April 11, 2014 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #612578
There seems to be this inyan that people buy milk and eggs before Pesach because of a chashash that there is a small amount of chometz in it. On Pesach we don’t use bitul b’shishim but beforehand we do. Therefore people will buy it before Yom Tov. I have heard of this done with milk and eggs but not anything else.
My question is, why don’t we use this idea of being mevatel before Pesach for other food? According to this, any regular Kosher food item that does not have chometz in the ingredients should be able to be bought before Yom Tov and be considered “kosher l’Pesach” through bittul. For example, rather than paying through the roof for “kosher l’Pesach yogurt”, just buy regular kosher yogurt before Pesach and rely on bittul. Does anyone do this and if not, why not? What is special about milk and eggs?April 11, 2014 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1011592charliehallParticipant
How can eggs have chametz?April 11, 2014 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1011593Davar KatanMember
Bitul issur lichatchila, not shishim, davar hamaamad, nosein taam. need I go on. people don’t buy things to be mivatel them on purpose, it’s a chumra. All part of the prepesach ocd/super hekpeida (depends who u ask the arizal or r dr twerski(; )April 11, 2014 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1011594April 11, 2014 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1011595
It’s not about a Chashash Chimutz. It’s a Gemara in Temurah (maybe Me’ilah) that a calf that grew up its entire life eating only Issurei Hana’ah is Treif (the Rishonim discuss a Zeh V’zeh Gorem issue and what if it eats both Tarfus and other stuff; there is also a strange Taz which extends it to all Ma’achalos Asuros, not just Issurei Hana’ah). So the issue is that if the cows and chickens eat Chametz, the milk and eggs could have a status of something that grew only because of Issurei Hana’ah. (And when something is Assur B’mashehu we say that Zeh V’zeh Gorem is Assur, so there’s that issue too. If you assume that the cow’s nourishment and body combine to produce the milk, which we Halachically do, then the milk that was produced because of nourishment from Chametz on Pesach should be Assur.)
We cannot be M’vatel Chametz before it becomes Assur because we hold that since Chametz is an Issur Mashehu, it’s Chozer V’neor on Pesach and becomes Assur, even if it’s .00001% of the mixture when Pesach starts. Eggs and milk are an entirely separate issue, as I explained above. The reason not all eggs and milk are Assur on Pesach is because since the Chametz was only a Zeh V’zeh Gorem and is completely gone without a trace before Pesach, then we say that it was completely gone was Pesach started, not just Batel.April 12, 2014 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1011596ChortkovParticipant
So what does it help to BUY it before Pesach? What has your ownership got to do with the status of the Chometz inside it? If it is (or WOULD be) Bottul, why should you need to buy it first?April 13, 2014 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1011597
yekke: It’s not Batel. It’s just a Gorem. It’s not Shayach to say Zeh V’zeh Gorem when both are Muttar (milk before Pesach). It’s only an issue of Zeh V’zeh Gorem on Pesach. It’s not about buying before Pesach. It’s about not buying milk that was milked on Pesach. So the first day of Chol Hamoed is fine also as long as you don’t live right next to a farm. You can also check the expiration date and if it expires on or right after Pesach, you know it was milked long before.April 13, 2014 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1011598
Davr katan wrote: “Bitul issur lichatchila, not shishim, davar hamaamad, nosein taam. need I go on. people don’t buy things to be mivatel them on purpose, it’s a chumra.”
Perhaps yogurt was a bad example for this question because of davar hamamad. I can’t think of a good example off-hand but any item where you can tell based on common sense and ingredients that there is no chametz more than shishim. Basically if you have something that has no chometz in it but is made in a plant that also makes chametz, the kashrus agencies won’t give it a pesach hashgacha. But limaysa, the only real chashash there is that a mashehu of chametz from another product will get in. Since nobody wants it there, it should not be an issue of being mivatel issur lichatchila. So why can’t you buy it before Pesach and rely on the bittul?
“people don’t buy things to be mivatel them on purpose, it’s a chumra.”
I guess that’s the answer I was looking for. There seems to be this inyan of being overly machmir when it comes to Pesach.April 13, 2014 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1011599
42: Did you not see my answer? Eggs and milk have nothing to do with Bittul L’chatchilah.
Also, concepts like Davar Hama’amid don’t matter to Chamezt because Chametz is Oser B’mashehu. It doesn’t matter if it’s there. So even if you don’t want something from the assembly line in your food, unless it’s actually Nosein Ta’am Lifgam then it becomes Assur and Bittul is irrelevant.April 13, 2014 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1011600apushatayidParticipant
The kitzur shulchan aruch mentions that some are nooheg not to drink the milk of cowss fed chametz on pesach. He doesn’t discuss the lomdus. Behind minhag but does write that chalila to be mevatel it.April 13, 2014 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1011601
Come to think of it, Davar Katan’s answer doesn’t answer my question. My premise was that we rely on bittul before Pesach for milk but not other things. So my question would stand, why are we makpid on bittul for other things and not milk/eggs?
Sam2 seems to answer this by saying that the milk and egg issue has nothing to do with bittul b’shishim.
I’m still not sure why it is that we don’t rely on shishim before Yom Tov but I guess that’s stam a chumra.April 13, 2014 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1011602
42: Chametz isn’t Batel B’shishim on Pesach. Why would it be Batel before? We say Chozer V’neor. By your logic, why not say Bittul B’rov?
That aside, Chametz before Pesach is a D’var Heter, not Issur. There is a significant number of Achronim (spearheaded by the Chochmas Adam) who hold that the whole concept of Bittul is never Shayach by Heter.April 13, 2014 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1011603
Sfardim hold of bitul b’shishim on Pesach. Ashkenazim hold that it is batul b’shishim before Pesach but not on Pesach itself. Chozer v’neir is only by yavesh. By davar lach we say that it is batul before Pesach and stays batel. I think this is the reason R’ Eider gave why some people buy milk before Yom Tov.April 13, 2014 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1011604–Participant
Sam2: What about meat? I don’t recall ever seeing that meat has to be bought, slaughtered, or even born before Pesach.April 13, 2014 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1011605
Dash: Someone asked R’ Schachter about that. I don’t remember the answer. I think it’s Pashut in the Mishnah, though, which only Assers a “B’heimah Shenispatma Kol Y’mei Chayeha Mei’Issurei Hanaa’h”.April 14, 2014 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1011606yitayningwutParticipant
We cannot be M’vatel Chametz before it becomes Assur because we hold that since Chametz is an Issur Mashehu, it’s Chozer V’neor on Pesach and becomes Assur, even if it’s .00001% of the mixture when Pesach starts.
You’re entitled to hold this way, but the mechaber (OC 447:4) cites an opinion that says chametz is batel before Pesach, and the Rema says that the minhag is to rely on this when the dealing with lach. Not only that, but the Mishna Berura says on the spot that if a dry item fell into a mixture 60 times its size, you may cook it l’chatchila before Pesach until it dissolves and thereby becomes lach and batel, and then eat it on Pesach. Therefore, people buying their non-certified yogurt that was manufactured before Pesach are certainly resting on large shoulders.
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