April 22, 2009 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #589703reenmasheenMember
If a bochur has trouble learning up a gemara on his own which would be better to use, an artscroll/chavrusah or listening to a daf yomi shiur?April 23, 2009 2:56 am at 2:56 am #643397David S.Member
I personally just open a bunch of meforshim and look, and eventually find it somewhere. That always works for me 🙂April 23, 2009 3:54 am at 3:54 am #643398RoshYeshivahMember
I once heard an interesting point on this topic. The gemara often encounters foreign and difficult concepts therefore if one tries to tackle these concepts with ease he might not fully grasp it’s full meaning. Take for example if we’d hear a wonderful simple explanation on einstein’s theory of relativeity we might think we understand it but those familiar with the depth of the concept will know that much toil is needed for our brains to process something so unfamiliar to us. The same for learning gemara we have to bring out our strongest talent of the mind to tackle it’s depth and if we let it be explained to us in story like fashion we haven’t reached the ultimate goal.April 23, 2009 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #643399JotharMember
Reenmachine, learn it on your own first, then use the Artscroll to see what you missed.April 23, 2009 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #643400charlie brownMember
RoshYeshiva and Jothar make very good points, I just wanted to add that the point of learning gemara is not just to know it – for that reading the artscroll translation without even looking at the aramaic would suffice and would even be better. The point is to toil and use your full mental capacities to try to understand it. You will gain much more from working hard on a gemara than by just reading it in English, even if when you are done you only have a sketchy understanding of the gemara. And as Jothar said, after you are done you can fill in the blanks with the artscroll.April 23, 2009 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #643402JotharMember
Thanks Charlie Brown. Good point.
I heard that the Gr”a was offered to be taught Torah by a Maggid ( a special malach who visits holy people- eg the Mechaber who wrote a sefer based on his visits by said Maggid called Maggid Meisharim). The Gr”a turned down the offer because he wanted to toil on his own. The bracha is “laasok bedivrei Torah”, not “lilmod Torah”.
That said, I’m not yet on the Gra’s level. After a good hour or 2 of hisbodedus, when the Maggid comes, I let the Maggid tell me everything.April 24, 2009 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #643403RoshYeshivahMember
yeah jothar when you’re done with the magid give him my address(it wouldn’t hurt to mention my position:-))April 24, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #643404yrosMember
artscroll is preferably not but a mesivta/chavrusa is not badApril 24, 2009 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #643406kapustaParticipant
finally! a simple, to the point, ANSWER!!!
this can not be found anytime in the CR history!
I nominate that post as post of the ____ (week, year, etc)April 24, 2009 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #643408an open bookParticipant
kapusta: what? you also need me to move it for you?April 24, 2009 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #643410kapustaParticipant
AOB, guess so, your title can then be called mover… 😉 (since you declined my second in command one)April 27, 2009 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #643412labochurMember
I agree with yros. but the best would be to use the jastrow or another dictionary and that way you’ll be figuring out the gemara, you’ll remember it better, get more schar for figuring it out (remember the gemara in brachos says the schar for learning is svara, putting in the effort to figure it out yourself)and you’ll eventually acquire the skill of figuring out a gemara by yourself. and if you need more help, i HIGHLY recomend a “cheat” sefer like the yisa bracha and you’ll learn a little more b’iyun in PSHAT gemara. but artscroll or mesivta will most probably not help you with the skills to figure out a gemara better. hatzlochaApril 28, 2009 2:12 am at 2:12 am #643413
labachur: you are 100% right. artscroll should only be used for teitch, not for p’shat.April 28, 2009 2:25 am at 2:25 am #643414
But let’s say a bochur has no idea how to learn a shtick g’mara by himself should he use artscroll or anything of the sort?April 28, 2009 2:29 am at 2:29 am #643415goody613Member
i figure if i keep on doing the gemara over and looking in meforshim i’ll get the pshat
w/o artscroll. but then again some people don’t have the time to sit and try to figure out the pshatApril 28, 2009 2:32 am at 2:32 am #643416
i try to stay away if possibal. But A couple days ago, i had a 40 blatt bechinah and i needed it so i just used it for what i needed it, because if you used it for too long you get to comfortable with it.April 28, 2009 2:38 am at 2:38 am #643417JaxMember
mroosinsehry: But let’s say a bochur has no idea how to learn a shtick g’mara by himself should he use artscroll or anything of the sort?
in that case artscroll would be a good plan, till he gets someone to help him out!April 28, 2009 2:40 am at 2:40 am #643418
thank you jax, just wonderingApril 28, 2009 3:09 am at 3:09 am #643419JaxMember
mroosinsehry: your welcome! 🙂
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