection agency attached to the Beis Din, it would incentivize the reluctant male to give the get. And while courts are reluctant to let people arbitrate complex equitable actions such as child custody, enforcing money judgments is less problematic.
The ideal solution in a failed marriage would be to structure things so the man comes running to the Beis Din, begging for permission to give the get, ASAP, before his soon to be -ex spends all his money. And if he has to worry that she’ll end up with a free lawyer – that’s more fearsome than having his shul stop giving him an aliyah. And since none of this is “coercion” in a halachic sense, no shailoh about the halachic correctness of the get.
Sign the halachik prenup! Make sure this problem never can happen to begin with.
akuperma: If he has no chiyuv Get then the beis din has no halachic basis to make him pay her any monies. Of course he has his obligation as a husband to support his wife. And he can fulfill that obligation by letting her know that he filled the fridge with food, the closet with clothes for her, heated the home for her comfort and even bought her a nice bracelet for yom tov (which he put in her jewelry box on their bedroom dresser). And she’s immediately welcome to come home for all of it. He’s thus fully fulfilling his obligation to support her and he cannot be forced to send cash in lieu of that support.
Its amazing how many Halachic opinions there are here without quoting any sources.
It does say I think in Simin 82 Even Hezer that in case of divorce the mother gets full custody of the children and the father must pay child support to the mother. It also says I think in Simin 115 (or around there)that Beis Din will force a man both physically or monetarily to give a Get it the right circumstances (as they see fit for example if he refuses to be with her, beat her…).
As for who is at fault I don’t think it makes a difference, anyone who thinks it is ok to keep someone in chains has something wrong with their head (it also says in the Torah that if a person is a Mumar we should try to kill him (Simin 412 Choshen Mishpat) not everything in the Torah has to be done rather we listen to Chazal.
The best solution is what works today. 1. Beat him up (you might get caught and thrown in jail, but this has the best chance). 2. Through ORA you can protest at his house. 3. Get him to Israel and thrown in jail. 4. Get his friends and neighbors to help out.
My heart goes out to anybody in a situation like this. A true ????.
The halacha on custody says the mother gets custody till age 6 and then the father gets custody. The Shulchan Aruch says forcing is only permissible in the very few cases the Gemora specifically specified that it is permitted. The S”A and Rema EH 77:2/77:3 says a husband normally cannot be forced or even pressured to give a divorce. Rav Eliashiv in Kovetz Teshuvos 134 and Rav Sternbuch in Teshuvos v’Hanhagos 1:389 pasken that as well.
Think again.. read again.. fully..
Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvos 134):
I have tried to look for this Teshuva from Rav Elyashiv ZT”L and can not find it in vol 1-4, if you can please write where it is.
Regarding custody I looked it up and in Simin 82 Sif 7 it says that the mother always gets full and complete custody of both the boy and girl forever (when the boy turns 6 the father can say that he does not want to pay child support because he wants his son to teach him Torah, but this only applies to money not custody). This is all black on white ??”?, maybe you have a different edition.
A lady can force divorce in many cases for example (abuse, she can swear not to eat certain foods or be with him and many more types of Nedarim all brought in SH”A which come from Mishnayos). Also see IG”M simin 7980 where he writes that if a husband lost his mind a get might not even be needed. It was also stated in the Teshuva you quoted from Rav Elyashiv (where?) that if she gives a reason Beis Din should force it. The Gemara and SH”A also pasken that a lady does not have to live with a snake. In the times of Chazal or even the Rabeinu Asher these were enforced by beatings.
Kovetz Teshuvos vol. 1 #174. See also the teshuva I referred above from Rav Shternbuch. The rare cases where he can be forced require proof that the claim she makes is true. In any case, you’re overstating when it can be done. Read those two teshuvos as well as the Rishonim and Achronim and especially Shulchan Aruch and Rema that Rav Elyashev and Rav Shternbuch refer to in their teshuvos. Read Rav Elyashev again. He says very clearly and repeatedly that we don’t (and beis din can’t) force him.
There is and has always been a wide gap between the halacha in the sefarim and what happens in the real world. This occurs in most legal systems, especially in domestic relations matter. Most people getting divorced do not take out a Shulhan Arukh or a gemara to research the grounds – they have decided they can’t stand each other.
One or both of them want the other to be out of his/her life. One of them, usually the man, wishes to free of having to support the wife, and that can be exploited in getting him to give a get. It is very rare that someone is refusing to give a get, and also sending money to the wife since what he wants is for her to give him money (and if the man is cheerfully paying his wife’s expenses, it suggests the issue is that he wants a reconciliation and a rationale Beis Din will stall in the hope of it happening).
The various types of coercion (throwing him in jail, beating him up, etc.) are highly dubious since in all systems a legal act done under duress is invalid. Creating an economic incentive to give a get is no coercion – thus my suggestion that the Beis Din make sure the woman (in the typical case) has a free law who can enforce the support requirements and by representing the woman if the husband goes to civil courts, create a strong incentive for him to settle (fear of having to litigate against someone with deep pockets is NOT coercion by any standard, even if it has the same effect).
akuperma: See my earlier comment above that I addressed to you. If the husband is offering his wife support in his home then the beis din halachicly can’t make him send her money in lieu of the support he’s offering her in his home.
“There is and has always been a wide gap between the halacha in the sefarim and what happens in the real world.”
The consequences of failing to follow the halachic laws on gittin is severe when a Get is pressured kneged halacha resulting in a Get Me’usa and the potential for future mamzeirim.
“One or both of them want the other to be out of his/her life.”
In the halachic system, unless there are specific halachicly recognized (and proven) “grounds”, a divorce can only be obtained with the mutual consent of both spouses. One spouse cannot impose a divorce upon the other unwillingly.
“Creating an economic incentive to give a get is no coercion”
An economic penalty for not granting it is recognized as coercion under halacha.
“if the husband goes to civil courts”
Neither party is permitted to initiate proceedings in civil courts to adjudicate any dispute. (An exception might be granted if one party defies beis din.)
In terms of reconciliation, if either spouse is seeking that then the general rule under halacha is that the beis din must pursue that and cannot force a divorce.
akuperma – Many times the husband is paying child support and alimony because he is ordered to by civil court order,this can equal to 75% of his income. There is no incentive for the husband to agree to a Get. If physical force is used to obtain a Get even if it is condoned by the Rabbi can result in criminal charges against both the Rabbis and the wife If you are talking about financial penalties this too wouldn’t work because usually the husband is broke by the time the divorce is over and if he reduce his income so that his portion of the income is at the poverty level the courts can’t do anything to him.
Why would the husband go to civil court first he can get a heter mayer rabboninm, get permission from 100 Rabbis that the divorce is warranted. Once he got it he is divorced by Jewish law and can go to civil court which will approve it as at least here in NY state which has no fault divorce so there is a limit to how long Deep pockets can delay. Also as a party to the litigation Deep Pockets may have to reveal his assets as both husband a wife must and prove that deep pocket’s assets are not the wife’s. Civil court is needed for alimony and child support which will not be covered if the divorce is via Heter Mayer Rabbonim.
The five yes five years I was trapped because my ex would not move out or give me a get (and I had literally nowhere to go away to) were the most difficult years of all.our lives. Everyone who supported my ex in ignoring my repeated requests will have to give din vcheshbon one day.
men, if its over, deal with it like men.
Rachel, you said “A Seiruv is given but what’s the next step?” I would say it all depends. What does the seiruv actually say? Did a Beis Din actually order the husband to issue his wife a Get? If so, the answer is simple. The husband should do so. If not, then the husband may not be in the wrong.
I hear about communities siding with the husband and shunning the trapped wife. I wonder if someone reading these posts and is among them could shed light on why?
Flat, could you cite the specifics of a case where the husband wouldn’t comply with a Beis Din’s Get and wasn’t shunned? I’ve seen where the recalitrant husband is told to leave a minyan & they’re generally held in low regard. I’ve never heard of a case where a husband was ordered by a beis din to give his wife a Get; refused to do so, and wasn’t held in low regard. Thanks.
babbler, it ain’t over till the fat man sings. Seriously though, it isn’t over until and unless it’s mutually agreed that it’s over. It generally cannot be decided to be over unilaterally. That being said, without elucidating details its unclear why you think he had an obligation to move.
As a rule if the husband is popular his friend and the community will side with him. Just look at Clinton everyone knows what he did to those women . Does anyone shun the Clintons ? Even if he is not popular most of his friends wouldn’t shun him and depending on the strength of the sisterhood and whether the shul is affiliated with the Bais Din will determine if he is shunned.
If the goal is to get the husband to leave you will achieve your goal by slighting him, although he may find a different shul.If your goal is to get him to give a get then you will fail. He will move if he thinks his wife’s family is after him,fall off the grid and it will be 10 times harder for anyone to find him and convince him to give the wife a get.
Joseph, use your cyber brain.please, if only.one person desperately wants out, I think.you can.guess what the dynamics are. No abusive spouse ever said, would you like a get, sweetheart? so.this unilateral thing, sorry.
Joseph, I didnt mean any disrespect,sorry
I’m not sure an apology is necessary here
thebabbler – my sympathies for all that you have been through. You sound like a wonderful person who has a had a really tough life and I hope Hashem grants you a wonderful year that will make up for everything that you have been through until now!!!
Joseph – I’m just curious as to where your views are coming from. You seem to assume that most of the time when the wife wants the divorce and the husband doesn’t, the wife does not really have a good reason for wanting the divorce and they should not get divorced.
My assumption on the other hand has always been that in most cases like that, the wife does have a good reason, and that usually the reason is that her husband is abusive. Even in those cases in which the issue is only “personality issues” (which I had always assumed was the minority of cases), I always assumed that they had tried to work it out and it was impossible to do so, and the husband was just being stubborn and selfish by refusing to give a get.
You, on the other hand, seem to assume that when the husband refuses to give a Get, it is not out of stubbornness or selfishness but rather because he feels that things can be worked out, and she is the one who is being selfish by refusing to try to work things out.
Both of us are making assumptions, and I have no idea who is right. There are probably some cases that fit your scenario and some cases that fit mine, and I have no idea which one is the more common case.
I am just curious as to where your views are coming from and why you are making the assumptions that you are making? Again, you are probably right in some cases and possibly even in most (although certainly not in all cases – such as Thebabblers – and possibly not in most), but I am curious as to why you assume that this is the most likely case?
Is it because you personally know or were involved in cases like that, and therefore that is your immediate assumption? Is it because Rav Avigdor Miller apparently implied as much (although personally, I am still assuming his words may have been taken out of context)? Or is it for some other reason?
“it ain’t over till the fat man sings.”
lol. I guess you are capable of political correctness :). Either that or just overly makpid on kol isha.
lilmod, thanks:) I wish you the same
I think “personality issues” are far more common than abuse issues in divorce cases. I think abuse is over described and over claimed, but claimed personality issues are much more numerous than even claimed abuse issues. I have those views from numerous conversations with rabbonim dealing with numerous divorces.
the babbler – Amen.
Joseph – the babbler is nicer than me so she is not going to tell that you she was offended & wants an apology.
“it ain’t over till the fat man sings.”
lol. I guess you are capable of political correctness :). Either that or just overly makpid on kol isha.
According to Jewish Law a wife is considered married until she receives a GET from her husband and the husband must willingly give it. A husband has control of all property owned by his wife so a husband has full rights to live in the family house even if she is the titled owner. If the wife moves out in both secular and Jewish Law she is still considered married. I am sorry that thebabbler was treated the way she was by her husband but I think this was handled badly. Without hearing the whole story, and with wife moved out, the husband has no incentive to give a get and move out of the family home. He has the advantage of divorce not living with the wife without having to divide the family assets. Why should he want to get divorced and have all those financial responsibilities. As a society we should not allow this to go on as long as it did. I think one of the husband’s friends finally convinced him that best thing for him to do is give a get, move out of the house and move on with his life.
The wife has a hatred for the husband this hatred is preventing her from having loving feeling towards another man. If her ex wronged her he will pay for his crimes in the next world. If the wife can forget, forgive and totally erase all memory of her ex. She will be ready for a new beginning and will be on the road to find her true love.
I hope that wasn’t rude – I was trying to say that as politely as I could, but I hope I’m not being too presumptuous. I apologize if I am.
lilmod, ty but I am not upset:) I just like to set the record straight.
It’s interesting that you have found that “personality issues” are a more common reason for divorce than abuse issues. That was a “chiddush” to me. I think it is possible tht you are right because I have been finding that more and more lately when I check out divorces. I have a feeling that it may be a relatively recent phenomenon. And I think that it is possible that nowadays there are people who are getting divorced who perhaps shouldn’t be (although I have no idea what percentage, but I think 99% is way too high).
On the other hand, it is important to realize that sometimes when people speak of “personality differences” they might really mean abuse. I think it can be difficult sometimes to clearly differentiate between abuse and personality issues. After all, when people don’t get along, chances are that they are going to end up being abusive. Also, there is not necessarily a clear cut definition of abuse. I know people who I think are abusive and if they were married to me or almost anyone else, they would be considered abusive, but because they are married to people who are like them, it works.
the babbler – like I said, you are nicer than me :).
So I guess I was being presumptuous. Sorry about that, Joseph.
Abba, with all due respect, you are missing a lot of details, so I dont blame you for not understanding, but many of us would love to forget. No more nightmares! Read The High Road Is Dangerous thread, and you will get a glimpse of why it’s a challenge to forget.
lilmod, re: your last point, you are right. The abusive person may remarry someone tougher and/or who has the status they crave, and BEHAVE. The second wife is not being mistreated, and if she was, the guy would be thrown out, so the guy figures out what he has to do to stay, and acts human.
I was raised with the concept of sticks & stones may break my bones but names will never harm me. People never want to accept responsibility for their action and so blame others. It happens all the time at work, I get blamed for something I had no control over. As long as it doesn’t effect my salary or my personnel record I just ignore it.
thebabbler I don’t ever read a whole thread all I do is look at the heading and the last few post and comment so of course I don’t get all the details. I also realize it’s very difficult to forget the injustice done by your ex but you must. After World War II thousand of Jews who lived through horrors of the concentration camps came to America. Those who choose not to dwell on the past were successful in building new lives and built the Jewish communities that we have today. Those who choose to dwell in the pass never married or accomplished much. You need to move on to the next stage of your life. I am not a marriage counselor, therapist or shrink in fact at work I mostly analyze figures (numbers) and have minimal interaction with people so I might not be the best person to give you advise.
“I was raised with the concept of sticks & stones may break my bones but names will never harm me.”
That’s a completely goyish concept. Go read any Sefer on the importance of Shmiras Haloshon, and you will see how much harm can be done through words! Or check out my new Hilchos Shmiras Haloshon thread once it starts getting filled!
abba, stop.thanks.
Remembering does NOT mean not moving on in life. When.people say that to someone who has moved on.in every way possible except memory and CURRENT obstacles they sound ignorant.
Among other trite and ignorant statements like: Oh well, takes two to tango yknow…plus there are three sides to every story…blah blah blah.
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