Mezumin for girls

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  • #617642

    I read somewhere recently that it is not only halichacally allowed, but also a big mitzvah for 3 or more girls who are eating together to make a mizumun, I read that even one of the big gedolei hador had paskened that if there are 3 or more girls and less than 3 men the girls should still make a mizumun and the boys should answer amen.

    The reasons is stated no one does this is:

    1. We have been taught it’s a mans job such as havdalah and kiddush (but unlike those 2, we have many a chance in schools, camps, and more to gain more mitzvos when men aren’t around)

    2. The mizumun is written using the dikduk terms for a man in mst benchers as we would have to memorize or find out exactly the right words and way to say it

    Can anyone shed some light on this? And if it really is halachically allowed, can anyone find out how a girl like me should recite it?

    #1150147
    #1150148

    writersoul
    Member

    To address your second point, the wording is flexible. If you can say it in Yiddish, you can say it in lashon nekevah. I’ve heard of people saying “gevirosai/gevirotai nevarech”- and after that there are no dikduk issues that I can think of.

    I don’t personally do it because I’m just not accustomed, but I know people who do it this way. Definitely yesh al mi lismoch for women to do it.

    As far as the man’s job thing, women can make kiddush and havdalah as well- depending on the case, sometimes with an absolutely equal chiyuv to that of men which would mean that there is no reason for the man to davka be yotze the woman.

    #1150150

    takahmamash
    Participant

    BTW, it’s called a mizumenet.

    #1150151

    writersoul
    Member

    Actually, if you want to be really egal about it, it’s a zimun… πŸ™‚

    #1150152

    so this topic doesn’t seem to be problematic? yikes.

    maybe I should post that the women are making a mezuman on some stupid gebrockts they ate after being mattir neder to be rid of their problem.

    Now is it worth jumping on? Hello?

    #1150153

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Why would it be problematic?

    You may agree or disagree, but why would you have a problem with someone raising a good question?

    The ArtScroll Women’s Siddur states that women should not make a mezuman, although they should answer Amen when men make one. Practically speaking, I don’t know many women who would answer amen to a mezuman; I also don’t know why not.

    And as far as kiddush and havdala are concerned, why not? I have made kiddush and havdala many times and don’t really see a problem with it.

    #1150154

    What’s wrong with women making a zimun for themselves? It’s a b’feirushe din in Shulchan Aruch (O”C 199: 6) and I haven’t seen anywhere that there should be a problem.

    If anyone has a source otherwise, let’s hear.

    #1150155

    writersoul
    Member

    Women don’t answer amen to a men’s zimun? That’s VERY weird.

    #1150156

    Pashtus, al pi din they are mechuyavos to answer.

    Some rishonim (and the Vilna Gaon paskens this way) hold if three women eat together they are obligated to make a zimun, but we don’t pasken that way (see Biur Halachah).

    #1150157

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Women making havdalah may be a problem.

    #1150158

    SDD, correct. They only should if they can’t hear it (live, not on the phone) from a man.

    #1150159

    takahmamash
    Participant

    The ArtScroll Women’s Siddur states that women should not make a mezuman . . .

    Perhaps the ArtScroll Women’s Siddur is wrong? ArtScroll is not infallible, you know.

    #1150160

    In this case, the Biur Halachah (and possibly the Aruch Hashulchan) are misrepresented.

    #1150161

    I answer amen to guys mezumin and stuff.

    But how does it work, must you all wash and eat together?

    What if you are in school and girls are washing at various times during the break but a group of girls whom all ate in the same classroom want to make a mezuminet together, can they?

    #1150162

    Besides that my friend just told me although for men they need 3, women need 10. I heard women just need 3. Anyone know for sure? I really would like to start doing this.

    #1150163

    writersoul
    Member

    The number 10 only applies to a minyan, which is inherently male. It has no significance in this context for women. You only need three.

    #1150164

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shopping: Women need 3. 10 women do not say Elokeinu. See what DY quoted from the Shulchan Aruch above.

    #1150165

    Okay but how does it work, need you all eat together?

    #1150166

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shopping: The same way it works for guys. Three eat bread and Bench together. See the Shulchan Oruch OC 192(ish).

    #1150167

    But must you all wash at the same time? And sit at the same table…?

    #1150168

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shopping: Look up the Halachos of a Mezuman. It’s OC 192 in Shulchan Aruch and somewhere in the 40s in the Kitzur, I think. There are some relatively strong rules, but much of it is kinda subjective as to how to define “eating together”.

    #1150169

    mw13
    Participant

    DY – Do you know where this B”H is?

    #1150170

    Mw13, it’s on the Shulchan Aruch I mentioned earlier.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14164&st=&pgnum=189

    #1150171

    crispandrefreshing
    Participant

    i believe the aruch hashulchan says the minhag is not and gives a reason ay”s

    #1150172

    He does not say a reason, and it’s not clear that he means there’s a minhag not to, just that l’ma’aseh they didn’t. I think he may mean like the Biur Halachah that it’s not a requirement. He seems to be showing only that we don’t pasken like those Rishonim who do require it.

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7705&st=&pgnum=365

    #1497829

    Bringing this back up. I can’t find the source for women being allowed to. I looked in my kitzur shulchan oruch and I couldn’t find anything on it. I remember vividly seeing somewhere halochos on this, and seeing that even 3 women eat together with one or 2 men they should/have a chiyuv (can’t remember..) to make a mezumenet and the men have a chiyuv to answer amen.

    Anyone know anything of this?

    #1497832

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    In Shulchan Aruch O”CH 199:7 it states that women ‘can’ among themselves bentsh mezumin but are not obligated. If they eat together with men, they should also answer.

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