Milchig Meal on Shavuos

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  • #1729798

    laskern
    Participant

    תלמוד בבלי מסכת נדרים דף י עמוד א
    וכפר עליו מאשר חטא על הנפש. אמר אביי: שמעון הצדיק ורבי שמעון ור’ אלעזר הקפר, כולן שיטה אחת הן דנזיר חוטא הוי. שמעון הצדיק ורבי שמעון – הא דאמרן; ורבי אלעזר הקפר ברבי – דתניא, ר’ אלעזר הקפר ברבי אומר: וכפר עליו מאשר חטא על הנפש – וכי באיזו נפש חטא זה? אלא שציער עצמו מן היין, והלא דברים ק”ו: ומה זה שלא ציער עצמו אלא מן היין נקרא חוטא, המצער עצמו מכל דבר על אחת כמה וכמה! מכאן, כל היושב בתענית נקרא חוטא. והדין
    קרא בנזיר טמא כתיב! משום דשנה בחטא הוא.

    #1729800

    laskern
    Participant

    There happens to be a question about fasting on their own. See SA O’CH 571:1-2 is he sinning or becomes holy. People learning should not weaken themselves. When someone fasts a taanis chalom on shabbos, even though it is beneficial for him, he has to fast another fast.

    #1729839

    The little I know
    Participant

    RG:

    You are incorrigible. Staying up on Shavuos night is NOT a halacha. It is a minhag. The sifrei halacha can set normative practice according to their judgment, and they concluded that this means just the first night. You cannot accuse them of guiding people to be meikil! That is a baseless shmear on these poskim, all of whom could outdo you in learning any day. You can strain yourself to remain awake the second night if you please, and it might just earn you some Heavenly points. Those points will be lost by judging other Yidden who comply with normative halacha/minhag as deficient or wimping.

    One poster noted that Rav Elyashiv ZT”L did not stay up on Shavuos night at all. You would claim that he was mevatel a mitzvah, and that his doing so in order to function the rest of the Yomtov is hypocrisy. That chutzpah is unacceptable. Should you merit a visit to Eretz Yisroel, I would suggest you travel to Bnei Brak and visit his kever. You may ask mechila for suggesting that the Gadol Hador was a hypocrite.

    Lastly, there is a concept called לפנים משורת הדין. It has many applications. There is not a single one in which the individual who does not do the extra is considered “less than” or meikil. You can undertake whatever chumros you wish. But following normative halacha cannot be blasphemed to be called meikil.

    I will stop commenting on this, as you have made up your mind, and refuse to be confused by the truth.

    I should add that the nazir is kadosh, as noted in the psukim referenced above. But he also brings karbanos of חטאת ואשם, as his choice of פרישות was extreme. That is what is derived from the seemingly conflicting divrei Chazal.

    #1729885

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    RGP brings down rayes for what he’s saying. I’m not saying he isn’t twisting stuff, but he clearly isn’t an am haaretz, so explaining really beginner stuff to him like “staying up on Shavuos is not meakev” is not going to get you anywhere.

    He’s concealing the knowledge of certain basic facts on purpose to get you to spoon feed it back to him; you end up looking like the one with the simplistic arguments.

    The fake feminism has remained the most constant character trait of his account build. The inventing chumros by twisting halachos is a new one, and it’s interesting to see how quickly other posters forget what character he was playing just days before, and get fully immersed in his theme of the current thread. The egg chumrah thread, for example, was explicit in what it was doing from the beginning and was closed by mods. These recent ones are started in more subtle ways with more build up.

    #1729879

    Little, in one sentence you pointed out where we don’t see eye to eye: “Staying up on Shavuos night is NOT a halacha. It is a minhag.”

    You take a minhag yisroel and treat it like the custom of eating gefilte fish with chrein, while I know that
    “מנהג ישראל תורה היא” (the holy words of Tosfos, מנחות 20b. That a minhag is not “just a minhag” but it is TORAH!!

    That is where we diverge!

    You seem to think that halacha is important, but a mere minhag, feh, it can be trampled on, while I know that a minhag Yisroel is stronger than halacha, as halacha itself rules; “מנהג עוקר הלכה”

    Yom Tov Sheini is a “minhag” too. Do you teat it less than halacha too?!

    Staying up on Shavuos is a MINHAG YISROEL. It is not optional for someone to deide if h will or won’t follow this minhag.

    You mentioned Rav Eliyashiv z”l. a godol hador. Of course if someone is a choleh (ill, including elderly etc), dispensation is extended even on certain Hilchos Shabbos, but c”v for a healthy person to transgress on a shvus d’shvus, or amira l’akum – because a certain godol was allowed to do something when he was ill! Likewise if he has a dispensation from staying up Shavuos, is that a blanket hetter to discard minhag yisroel?!

    This is elementary, not some advanced talmudic discourse. Or as said: p’shita, “my ko mashma lon” (it is obvious, what is new in what she is saying?)

    As far as לפנים משורת הדין – there are standards which frum yidden keep. In kashrus we keep glatt kosher, and we do not use non-glatt meat. If someone frum uses non-glatt, that person is being MEIKIL from the standard practice of frum yidden, and indeed is “less than”! There are thousands of such “standards”, including dress codes of what is acceptable and what is “less than”.

    The problem I am shining my light on, and making people uncomfortable, is that many feel they are super-frum in sooo many areas. They live comfortably in this frummie bubble of superiority while slamming other frum yidden that have customs of not doing xyz (e.g. sleep in sukka, eat cake before davening etc).

    Yet, if I come and point my pin at their frummie bubble, showing them plenty of areas of being meikil or even going outright against halacha (as in Heicha kedusha), they freak and get bent out of shape, justifying, rationalizing and battling to remain on their frum perch which is being shaken.

    That is what this is all about. Are we really frum or do we just think we are frum because “those guys” don’t keep the chumra that I do?!

    #1729910

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Yet, if I come and point my pin at their frummie bubble, showing them plenty of areas of being meikil or even going outright against halacha (as in Heicha kedusha), they freak and get bent out of shape, justifying, rationalizing and battling to remain on their frum perch which is being shaken.”

    No,they get bent out of shape because you are lying, twisting Halacha, misrepresenting their arguments, defending potential kefira, yelling at people for things they didn’t say or believe, denigrate Gedolim, bad mouth Gedolim while pretending you aren’t, and did I say twisting Halacha? Yes, any good yid will tzitter on their perch when someone plays games with Halacha as you do.

    THAT’s what makes them uncomfortable. As it should. But *your* bubble seems to extend as far as your imaginary audience, leaving little room for authentic Torah and actual social interaction.

    As I’ve said before, refuah shlaima

    #1729985

    klugeryid
    Participant

    R Elyashiv זצ”ל did not sleep because he was ill
    He slept two hours every night of the year up to his final hospitalization. Learning every possible minute.
    He slept those same two hours on shavuos night because , it was יצא שכרו בהפסדו to stay up those extra two hours.same reason he ”wimped out ” on דאוונינג כותיקין
    אפרא לפומך

    #1730005

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, My father had a saying, every house has their own minhag. Respect all minhogim whether they follow yours or not, or יצא שכרו בהפסדו. This is the difference between halacha and minhag. מנהג ישראל תורה for those who follow the minhag and for others to respect them. The Chasam Sofer said minhag has the letters gehinam. Now I understand its ,meaning. People can end up in the gehinam when they look down on others minhogim.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  laskern.
    #1730015

    Milhouse
    Participant

    REALLY? Do ANY Chabd shuls cater to ANY other customs/practices of other Yidden mispallelim?!

    Example; Do they sing Akdomus (which is in the Nusach Ari Siddur but not said)? Do they say V’Shomru Frinday night (again it is in their Siddur)?

    Absolutely, if there are enough ballebatim who want it. Anim Zmiros too, if there’s enough demand. I’ve never heard of a Chabad shul that has leining on ST night, but that’s not all that common a custom, so there’s unlikely to be much demand for it.

    #1730023

    Milhouse
    Participant

    NC, where did you get the idea that I thought “achronim never hold that something in the S”A is a copier’s mistake?”

    But this is definitely NOT a copier’s mistake, or a typo, and there is no such “shita” that it is. The Ramo certainly does not say such a thing. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the Beis Yosef himself wrote it, and that he meant what he wrote when he wrote it. He didn’t simply write “milk” while thinking “meat”; he meant “milk”. The Ramo doesn’t call it a typo, he calls it a “thinko”. He says that the BY confused milk with meat; that he misremembered the danger of fish with meat, and temporarily thought it was about fish with milk.

    #1730021

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Neville
    Don’t be fooled for a moment
    As I posted before
    RGP is far from a תלמוד חכם
    It is a person with a decent Torah computer search engine and a rudimentary understanding of Hebrew.
    Coupled with a few controversies they have picked up on over the years.
    And I’ll prove it to you. (not to rgp you can’t prove that person anything)
    Why choose to attack not staying up on the second night of shavuos which requires convincing people that there is even a reason to do so, when he could have much more easily pointed out that most people don’t stay up all night after the seder ,something explicitly brought down, nor does a great portion of klal yisroel stay up all night הושענא רבא also something with a much greater. Basis.

    The answer is quite simple
    Rgp searched ‘staying up second night shavuos’ and ran with that.
    Didn’t have the mental faculties to realize or didn’t even have the knowledge that there are nights much more clearly brought to stay up, to ask from there
    Rgp is not a תלמיד חכם
    Rgp is a לץ, שוטה, מלעיג על דברי חכמים, ובעל מחלוקת

    #1730050

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, מנהג עוקר הלכה for the person keeping the minhag, as it is paskened that ספק ברכות להקל does not apply e.g. putting tefilin on chal hamoad.

    #1730065

    Milhouse – “REALLY? Do ANY Chabd shuls cater to ANY other customs/practices of other Yidden mispallelim?!
    Absolutely, if there are enough ballebatim who want it. Anim Zmiros too, if there’s enough demand.”

    Ok, I did a bit of FURTHER investigation. I called back some of the Chabad Shuls and asked EXPLICITLY: Do the Chabad mispalalim including the Chabad Rabbi participate in seuda shlishis (or is it just “outsiders” at the seuda shlishis)? Again, the unanimous reply was that “many Chabad mispallilim INCLUDING THE RABBI attend at the seuda shlishis”, the response was qualified, “not EVERYONE attends, but most mispallalim, both Chabad and non-Chabad attend”.

    These are the FACTS on the ground. Reality. BTW – I asked about Anim Zmiros and each Chabad Shul that I called said that it is not Chabad custom to say it so they don’t (but one is welcome to say it privately if that is his/her custom).

    #1730041

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Chavas Yair 126 from the Shlah Hakodash that the children don’t have to follow the chumros of the fathers.

    #1730087

    laskern
    Participant

    When it comes to publishing mistakes we find:

    תפארת ישראל כללי שמחות
    ומ”מ מותר האבל אחר ז’ לברך ברכת אירוסין ונשואין תחת החופה שבבית הכנסת, עכ”ל רמ”א. הנה מדכפל רמ”א ושילש בלשונו חופה שעושין בבית הכנסת על זה סמכו החדשים, אשר עליהן אנו בושין, אשר כל מגמתם לדמות אותנו למי שלא נוכל להדמות, ואמרו דש”מ דכך יפה לנו לעשות החופה בביה”כ. אמנם מלבד שיש איסור בדבר זה מכמה טעמים, שלא נאריך בהן כאן, הנה תלו א”ע בקורי עכביש, דכל מה שנזכר בדברי רמ”א כאן בית הכנסת, במקור מקומו טהור ליתא, לא בהג”ה מיי’ שהביאה רב”י, דשם נזכר בבית הנשואין וכ”כ בד”מ כתוב בפירוש ברחוב העיר. ונראה שטעות המדפיס הוא דהרי מימינו לא ראינו ולא שמענו נוהגין כן לעשות החופה תוך בית הכנסת, אלא שבשניהן היה כתוב בב”ה, ור”ל ר”ת בבית הנשואין, או בחצר בית הכנסת, שהוא רחוב העיר, וטעה המדפיס שברצותו מרחיב ברצותו מקצר, וכתב בבית הכנסת. ונכרין דברי אמת].

    #1730113

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Again, the unanimous reply was that “many Chabad mispallilim INCLUDING THE RABBI attend at the seuda shlishis”,”

    Notice the word “attend.” They don’t wash. Also, notice how none of the Chabad posters dissociate from RGP when he lies and twists stuff to defend Chabad. Every single Chabad poster here knows the minhag on seudah shlishis and could have ended this a long time ago.

    Kluger: I didn’t say he was a talmid chacham, but I don’t believe your theory is true either. It’s possible, but it seems a bit beyond google.

    #1730115

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Laskern, nobody disputes that the “bochur hazetzer” has been responsible for many mistakes. But this is not one of them. It is simply not possible to argue that the Beis Yosef did not really mean to write that there is a danger in eating fish with milk. What is arguable, and the Ramo does argue, is that he made a mistake, that he got confused, that he didn’t really hold this, and had anyone pointed out his mistake he would surely have corrected it.

    #1730184

    klugeryid
    Participant

    its not google
    its along the lines of אוצר החכמה

    #1730193

    Neville – last week my husband and I also “attended” at a restaurant for our anniversary. Guess that means we only sat there and looked at the walls. But why did the waiter give us a bill?

    #1730200

    klugeryid
    Participant

    FOR THE AMBIANCE

    #1730210

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Rebbetzin golden- you went to a restaurant? And by implication, you ate? What happened to kadeishatzmecha bemutat lach? Did youeat only bread and drink only water?

    #1730240

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    So that you could say you attended a restaurant and fool people on the CR into thinking you ate there.

    Again, there are plenty of posters who could clarify this Chabad minhag. They prefer to let RGP lie on their behalf.

    #1730203

    Neville – “notice how none of the Chabad posters disassociate from RGP when he lies and twists stuff to defend Chabad”

    Why would any Chabad want to disassociate themselves from their chief undercover agent who promotes their agenda and established minhagim of treating eggs as treif, women (and men) staying up both nights of shavuos, hallel with a brocha on YH etc. (some of my topics)?!

    #1730280

    TYomim – “you went to a restaurant? And by implication, you ate?”

    Well that is YOUR implication!

    Neville is medayek that if someone “attends” (as in “attends shalosh seudos”), the implication is that they did NOT eat.

    It follows l’shitoso:

    The misnaged is being me dan lkaf zchus, that I was poresh from ta’avos achilah: I was sur m’rah (refrained from bad).

    While the “Tomim” is judging me that I was mevarer netzutzos (elevated sparks to holiness), and made a dira b’tachtonim (a dwelling below for the Shchina), sh’ain tachton mimenu (at the lowest of places): assay tov (accomplished goodness).

    #1730290

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Tomim – great response!

    #1730397

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    So, in the classic tradition of all the tzorerim of klal Yisroel, rebbetzin golden maintains that when OTHERS engage in olam hazeh, they are oiver an issur deOraysa of kadeish atzmecha, but when SHE engages she’s doing the mitzvah of making a dirah batachtonim….

    She is takeh a ח’כם מ’ובהק ו’רב ר’בנן….

    In any case, you know why Lubavitchers dont eat bread by shalosh seudos? Ess Pas Nisht! :p

    #1731204

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    This is great. I don’t even know who is a “character-troll” and who’s real anymore.

    #1731243

    The trolls are trolling each other.
    לא כל הרוצה ליטול את השם יטול,
    Some are wanna be trolls , some are ‘character trolls but a few are the real deal.

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