Million Man March

Simcha, you seem to hold a lot of anger. Could be?

Simcha613: You are wrong. This is not a lack of hakaras hatov. Even the Hesder Yeshivas understand the problem. The Rosh Yeshiva of the Sderot Hesder Yeshiva is joinging this protest; he said that after they finish going after the Chareidi boys, they will come for the Hesder Boys as well. This is about people in power who hate HaShem and hate Torah and want to see a “Jewish State” with no Torah at all.

Im jealous of the Bnei Torah they are listening to their Rabbanim, no different than Moshe Rabbeinu saying מי לה׳ עלי and all of shevet Levi join him

Simcha: The Zionists army deserves no hakoros hatov whatsoever. The Zionists triggered the last 75+ years of constant and endless wars and terrorism. They set the bed. Now they want those who aren’t responsible for their terrible problems to fix it for them. Let them fix it themselves.

@Yaakov Yosef A
The core issue here is that “hishtadlus” does not permit גילוי עריות and going OTD.

Thats a huge exaggeration. Firstly there are tons of very frum ehrlicha groups in ethe IDF where non of this occurs. Just look around and you’ll see. Loom at them daven and learn in Gaza. Ask r Asher Weiss about the shaIlas he gets from them like how to put in teflin with no arms and you’ll cry. Second. those that go OTD especially charerdim were generally on their way before they joined. So its like what came first the chicken or the egg?

They are out to “bring the Chareidim into the Israeli mainstream”, which is dog whistle language for OTD.
Or maybe its just a dog whistle to say, do like we do in America. We work with goyim and shiksas too. We also “mainstream” but stay strong with our yiddishkiet too, whats wrong with that?

why don’t the Chilonim who don’t like the army go become Chareidim?
Thats not a question. Its hard to become frum if use to being a chiloni just to get out of the army. But if you are always frum and just want to balme yeshiva on it yes thats an easy way out

rabbi zvi tau who is a well known dati leumi rabbi told his student to attend the atzeres – i guess he doesn’t think its a lack of hakoras hatov being that he sends his students to serve in the idf

Chaim87 – Gedolei Yisroel don’t agree with you. That is why they are opposed to joining.

Everyone currently Chareidi I know who served in the IDF (including many Baalei Teshuvah) also don’t agree with you.

Even many honest RZ who I know also don’t agree with you. The difference in Shittah with RZ is mainly how much risk/damage is “acceptable” to “pay the price” for the fake Geulah. Many of those RZ who don’t accept the secular State as “Geulah” are also in line with the Chareidim on this issue. There is also a political action group of wives of RZ servicemen who try to remedy the גילוי עריות situation in the IDF.

You said – “Firstly there are tons of very frum ehrlicha groups in ethe IDF where non of this occurs. Just look around and you’ll see. Loom at them daven and learn in Gaza. Ask r Asher Weiss about the shaIlas he gets from them like how to put in teflin with no arms and you’ll cry. Second. those that go OTD especially charerdim were generally on their way before they joined. So it’s like what came first the chicken or the egg?”

Your Saifa shlugs up your Raisha. If the matzav there is so Ehrliche, so why do davka those with one foot out the door run there? No one said there are NO Ehrliche people there, but the general matzav is decidedly not conducive to that, to put it mildly. There were heartbreaking shailos of Mesirus Nefesh from soldiers conscriptied to the Russian Army and other goyish armies. During the Russo-Japanese War of 1906 and WWI there were in fact “tons of very frum ehrlicha groups” forced in there. That doesn’t mean that the Russian Army is a place for a frum boy. (There also were no girls in the army then, which is the real issue now.)

בכלל, the whole line of reasoning you use is krum. Yosef Hatzaddik went through terrible nisyonos and emerged greater than he ever would have been had he not been there. So send every Joe to endure such nisyonos, because you CAN remain ehrliche if you really want… כמה יוסף איכא בשוקא?

Next item – “Or maybe it’s just a dog whistle to say, do like we do in America. We work with goyim and shiksas too. We also “mainstream” but stay strong with our yiddishkiet too, whats wrong with that?”

First of all, halevai that all the chevra in America who “work with goyim and shiksas too” should themselves be Ehrliche. From reading the comments on YWN, which is already a filtered space, you can easily see the טמטום הלב in action. Where do you think that comes from? They didn’t get their krum hashkafos from the Yeshivos they went to back in the day. Second of all, which is really first of all, a workplace is something one joins of his own volition, and can choose to leave if the matzav gets too problematic. An army by definition is not like that. The relationship between a commanding officer and his soldiers is not like that of a boss and his employees. Also, a normal boss typically is not interested in pushing an ideological agenda, the IDF most certainly is.

The bottom line, which was also the opening line.- this is up to the Gedolei Yisroel to decide. I see how strong YOU are in your Yiddishkeit by your total disregard for that, so please don’t teach us how to “stay strong with our yiddishkiet”.

Rav Sternbuch yesterday:

“Regarding the prayer gathering [to be held tomorrow]. It is truly a mitzvah for everyone to help the campaign. Hashem will help everyone who sanctifies the Divine Name. They want to completely uproot us, to show that we are like beggars, nothing. And we will show [them] that we do indeed have power. And besides that, our strength also stems from the fact that Hashem is with us. Therefore, if someone does not participate, he shows that he holds the Kingdom of Heaven in contempt. Everyone should make an effort to come, and he will have a great mitzvah and enjoy great salvation, and he will see that the hand of G-d is exalted. Whoever helps us with this, will enjoy success with G-d’s help”.

A few days ago, Rav Sternbuch said that the mitzvah of obliterating Amolek is an absolute obligation mide’oraiso. We are obligated to protest because they want to uproot us. And when certain elements tried to present arguments as to why one should not participate in the gathering, Rav Sternbuch said that it is forbidden to be poresh from the tzibbur.

@AAQ

… you should also understand that the self-serving cries of Torah using non-truthful loshon is not answering the questions people have.

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its not self serving – its HKBH serving

its easier to blend , enlist and get a well paying job afterwards

its easier to turn into dati leumi

then to be stuck in this “black” mindset

nevertheless

they forego normal living and are happy to live bedachkut

thats not self serving – that HKBH serving

——

its not ‘questions’ which people have

its ‘terutsim’ which people have

those people cannot bear to live that way

and therefore have to find fault with the haredim

and like rav chaim brisker famously commented

“I can supply answers to questions

but I cannot supply answers to teirutsim ….. ”
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@chaim

it is clear that the yeshiva bachur when put in a forced framework like the army , experiences a yerida .

even if , and that’s not a given , if people do learn there and do daven there ,

that does not mean that they are not experiencing a yerida .

the intent of the left wing crooks who sit on the plum chairs in the court rooms and legal offices is simple

they want to remake our future educators and our future heads of households

closer to their own image

only a fool or a liar would argue against that

which in turn will guarantee the following generation

to be modified even further

even a thousand heart warming stories about mesirut nefesh on behalf of the soldiers

will not change these stark facts

this is a battle of wills

they can take away subsidies , illegally kidnap our youth , and harrass innocents on our streets

but they will never break our resolve

ki am kshei oref hu …..
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If the Israeli could assemble a million male adult Hareidim, they could elect 40+ members of the Kenesset and probably take control, or at least be able to block the anti-Torah camp from enacting legislation.

akuperma: i had the same exact thought. i went back to look how many votes likud received in the last election. it was 1.1 million. the charedim got around 700,000 and the RZ (many of whom stand with the charedim) got about 500,000. Shas, Gimmel and RZ/Otzma received 1.2 million votes and 36 seats. The problem is that the High Court and AG stand in the way of the democratic process. in other words it is not legislation from the anti-torah camp that needs to be blocked. it supra-democratic bodies that are suppressing and quashing the will of the people.

most israelis know what the solution is: allow anyone who wants to learn to learn and draft all charedim who are not learning. while many chareidi leaders will not say it out loud (perhaps in order to gain leverage), they all secretly agree that this is the solution. if democracy was allowed to work, that is what we will get.

mycommentsforfree> doesn’t know of what Torah and Mitzvos mean
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sadly, some participants (a minority, but quite a number of them including not just those sitting on the unfinished building but those on an explosive petrol station and on the road sign towards Mt Herzl beit kvurot) – did not learn chumash up to the mitzva of protecting the roof. They definitely should stay in yeshiva until they learn that, they are not ready for the tzahal, danger to others.

AAQ – If you are smarter than all of the Gedolei Yisroel, you should be able to figure it out yourself.

On that note, seeing as all three major Rabbinical boards in Israel, as well as their colleagues in the US, all seem to disagree with you, so why not gather together a group of such august luminaries as yourself, simcha613, Kuvult, chaim87, anon1m0us, and the rest of the YWN peanut gallery, and start a new Moetzes? Together you can guide Klal Yisroel on the Derech Hayashar that all of the Gedolim have, nebech, forgotten.

akuperma:
The Zionists would never allow that. No matter how many religious Jews would be members of their parliament, that “State” is Zionist, and that is their greatest priority. As the Zionists stated all the way back, better Zionism and no State rather than a State without Zionism.

YYA > and start a new Moetzes

Thanks for the suggestions. That is exactly what R Soloveitchik had to do – he was in the early Moetzes and then quit to start different organizations.

Look at this debate – it is enough for one minor event (demonstration) lead to people putting away niceties and start putting statements saying that the other side is against the Torah. If you wait until your emotions subside – we seemingly had a lot of discussions to understand arguments on both sides, some valid, some not. If we are not able to continue this discussion based on one demonstration, this is not a good sign.

yankel> the intent of the left wing crooks who sit on the plum chairs in the court rooms and legal offices is simple

you are making it into a battle against left-wing. Look at the core problem. See discussion between Hashem and Yona about the kikayon – a simple example that Hashem cares about all humans and life… Charedim are citizens of Medinat Yisrael with an elected government where they are represented. The country has laws, elected officials. It has legitimate defence needs that are often fulfilled by something close to an open nes. You can vote and then follow the laws. If laws present challenges – you deal with them. We lived thru Persian empire, Roman empire, hoily roman empire, russian empire … we did not rebel because we were put in ghettoes, we deal with that and tried to influence the decision makers when possible. We did not cry to Hashem – we can’t learn Torah because Russian Czar is not providing us with childcare. Mittele Rebbe was learning while sitting with a baby (and got reprimanded by his father Alter Rebbe for not paying attention to the baby crying).

AAQ: RJBS was never a member of the Moetzes.

AAQ – We did not cry to Hashem – we can’t learn Torah because Russian Czar is not providing us with childcare.

(Aside from the fact, as has been explained to you ad nauseam, that this isn’t “just” about learning, this is about “integrating the Chareidim into Israeli society” = OTD shmad = ייהרג ואל יעבור. If and when this will really be about the operational needs of the IDF, the brass will have to choose between secular/progressive ideology and operational needs, they can’t have both.)

We sure did cry to Hashem when the Russian Czar drafted Jewish boys to his army. And we did every shtick in the book to get out of that, legally or otherwise. By the way, the Russian Army back then believed in Hashem in some form, prioritized the safety of their own soldiers before that of enemy civilians, and did not draft girls…

The Russian Czar provided no one with subsidized childcare… Those few rights Russian citizens sometimes had were often denied to Jews. That is called discrimination. Israel provides more rights and benefits to its citizens… Continuing to provide those same benefits to Arabs (who don’t usually serve in the IDF) but specifically not to Chareidim, is also a form of discrimination.

Hashem cares about everyone, more than they care about themselves. That doesn’t stop Him from doing things you and I don’t always understand. Gedolei Yisroel care about everyone more than you and I do. That doesn’t stop them from taking the course they are taking now. Why do you think that is so?

YYA> this is about “integrating the Chareidim into Israeli society” = OTD shmad = ייהרג ואל יעבור. If and when this will really be about the operational needs of the IDF, the brass will have to choose between secular/progressive ideology and operational needs, they can’t have both.

as I answered before, I understand your reservations. I am simply proposing that you [as a community] acknowledge that you are citizens of the country and continue hammering at realistic conditions that you need to join. What stops you from organizing units engaged in activities that are reasonably kosher – cyber-security, for example or tank drivers. Get a group of students prepared and offer coming to IDF as a unit. If they refuse, unless you allow yichud in a tank – then shoin.

YYA> Gedolei Yisroel care about everyone more than you and I do. That doesn’t stop them from taking the course they are taking now.

Look, from studying these issues, it is clear that there are multiple legitimate views, and multiple communities that had different legitimate attitudes. I think you agree with this. I can’t tell who is right (and most likely each group is sometimes right, or all are right for certain people, under certain conditions).

But I know for sure who is not right – those who (on either side) claim that their position is Torah Moshe l’Sinai and the opposite are apikoresim. I am afraid this camp is pretty large.

A recent anecdote – I attended recently several lectures by an inspiration and very cheerful speaker. I noticed that his speech was very charedi when listeners were mostly charedim, but when the listeners were less insular, he would show his feelings towards IDF and other non-charedi things. I was not sure where he actually stands until this: he made an interesting drush, and I came up to him after, thanked for an interesting idea and suggested an idea from R Soloveitchik that has an implication that supports his drush. He suddenly stopped his cheerful smile and replied “I had older sources” and turned away. So much for love of Toirah.

AAQ – OK, OK, even as you are going overboard with Russian army caring of soldier safety …

Sure they cared about the safety of their own soldiers more than they cared about their enemy’s civilians, as does the US Military, and every army worldwide except for the IDF.

So, maybe time for the bayonets in yeshovos.

Been there, done that, in the time of Chizkiyahu Hamelech. Not feasible at present.

YYA> If ALL the Gedolim

a true scotsman argument. The closer it is to our times, the harder it is to judge. So, I was looking as far as we can when the “modern” issues were already discussed. This is what often discuss here – first half of 20th century. I find the argument that R Kook, R Soloveichik, Lubavitcher Rebbe are as much talmidei chachomim as others of that generation. There is also enough evidence that at least some of more universally recognized talmidei chachomim, like R Feinstein, recognized the above. We had discussions here. I think we agree on this.

If they all were to sit in a Sanhedrin, they might be bound by rules of majority. Whatever the sins of our generations are, we do not have such a body. Thus, any of these T’Ch are a legitimate opinion. It is, of course, very tempting to fake “daas Torah” and simply follow a gadol that corresponds to your liking or who supports whatever you are doing. It is a difficult question for everyone. Some people are more self-aware than others in this …

For me, personally, I always suspected that I have a “modernishe” bias. For that reason, I was trying to learn only classical sources, not seriously learning any modernishe seforim, although I heard some of the shitos, of course. I started reading R Soloveitchik in depth relatively recently and found that many conclusions I came to are similar or parallel to his. This is not a proof that I am not biased, just a proof that I worked on my bias.

YYA> If ALL the Gedolim agree wall to wall on something

I have a cute “mathematical” proof here.

Axiom: when all gedolim of one generation gather on one street of Yerushalaim and daven together, Moschiach will come [anybody knows the gemora page? It might be in Sanhedrin. I heard it from R Steinsaltz where he explained it tongue-in-cheek: we do not understand this gemora right – it is only when Moschiach comes, all gedolim will gather together …]

Fact “all gedolim” according to you gathered together. Moschiach seemingly did not come. Ergo, not all gedolim came.
QED

Another possible explanation – they gathered, but did not daven together. I am told that they decided to have tehilim instead of speeches, because there was no one agreed speech, as groups vary widely in the political terms.

PS One of my kids was asked to “daven to support gedolim” and say tehilim at the time of the march. Most kids were clueless what this was about, my kid was not brave enough/did not think it is appropriate to leave the room. Instead, he said tehilim for the refuah shleimah of hostages. Tehilim unite us …

AAQ – Your argument is a “Straw Man Argument”, Scottish or otherwise. When all three Moetzes, plus the Eidah, plus Rav Thau and a few RZ for good measure, all agree on THE CORE ISSUE, even if they disagree on political details etc., so you have a VERY SOLID CONSENSUS of Torah leaders. Don’t tell me stories about deceased Gedolei Yisroel from decades ago. Tell me why you feel entitled to disagree with ALL the above Gedolei Yisroel.

Russian military tactics aren’t really relevant to the conversation. Did the Czar draft girls?