- This topic has 32 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Which shittos hold mezonos bread is mezonos and which hold it is hamotzi? And why hamotzi even though it isn’t real bread? And on what basis?
Whatever bread you are referring to, is probably Hamotzi according to Ashkenazim, even if you eat one crumb at 3 AM.
If you want more than that, we need a lot more information. Why don’t you tell us the recipe.
Egg Matzo is more likely Mezonos, than any so called Mezonos bread shall ever be; Yet we are so Makpid to use bread & not to resort to egg Matzo for Shabbos Erev Pesach, so Al Achas Kamo v’Kamo, that we cannot treat so called Mezonos bread as cake & not as haMotzie.
My kids even wash for & recite Bikas haMozon after Pizza. [Fortunately for myself, I am mature enough to stay away from this unhealthy food}
See my post under copying music.
How is it that some hold one slice pizza is mezonos but two slices are hamotzi?
You need a little bit of a background in the halachos to talk about it.
Popa means hamotzi.
correct. popa does mean hamotzi. Maybe a nice mod will fix that for us, so that people don’t do it.
It seems that there is a disagreement among poskim – with Chasidish poskim ruling mezonos on many food items Litvish poskim rule hamotzi.
thanks mod!
It seems that there is a disagreement among poskim – with Chasidish poskim ruling mezonos on many food items Litvish poskim rule hamotzi.
Hmm. I wonder why. Can you throw us a citation about it?
“
It seems that there is a disagreement among poskim – with Chasidish poskim ruling mezonos on many food items Litvish poskim rule hamotzi.
“
chasidish-litvish, is that where the split is?
in this case my understanding was otherwise.
Those who hold one slice of pizza is mezonos, probably do so because the one slice is a nosh to them and not a meal. My rov always held that if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, even if it a LITTLE duck, it’s still hamotzi. 🙂
I could write on this topic at great length, but I don’t have time tonight.
Chassidish-litvish? Really? Because we’re chassidish blood (like, my great-grandfather was chassidish but we’re not) without a drop of litvish, and we wash on all bread. Including one slice of pizza. Including mezonos rolls and pitas made with apple juice (I’ve gotten weird looks over that one). It’s a family thing, I just don’t know where from.
Generally speaking baked goods where the primary solid ingredient is flour from one of the 5 species of grain should be hamotzi no matter what amount is eaten. One exception to this rule mentioned in the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch is called pas haba’ah b’kisnin, which is mezonos unless one eats a quantity that most people would consider a full meal when eaten with appropriate side dishes. The Beis Yosef explains the underlying logic is that pas haba’ah b’kisnin is a form of bread that has lost the primary quality that gives bread its special beracha; it is not usually eaten as the mainstay of a meal.
The Rishonim give three different explanations for what qualifies as pas haba’ah b’kisnin: a filled pastry, dry crackers, and the one relevant to our discussion is dough kneaded with sweeteners such as juice or sugar. According to the Mechaber if the sweetness is significantly noticeable it loses its status as regular bread, according to the Rema it needs a predominantly sweet flavor. Cake is the most obvious example of this form of baked goods. Some Poskim, notably the Maharsham in Daas Torah, write that if the majority liquid in the dough is other liquids such as juice and not water, the item needs not be extremely sweet to be mezonos. Based on this, many have come under the impression that there is such an item as a “mezonos roll”.
However there are numerous problems with this conclusion. Most “mezonos rolls” are made with reconstituted juice where the water is actually of greater volume than the concentrate. According to most Poskim only the concentrate counts as juice, and in fact the roll contains a majority of water. Additionally, these rolls are designed to be eaten as a sandwich for a meal, and fail to meet the underlying logic of pas haba’ah b’kisnin as a non-staple pastry; rather they are considered in Halacha to be regular bread. The Marsham himself clearly is only referring to a food that is not eaten as a meal because of its sweetness, because he writes that eggs and beer, while technically Mei Peiros, do not count as “other liquids” to render a pastry baked with them as the primary liquid a non-bread item because they are not sweet. Clearly it was never his intention to consider the presence or absence of water the sole qualifying factor to determine what beracha is said on baked goods.
So it seems to me that a mezonos roll or bagel must be hamotzi even if only a small quantity is eaten.
Many pizza shops feel they are better serving their customers if they can save them pizza that does not require washing and bentching, so they make the dough using apple juice or milk, in effect a “mezonos roll”. While Reb Moshe zatzal seems to have accepted this, but as we mentioned previously it is conditional on considering pizza a snack and not a meal. If pizza is generally eaten as a meal by most people most of the time, it CAN NOT be pas haba’ah b’kisnin and is always hamotzi, even for HALF a slice or less.
If pizza is generally eaten as a meal by most people most of the time…
What if it is eaten as a meal, but only because we have to wash on it?
What does Rav Moshe say, in the psak you reference?
Ezzzzzaklee
brech: Reb Moshe ruled that pizza is pas haBa’ah b’Kisnin and one makes Mezonos on a single slice.
PBA: good question. I suspect that if it is generally eaten as a meal, we do not concern oourselves with the underlying motive.
hello99, I hate to disagree but that doesn’t sound right to me. Take fruits for example. The halacha is that you must wash your hands to eat if the fruit is wet. So does this halacha cause people to wash, sit down, and make a meal of fruits? Or even restrict ourselves to eating fruit at mealtimes? No, we dry the fruit or eat it without washing it to avoid the requirement. But if we had to wash for dry fruit too, you can be sure the answer would be different.
With pizza there is no way around it. Making it into a meal most times is a direct result of the requirement to wash and make hamotzi, not a cause for the psak. The proof is that those who are not chayyiv in mitzvos will eat pizza for snack as often as not.
Sorry for the comparison, I know it wasn’t apples to apples 🙂
Squeak: I wonder if people who make mezonos on pizza eat it as a snack?
If they don’t, maybe it is because they are socially affected by the rest of us who do wash and won’t eat it as a snack.
squeak: I don’t understand your point. I’m suggesting that when we evaluate whether or not a baked good is a “meal” or a “snack” we look at how people actually eat it. Even if they only eat it as a meal due to external considerations (such as the Chiyuv to wash) it is still a meal. Fruits are not eaten as a meal, the bottom line is they are NOT a meal food.
…baked goods where the primary solid ingredient is flour from one of the 5 species of grain should be hamotzi on matter what amount eaten…
… whatever bread you are referring to, is probably Hamotzi according to Ashkenazim, even if you eat one crumb at 3 AM…
If so, please explain why melba toast or soup/salad croutons made of very small pieces of actual bread are mezonos?
I know that eating less than a kzayis of bread does not need a brocha of al netilas yadayim when washing nor birchas hamazon after it. But it is still hamotzi, whereas melba toast or bread croutons are mezonos. Why?
If so, please explain why melba toast or soup/salad croutons made of very small pieces of actual bread are mezonos?
Those are mezonos because the fit the pas kisnin category of being crunchy.
I’m suggesting that when we evaluate whether or not a baked good is a “meal” or a “snack” we look at how people actually eat it.
What I am suggesting is that what you are suggesting is a classic chicken and egg argument.
By the way, R’ David Feinstein holds melba toast is hamotzi (heard from a rav who heard it from his mouth).
Those are mezonos because the fit the pas kisnin category of being crunchy
So you are saying that although a small piece of bread less than a kzayis needs a hamotzi as i mentioned above brought down in SA, but if you toast it it becomes mezonos? I dont think so.
(heard from a rav who heard it from his mouth)
Heard what from his mouth? The crunch? ☺
By the way, R’ David Feinstein holds melba toast is hamotzi (heard from a rav who heard it from his mouth).
Ok. I don’t even really know what melba toast is. I was thinking about stuff like bagel chips (he might also hold those are hamotzi, in which case I know that I have a different psak.)
So you are saying that although a small piece of bread less than a kzayis needs a hamotzi as i mentioned above brought down in SA, but if you toast it it becomes mezonos? I dont think so.
No, because then it was bread already.
No, because then it was bread already.
But so was the bagel chip you are talking about!
No, because my bagel chip was never made as bread. When it was baked, it was just a step in the bagel chip making process. That is why I make mezonos on bagel chips from a store, but hamotzi on bagel chips from a bagel store where they just chipped some of the bagels they had already made.
If people make hamotzi on all bagel chips, I’m guessing it is that they don’t believe the svara of the baking being a step in the bagel chipping.
Throw this into the mix: Syrian Jews wash and say hamotzei on matza only during Pesach. The rest of the year it’s mezonot.
So if elal incorporates “mezonos rolls” into their glatt kosher meal does that mean they’re chassidish?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.