Minhag Overrides General Halacha

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  • #1491523

    Joseph
    Participant

    From @geordie613

    Minhagim don’t come from gedolim or chashuve rabonim. They are passed down in mesorah in a family. It has been said, the mishna berura was written for baalei tshuva and geirim, who follow the strict halocha. If someone has a minhag which is ‘oisgehalten’ (based on a solid source i.e. not a minhag shtus) then it is preferable to the generally paskened halacha.

    #1491651

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Respectfully disagree…..many minhagim ARE attributable to the practice of a rav in a particular community. I was a guest a shul for a family simcha and at one point in the davening , all the regular mispallalim started hocking on their sthenders and backs of the benches in front of them at a certain point in the davening in a way I’ve never experienced or seen done elsewhere. it was explained to me that this was the minhag of the shul’s prior rav that was continued after he was niftar and a new rav was hired. Sure, there are many minhagim that are family-specific especially those related to what is eaten at sedudos on certian yom tovim but many are practices of a Rav that all his chassidim or followers adopt.

    #1491719

    Toi
    Participant

    whadhapenamypost??

    i don’t see one missing

    #1491736

    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor, once a rebbe went to light the chanukkia and saw abroom near it. He decided to take it away befioe his chassidim saw and made a minhag. He took it away, they saw and made a minhag that there must be a broom near the chanukkia and it must be removed (see Baba Metzia 36a regarding misconceptions of talmidim).

    #1491772

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a story of the Chasam Sofer who asked his talmidim, what do you use to clean up the room? They looked all over the Shulchan Aruch and they could not find an answer. A young boy got up and said with a broom. Sometimes we have to you common sense to answer a question.

    #1491797

    GAON
    Participant

    FYI – The MB himself had minhagim not like the psak in MB.

    #1491798

    laskern
    Participant

    The gemora Pesochim 42:1 tells a story of Rav Masneh who darshened that you can only bake matzoh from מים שלנו. They miss-understood his intention and thought that he is saying that they can only bake matzoh from his water. So, they all came to him asking for water. He told them I meant water resting over night. The gemora is telling us to learn the great trust they had in their sages. They did not question, what makes your water better than our water?

    #1491800

    bp27
    Participant

    The OP specifically referred to minhagim that have a clear basis in Halacha, which are the vast majority of minhagim. Of course, such minhagim should continue to be followed irrespective of what is stated in Mishna Berura. If I am not mistaken there is a story with the Chofetz Chaim himself who did something contrary to what he wrote in MB, and when asked he said that that he was doing as his father did.

    #1491824

    laskern
    Participant

    The RMA O”CH 690:17 says that we should not eliminate any minhogim. There is a reason why they were instituted.
    The Chasam Sofer says that מנהג are the reverse letters for גהנם.

    #1491821

    adocs
    Participant

    GH,

    Why did the rav bang on the shtender?

    #1491863

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    “The gemora Pesochim 42:1… is telling us to learn the great trust they had in their sages. They did not question, what makes your water better than our water?””

    I didn’t see where any meforshim learn that from the gemora. Sounds like it’s your personal diyuk, and isn’t muchrach, because:
    1. How do you know they weren’t a bunch of amaratzim who didn’t think to ask, and why should we learn from amaratzim?
    2. Where do we find an issur in asking “why”?
    3. Anyone nowadays would ask “why”, so we obviously don’t hold like what you’re saying the gemara means, which it doesn’t mean that anyway.
    4. emunas chachomim doesn’t mean we don’t ask why we do something

    #1491868

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Avi, I’m pretty sure that story is supposed to be about the Brisker Rov, not a Chassidishe Rebbe. Also, it seems to be universally considered a myth.

    #1491885

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Recently the Dishu Mishna Berurah was learning the halchos of havdala. The question arose as to whether one looks at his fingernails in the candle before or after making the brocha. It is a mahlokes poskim. The Chazon Ish made the brocha first and then looked at his fingernails as that was the way it was done in his father’s house.

    #1492059

    laskern
    Participant

    Rebbe Yid, According to you, what is the purpose to tell the story?

    #1493852

    yitzyk
    Participant

    Last week I said the Selichos of Yom Kipper Kotton, and when saying the Viddui portion, I remembered a question that comes to my mind every year on Erev Yom Kipper. We say “That which you Assered, I was Mattir, and that which you were Mattir, I Assured. Where you were Lenient, I was Stringent, and where you were Stringent, I was Lenient.” Since I am not a Posek, and certainly not purposely twisting the Halacha, when does this apply?

    That night, in middle of the night, the answer occurred to me. Some people might have Minhagim that are the opposite of Halacha – whether it is L’Kullah or L’Chumra.

    #1493878

    Joseph
    Participant

    A legitimate minhag is certainly not what the vidui is referring to.

    #1493930

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a story where a rabbi in his drosha said that because of the destruction of the temple, Hashem cannot enjoy the sacrifices as He used to. A man heard this, goes home and asks his wife to bake two challas and he put it in the aron hakodesh. When the poor shamash saw this, he took it home. The man came back and saw that it disappeared. He thought that Hashem took it. Eventually the story came to the rabbi who wanted to see what is going on. He saw how the shamash was taking the chalas. He went and told the man, do you think Hashem needs your chalas? In a dream it was revealed to the rabbi, that since he disrupted the man’s deed, he must pass on before his time. Hashem didn’t enjoy anything as much as these chalas since the destruction of temple because it came from a full heart.

    • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 8 months ago by  laskern.
    #1493966

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: The Rabbi in the story was the Arizal.

    #1493978

    laskern
    Participant

    There was another story where a man did not know how to pray, so he whistled. It was praised how this whistling was accepted above because it came from the full heart. רחמנא ליבא בעי what comes from the heart is the most important.

    #1494018

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, in yeshivot they say that a goy whistles. A Jew does not whistle. There is, in fact, a counter-story. Somebody went to the rav after Shacharit on Rosh Chodesh and told him of the fantastic spiritual experience he had. the rav asked if he said “Yaaleh v’Yavo”. He replied that he had not and the rav told him that he had to daven again as he was not yotzeh.

    #1494128

    laskern
    Participant

    What does that have to do with a Yeshiva boy? We are talking about a young man at the time of the Baal Shem Tov, who never learned how to daven and did the whistling on his own.

    #1494261

    The little I know
    Participant

    I question the premise of “minhag overrides halacha”. There are situations in which the significance of minhag is greater than that of halacha. But overrides? For this, there needs to be a halachic opinion or precedent. This can then alter the process of reaching a conclusion to psak, being based on a particular minhag.

    Let me give a few examples. One is attributed to the Chasam Sofer, and it is said that this is published (I would appreciate a citation). There was a shul in a nearby city that had a few peculiar “minhagim”. One was that when passing the center of the shul, one would bow his head. Another was that when they recited בריך שמיה prior to taking out a Sefer Torah, everyone would turn to face the back of the shul. The legend goes that the Chasam Sofer did his due diligence and discovered that the shul, prior to renovation, had had a beam on the ceiling, requiring the passer by to lower his head to not bump into it. Similarly, prior to renovation, the rear wall of the shul had a mural with the text of בריך שמיה. Since many lacked a Siddur, they would turn to face it to say that tefiloh.

    Common practice does not equate with Minhag. It is quite possible that to assume that something is a minhag could be problematic. We cannot create our own minhagim. And it is possible that something becomes common practice (colloquially called minhag) but is an error. For the latter, there is a reference from a Tosafos on the first amud of Bava Basra.

    So I wonder where Minhag takes precedence to Halacha.

    #1494342

    laskern
    Participant

    If you want to know Avi K that the repetition of shacharis shamonei esrei because of Yaaleh V’yova only applies to an individual but the shaliach tzibur does not repeat it because he still has musaf when rosh chodesh will be mentioned and we don’t want to put an extra effort on the tzibur.

    #1494478

    laskern
    Participant

    About a Minhag see the RMA 690:17 ואין לבטל שום מנהג או ללעוג עליו כי לא לחינם הוקבעו we should not eliminate any minhag or laugh over it because they were not for nothing instituted, See the Baer Hetev there in great detail.

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