Menahel's Decision To Expel A ?Good? Boy

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  • #596886

    daboss
    Member

    A friend’s son is due to graduate high school in 3 weeks. He was expelled because it was alleged that he had communication with the other gender.

    The boy is beyond inconsolable. He feels that it’s all over. He’s been made to feel as if he committed the worst crime on earth.

    The parents are devasted because he is an A+ student and did nothing more than have a public conversation with his neighbor.

    This seemed to have irritated a “yenta” on the block who chose to call the Yeshiva and blow the whole story out of proportion.

    The Yeshiva questioned the boy who did not deny the fact that he had an innocent conversation IN PUBLIC, IN FRONT OF THE GIRL’S HOUSE, 4 HOUSES FROM WHERE HE LIVES.

    Classmates who openly support him were told that if they continue, they will not be allowed to graduate either….

    Is the yeshiva’s decision extreme? Should he be allowed to graduate and not be further humiliated before his friends with whom he spent the last 12 years in yeshiva?

    #767274

    Shrek
    Member

    sounds like an over-reaction to me.

    The boy has one foot out the door already, why end his high school career in a way that will leave anger and resentment?

    #767275

    Ofcourse
    Member

    If the school wants to create another OTD case, theyre doing the right thing.

    #767276

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Sounds like there is more to the story than being reported here.

    #767277

    dunno
    Member

    That sounds absolutely INSANE to me!! Poor boy πŸ™

    #767278

    s2021
    Member

    That is so ridiculous, it cant b the whole story. Im sure there is more too it.

    #767279

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    And if we agree/disagree, will it change the school’s mind?

    #767280

    Shrek
    Member

    maybe the yeshiva would take him back if he marries her.

    #767282

    aries2756
    Participant

    s2021, sorry, yes it can be the whole case. Why doesn’t the Rosh Yeshiva tell such a yenta that you are not allowed to Masser?

    You can post most of what you wrote in the first two paragraphs. I just didn’t want to edit your post so much.

    #767283

    pookie
    Member

    We gotta do somethin’ about these yentas!

    #767284

    Health
    Participant

    aries – “sorry, yes it can be the whole case. Why doesn’t the Rosh Yeshiva tell such a yenta that you are not allowed to Masser?”

    On one hand it can the whole case and on the other it might not be. Why don’t you judge up the yeshiva favorably, just like you do the boy? So until people hear from both sides they should refrain from any negative comments!

    #767285

    grada
    Member

    i really feel bad for this kid because now hes gonna have to fight for his diploma which he worked hard for and now because some yenta sed something hes not gonna get what he rightfully deserves.

    and good for his classmates for sticking up for him

    #767286

    charliehall
    Participant

    The boy should take the school to beit din. He would win because the “yenta” is not a kosher witness in a beit din proceeding, because she is a she.

    #767287

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why doesn’t the Rosh Yeshiva tell such a yenta that you are not allowed to Masser?

    There are rules about lashon hara. We don’t know enough to know if they were violated.

    But, if they were violated, perhaps he did tell her that.

    #767288

    s2021
    Member

    go Health!

    #767289

    grada
    Member

    does it say anywhere in this unnamed school’s handbook that a boy may not talk to a girl. because if it doesnt then the hanhalah has no right to withold his diploma

    #767290

    achosid
    Participant

    You want the kid back in?

    Just post the name of the yeshiva here, along with some contact info, an I promise before the day is over, he will be right back in class.

    Maybe a front page YWN article would be a good idea too.

    #767291

    grada
    Member

    achosid

    im with on this one but we have to remember not to play dirty, after all playing dirty is what started this whole thing

    #767292

    Josh31
    Participant

    If indeed this is the policy of the school to expel boys for talking to girls, I ask that the school inform every potential donor of this before accepting any monies.

    #767293

    Sender Av
    Member

    I am having a hard time taking this post seriously. Come on people! How long has daboss been a member? and I apologize if I am incorrect about this but it is just too far fetched in my mind.

    #767294

    smartcookie
    Member

    Stop judging before you heard two sides of the story. I don’t accept that the Yeshiva just expels like that. For all we know they warned the boy a hundred times before.

    We won’t know the truth and the CR cannot help you other than listening to your venting!

    #767295

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you are talking about a Chassidishe or Charedishe Yeshiva, and this Bochur had a full conversation with a girl, then he stepped way out of bounds. The Yeshiva can’t treat something so foreign as just another trouble.

    #767296

    He’s been a member for a few years but this is his first post.

    Strange.

    #767297

    gefen
    Participant

    Ofcourse: You said exactly what I was thinking.

    Achosid: I’m with you too. An article on the front page of YWN might not be a bad idea.

    Josh31: Great point!

    Sendar Av: Unfortunately i am not having a hard time believing this story. I’ve heard too many crazy stories lately. People are getting out of hand in the name of “frumkeit”.

    I will say that it is true that we don’t know the whole story. Who knows if this boy hasn’t been in trouble before with the school? But if this is the whole story, then I really feel sorry for him.

    #767298

    gefen
    Participant

    Daboss: maybe print out this thread and anonymously send it to the menahel. πŸ™‚

    #767299

    always here
    Participant

    my son once had his father’s video store card on him.. it fell out of his pocket.. & he got expelled immediately. no warning, no second chance.

    I think I do believe this could have happened to the boy in the OP.

    sad, but true.

    #767300

    agittayid
    Participant

    I don’t know if this incident is true.

    However, arbitrarily expelling students could very well have a very negative effect on the remaining students in the yeshiva. “If my friend can be expelled suddenly for some infraction, it could happen to me just as easily,” a student might say to himself.

    #767301

    Health
    Participant

    I just have a question to all the posters who are decrying the decision of the yeshiva (if indeed the OP statement is accurate). Is it that you think there is nothing wrong with a boy talking to a girl or you think they should have Rachmonus? If parents think there is nothing wrong and there are am sure plenty who do, why not send to a MO school? I heard that there are 2 MO schools, one in NJ and one in Balto., closing for next year. I just have the feeling people like to pretend they are frummer than they really are.

    It’s not like everybody is becoming right wing, but everyone on the outside has to pretend they are. Why are you upset if a Yeshiva actually practices what they preach? The yeshiva doesn’t have to accept lower standards. If you want lower standards go to a MO school. If you want to fake about videos, Tzinus and everything else that these yeshivos don’t allow, don’t complain when you get caught. Or don’t be two-faced and send your kids to the MO schools!

    #767302

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Health makes a good point.

    We should separate our discussion of whether we think boys and girls having casual relationships is good or bad, with the discussion of how a school should deal with it when their position is that it is bad.

    #767303

    Health
    Participant

    Popa – Is this a first -saying I have “a good point”?

    Anyway thanks.

    #767304

    Josh31
    Participant

    A decision to expel is a very serious decision. Unless the expelled student is immediately transferred to another orthodox Jewish school, the student is being pushed “with both hands” out of the Torah community. This can only be justified if the student’s continued presence in the school will destroy others spiritually. At least in one case where a girl had to be expelled, one of the administrators did indeed fast the rest of of the day. This is similar to the fasting Beis Din would do when they had to sentence someone to death.

    #767305

    MindOverChatter
    Participant

    Health: Very well said. (It’s nice to see some clarity once in a while on here..;))

    If parents enroll their kids in a Yeshiva where it’s unacceptable to converse with girls and one boy violates the rule, then yes, I think they should expell him. He simply doesn’t fit the bill for this Yeshiva. Perhaps MO will do, as Health suggested.

    #767306

    apushatayid
    Participant

    How do you spell troll?

    #767307

    Working on it
    Participant

    Assuming that the story is true, I still think it is incumbent on the school to find out what the circumstances are before expelling a student a few weeks before graduation. What if the boy was simply asked to borrow something from this neighbor and it happened to be that the girl was the one in the house to give it to him? Should he completely ignore her until someone else from the house is available to give him something? I understand the idea/hashkafa of boys not interacting with girls. However, there are times when things are not what they appear. A nosy, self righteous neighbor can ruin a boys life over something that was innocent in the first place and, as someone else pointed out, lead him OTD.

    Very sad

    #767308

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Working, that is not the story given here.

    #767309
    #767310

    Ayala11
    Participant

    Working on it: very good point- who knows what he was talking about?

    Then again, who am I to judge?

    #767311

    Working on it
    Participant

    HaLeiVi

    Actually, it is the story.

    From the original post:”The Yeshiva questioned the boy who did not deny the fact that he had an innocent conversation…”

    #767312

    trak443
    Member

    Being “dun l’kaf zechus” goes for the boy AND the Menhael.

    1. Maybe he IS a good boy.

    2. Maybe he isn’t.

    3. Maybe he was warned.

    4. Maybe he wasn’t.

    5. Maybe he shouldn’t need to be warned. (chassidish, or black hat etc…)

    6. Maybe there are extenuating circumstances in favor of the boy.

    7. Maybe there are extenuating circumstances that the Menahel had to take into consideration.

    And last, but definitely NOT least:

    Sometimes it’s actually best for the student to be thrown out!

    Maybe it isn’t about his short term reputation, but about learning there are consequences to one’s actions in life. Giving him a “ride” now, might just push underlying problems down the road, and the Menahel (maybe even asking Da’as Torah? gasp!) had to do, what he had to do.

    Letting him learn this lesson now, might save him a lot of grief and issues later on in life. The Menahel doesn’t have to hate someone to throw him out. He might have to LOVE AND CARE for him.

    Unless you heard from both the Menahel and the boy FIRST HAND, this is all kinda ridiculous at best, and loshon horah (if anyone reveals the name of the boy, girl, or school) at worst.

    #767313

    aries2756
    Participant

    Health, these stories are indeed true and it is very common among yeshivas for both boys and girls. This is a “blind” attitude and it is one that “SHOVES” children off the derech without rachmanus. Kids are thrown out of yeshiva and off unto the streets without warning for such an infraction. The punishment does not fit the crime, especially at the end of a school year, especially for a senior, for an excellent student in both midos and grades.

    The Rosh Yeshiva should have A) Told the Yenta that he does NOT listen to Loshan Horah B) She is not permitted to Masser C) Asked the Bochur what the circumstances were surrounding the incident and then explained why HE thought it was wrong especially since he had an exemplary record.

    edited.

    #767314

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m not getting why some posters are more concerned with the “yenta” than with the kid.

    The question on the floor is the proper treatment of the kid by the school, after they have found out about the incident.

    What the yenta should or could have done, and what the school should or could have told her is really irrelevant.

    Aries: How can you use the term “masser” here. Do you know what a moser is? Do you bandy it about so loosely?

    #767315

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    He was expelled because it was alleged that he had communication with the other gendre.

    The Yeshiva questioned the boy who did not deny the fact that he had an innocent conversation IN PUBLIC, IN FRONT OF THE GIRL’ S HOUSE, 4 HOUSES FROM WHERE HE LIVES.

    Which part is “alleged”?

    Working, do you know what innocent conversation means? It does not mean, “Is your mother home? No? Ok. Give this to her. It’s from my sister who borrowed it”.

    Trak, you are very right. But if this thread was started by a troll in light of the ‘Zeitung’, it is only a theoretical discussion about a highly unlikely situation. An A student of a Yeshiva doesn’t do really do this kind of stuff. It sounds like an outsider’s perspective of how we ‘restrain’ and ‘confine’ our youth.

    #767316

    HolyMoe
    Participant

    Maybe this is a bit off topic.

    I vehemently protest the negative use of the name ‘YENTA”.

    My daughter’s name is Yenta. We call her Yentelle.

    She is very careful never to speak Lashon Hara about anyone.

    She is named after her great-grandmother who was a real Tzadekess.

    I hereby announce my protest for this bad connotion given to a Jewish name.

    #767317

    Pac-Man
    Member

    The person who reported it to the Menahel may very well had an obligation to do so.

    #767318

    aries2756
    Participant

    Mods, sorry, this is a very touchy subject with me because I am a child advocate and I have dealt with both these issues. It is quite a painful situation as you may well understand.

    #767319

    aries2756
    Participant

    PBA, YES I DO, and NO I DON’T. The mods edited, but they know exactly what my comparison was.

    #767320

    aries2756
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, really? An innocent conversation can also be “I was so sorry to hear about your ……I hope …..is feeling better. Please wish ………. a refuah sheleimah from me and my family. Or WE were so sorry to hear about the petirah of………………how is your ……………….dealing with it? Is there anything you need or that our family can help with?

    There are many innocent conversations, including mazel tovs, condolences, messages, thank yous, etc.

    #767321

    Working on it
    Participant

    Thanks Aries, my point exactly

    #767322

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Really, is this surprising to anyone?

    The bigger question is, does he need his diploma? If I were him, I would walk away and say “I know I’m fine. Let them throw their “tantrum” and I’ll live my life morally.”

    #767323

    BaalSechel
    Participant

    I find this entire discussion amusing. Since it’s highly unlikely that the story took place as described, why is everyone getting so worked up aboutit. This is a straw man in the classical sense of the word.

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