Minhagim After The Original Reason Is Gone

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  • #1489721

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Most people who don’t eat gebrokts don’t think that it could become chometz.

    #1490051

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I often wonder how people can mock the practices of other religions yet defend the absolute adherence to mimhagim even after the original reason is gone. Just because we used to do something ( that was not halachic ) is not a valid reason to keep doing it

    #1490275

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Minhag Avoseinu B’yadeinu. Eample – Yom Tov Sheini Shel Galiyus.

    #1490298

    akuperma
    Participant

    Actually, the reason people who don’t eat gebrokts is the feat that there is some uncooked piece of flour buried away inside the matza and it could get wet and not eaten within 18 minutes. Nothing much has changed that affects this. It’s as much a problem as it was several millenia ago.

    #1490460

    laskern
    Participant

    The reason we keep two days of yom tov is gone but we say ืžื ื”ื’ ืื‘ื•ืชื™ื ื• ื‘ื™ื“ื™ื ื•. The Chasan Sofer interprets that the strength of following a minhag is so great that it can break a bad ruling from above. The word ื”ืžืœื›ื•ืช in ื“ืœืžื ื“ื’ื–ืจื• ื”ืžืœื›ื•ืช ื’ื–ื™ืจื” ื•ืืชื™ ืœืงืœืงืœื™ can also refer to the heavenly court.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    #1490603

    laskern
    Participant

    You might want to look at Tosfas Betza 6:1 starting ื•ื”ืื™ื“ื ื.

    #1490606

    laskern
    Participant

    The fear for the second day yom tov can still apply. If the government makes a ruling that you must count months after the sun and not after the moon.

    #1490710

    Avi K
    Participant

    There was a shul where they had a “minhag” to dip every time they passed a certain point during the hakafot. When the new rav investigated he discovered that once there had been a low-hanging chandelier there.

    #1490767

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Laskern,
    You’re joking, right?

    #1494647

    laskern
    Participant

    See the RMA 690:17 and the Baer Hetev there in great detail.

    #1494886

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    We have a custom to not observe obsolete minhagim whose origin is no longer relevant due to changed circumstances.

    #1494890

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: Then why do we have Yom Tov Sheini?

    #1494914

    unommin
    Participant

    Complete misunderstanding of what a minhag is. It’s not voodoo. It’s not a law. It’s the custom where you are. You don’t walk into someone else’s town and tell them how to live. That’s why we should be careful about defining anything as a common custom.

    #1494912

    adocs
    Participant

    ืดItโ€™s as much a problem as it was several millenia ago.ืด

    The odds of this happening with our thin cracker matzos is infinitesimally low.

    The odds of this happening with machine matzos is close to impossible.

    #1494967

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    iacisrmma

    Chazal bring down that having a Yom Tov Sheini is a reasonable compromise between having only one day of yom tov and three days of yom tov, nothwithstanding uncertainty on solar/lunar calendar dates. They also note the upheaval in the heimeshe community if we were to reduce moed by one day from four to three to make up for the additional day of yom tov

    #1495005

    Meno
    Participant

    Chazal bring down that having a Yom Tov Sheini is a reasonable compromise between having only one day of yom tov and three days of yom tov

    But if there’s no issue of sfeikah d’yomah then there’s no need for a compromise at all.

    #1495006

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: Please bring your source so I can look this up myself. I have never heard this explanation for maintaining Yom Tov Sheini when we have a fixed calendar.

    #1495023

    laskern
    Participant

    See MB 496 in the beginning about Yom Tov Sheni. It is a ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื‘ืžื ื™ืŸ ืฆืจื™ืš ืžื ื™ืŸ ืื—ืจ ืœื”ืชื™ืจื• once it was forbidden by count, we need as great chachomim to permit it.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    #1495090

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: Same with kitniyos.

    #1495102

    laskern
    Participant

    See the RMA 453 and the Mordechai 588. They forbade anything called legume.

    #1495110

    catch yourself
    Participant

    1. The Vilna Gaon famously states that Chazal always had multiple reasons for a Minhag, some of which they may have had some reason for concealing from us, and that therefore we may not unilaterally determine that a Minhag is no longer applicable. Obviously, this would only apply to Minhagim that are certified by Chazal. [As I have had to point out to skeptics many times, this is not at all far-fetched; both as a parent and as an educator I do this all the time.]

    2. In the specific case of Yom Tov Sheini, Rav Hirsch explains at length that this Minhag preserves for us the true character of our Yamim Tovim, which would be lost if we were to observe only one day of Yom Tov. Check his commentary to Parashas HaChodesh [Shemos 12].

    3. We should not be so arrogant as to assume that we fully understand the basis for a Minhag without extensive research, much less should we assume the authority to revoke a Minhag as obsolete. There are many stories of Rabonim who declared certain Minhagim to be Minhag Shtus, only to learn the hard way why they were wrong, corroborating this idea. [One excellent example, which I think has already been mentioned in the CR, involves the Rema and the Minhag in Cracow to say Mazal Tov after leil tevila.]

    #1495114

    laskern
    Participant

    Potatoes were not available at the time of the prohibition in Europe even if it is considered a legume.

    #1495119

    GAON
    Participant

    All comparing YT Sheini to the minhag of Gerokts is A”H.

    How can you can compare something that was implemented by Bes Din and accepted by all Klal Yisrael ื•ืคืฉื˜ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื‘ื›ืœ ื™ืฉืจืืœ (see ืจืžื‘”ื ื”ืœื›ื•ืช ืžืžืจื™ื ื‘) nothing can override that status of a Minhag. Gebrokts is just a Chumrah that some accepted AS A CHUMRAH – not as a Halcha.
    I’m not implying to say it is muttar if your minhag is to be makpid, however, Hetoros Nedarim via a Rav certainly can help. (e.g you are by in-laws that do etc) in any case, the comparison is off.

    #1495124

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, neither was corn but everyone considers it prohibited. Many also prohibit soya and canola oil (even though the canola plant is poisonous and thus cannot be considered part of the minhag – and this besides the questionable nature of prohibiting oils).

    #1495126

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Just like the conservative Trumpkopfs are insisting that every new law or regulation should have a “sunset provision” that means it disappears in 5-10 years if not affirmatively reconsidered and renewed by Congress,, perhaps we should consider imposing a sunset provision on all minhagim so they terminate every 100 years unless renewed by the gadolim of the current generation based on whether it is still “relevant”.

    #1495145

    Avi K
    Participant

    As for Yom Tov Sheini, the Yerushalmi says (Eruvin 3:9) that it is a punishment for not keeping Yom Tov properly in EY. This year (5778) it is three days four times (Rosh haShana, Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret all followed by Shabbat and Shabbat followed by Shevuot).

    #1495175

    laskern
    Participant

    They consider potatoes as the ื—ื™ื™ ืื“ื but canola like olive oil, soya and corn we can avoid.

    #1495194

    laskern
    Participant

    The Magen Avraham asks the question that the mitzva of sefira is to show our anticipation for Kabolas Hatorah, but it was given on the second day of Shavuos which is really the fifty first day of sefira? He answers that this implies Yom Tov Sheni Shel Golias. The Torah was given to know how to live in diaspora as it says ืฉื ืชื”ื ืงื‘ื•ืจืชื›ื there in golias when the only thing that teaches us is the Torah. In Eretz Yisroel, if we were holy enough, we would have understood the Torah on our own like the avos kept the Torah in Eretz Yisroel before it was given.

    #1495225

    GAON
    Participant

    Las – See Meshech Chachmah (Parshas Bo) another reason why we really keep two days:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=54978&st=&pgnum=116

    ื•ื‘ื–ื” ื™ืฆื ืœื ื• ื˜ืขื ื ืคืœื ืขืœ ื”ื ื“ืงืืžืจ ื”ื’ืžืจื ื”ื–ื”ืจื• ื‘ืžื ื”ื’ ืื‘ื•ืชื™ื›ื ื’ื–ื™ืจื” ื“ื™ืœืžื ืืชื™ ืœืงืœืงื•ืœื ื“ื”ื› ืงืฉื” ื’ื ื‘ื—”ืœ ื’ื ื‘ื”ื™ ื™ื”ื™’ ืœื”ื ื“ื™ืŸ ืื—ื“ ื“ื’ื ื‘ื”ื™ ืฉื™ื™ืš ื”ืื™ ื˜ืขืžื, ื•ืฆ”ืœ ืžืฉื•ื ื“ื›ื‘ืจ ื ื”ื’ื• ื•ื”ื•ื” ื›ืžื• ื“ืœื ื‘ื˜ืœ ื”ื˜ืขื ื•ืื›ืž”ืœ ื“ืฆืจื™ืš ื‘”ื“ ื’ื“ื•ืœ ื‘ื—ื›ืžื” ื•ืžื ื™ืŸ ืœื”ืชื™ืจื• ื•ื›”ื– ืื™ื ื• ื ืจืื” ืฉื™ื”ื™ื” ืœืขื™ืงืจ ื”ื˜ืขื ืื‘ืœ ืžืงื•ื‘ืœื™ื ืื ื—ื ื• ืžืจื‘ื ื• ื”ื’ืจ”ื ื“ืื ื›ื™ ื—ื–”ืœ ืคื™ืจืฉื• ื˜ืขืžื ื‘ื›”ื– ืขื•ื“ ื”ืฉืื™ืจื• ื˜ืžื•ื ื™ื ื‘ืกืชืจ ืœื‘ื‘ื ื˜ืขืžื™ื ืœืืœืคื™ื ื’ื“ื•ืœื™ื ื•ืจืžื™ื ืื‘ืœ ืœื ื’ืœื• ื–ื” ืœืื•ื–ืŸ ื”ืžื•ืŸ ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื›ื›ื” ืื•ืžืจ ืืฉืจ ืœื“ื‘ืจื ื• ื™ืฉ ื˜ืขื ื ืคืœื ื“ืœืคื™ ืžื” ืฉื›ืชื‘ ืจืžื‘”ื ื‘ืคื”ืž”ืฉ ื‘ืจื™ืฉ ืกื ื”ื“ืจื™ืŸ ื“ื™ื”ื™ื” ื‘”ื“ ื‘ืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื˜ืจื ื‘ื™ืืช ืžืฉื™ื— ื•ืงื™ื‘ื•ืฅ ื’ืœื™ื•ืช ืขื™ื™”ืฉ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื• ื”ื ืขื™ืžื™ื ื•ื›ืŸ ืžืคื•ืจืฉ ื‘ื™ืจื•ืฉืœืžื™ ืžืข”ืฉ ืคืจืง ื›ืจื ืจื‘ืขื™ ื–ืืช ืื•ืžืจืช ืฉื‘ื ื™ืŸ ื‘ื”ืž”ืง ื™ื”ื™ื” ืงื•ื“ื ืžืœื›ื•ืช ื‘ื™ืช ื“ื•ื“, ื”ื› ืื ื™ื”ื™ื” ื‘”ื“ ื‘ืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื™ื”ื™ื• ืžื•ื›ืจื—ื™ื ืœืงื“ืฉ ืขืค”ื™ ื”ืจืื™ื” ื•ืื ืœื ืชืชืจืื” ื”ืœื‘ื ื” ื‘ื™ื•ื ืฉืœืฉื™ื ืืขืค”ื™ ืฉืข”ืค ื—ืฉื‘ื•ืŸ ื™ื”ื™ื” ืจืื•ื™ ืœืงื‘ื•ืข ื‘ื•, ื‘ื›”ื– ื™ื”ื™ื” ืžืขื•ื‘ืจ ื•ืื– ื™ื”ื™ื• ืฆืจื™ื›ื™ื ืœืขืฉื•ืช ื‘ื’ื•ืœื” ืฉื ื™ ื™ืžื™ื ื•ืœื›ืŸ ื’ื–ืจื• ื’ื ืขื›ืฉื™ื• ื“ื•ื’ืžื” ืฉืขืฉื” ืจื™ื‘”ื– ืœืืกื•ืจ ื™ื•ื ื”ื ืฃ ื’ื–ื™ืจื” ืฉืžื ื™ื‘ื ื” ื‘ื”ืž”ืง ื•ื–ื” ื˜ืขื ื ื›ื•ืŸ ืœืขืฉื•ืช ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ื”ื–ื” ืฉื ื™ ื™ื•”ื˜ ืฉืœ ื’ืœื™ื•ืช ื•ื‘ื–ื” ื™ืกืชื ืคื™ ื”ืžืชืคืจืฆื™ื ื‘ืขื•ื””ืจ ื•ื“ื•”ืง ื‘ื›”ื– ื”ื™ื˜ื‘.

    #1495224

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Gaon: I am not comparing the chumra of gebrokts with Yom Tov Sheini. I am responding to the OP who named this thread. “minhagim-after-the-original-reason-is-gone”. Keeping Yom Tov Sheini today is based on Minhag Avoseinu B’yadeinu. We have a fixed calendar and know what day is Rosh Chodesh since Hillel’s beis din set the calendar. Therefore the reason behind why in those days they held two days was a true safeik. That reasoning is no longer applicable yet we still hold two days.

    Avi K: It is not three days 4 times. Rosh Hashanah is two days for an entirely different reason. Only two days are Yom Tov.

    #1495237

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Gadolhadorah

    perhaps we should consider imposing a sunset provision on all minhagim so they terminate every 100 years unless renewed by the gadolim of the current generation based on whether it is still โ€œrelevantโ€.

    Sunset provision doesn’t help.
    Exhibit A – The ban on 2 wives

    #1495247

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, The Rabbenu Bechaye quotes the Rabbenu Chananel in Parshas Bo that the Riyeh has to follow the cheshbun. He says that the ืขื™ืงืจ is the ื—ืฉื‘ื•ืŸ.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    #1495251

    laskern
    Participant

    The proof to the Rabbenu Chananel is Rabbon Gamliel with his forms that the edim had to agree to. He brings a proof from the desert where there was no sun or moon only the clouds and they were able to make Rosh Chodesh because they went after the cheshbun and not after the riyeh,

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    #1495366

    GAON
    Participant

    iac,

    As I stated there are diff categories of Minhagim and each has a diff status, and is rather really complex . Some indeed do expire once the reason is not relevant and some not – some will depend how it was implemented and how (and who) it was accepted. Some will depend if it is Halachik based or it is a ืกื™ื™ื’…

    In any case, the OP was in regard to Gebrokts..

    #1495477

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Gaon: I am not responding to the Original Post but to the Original Poster who named the thread.

    #1495479

    Avi K
    Participant

    Iascrimma, RH is a yom tov.
    Laskern,m Ramban says the opposite. The Torah was given to be kept in EY. Those in Chul only keep so that it will not be strange to them when they come home.

    Regarding the subject of this thread (ื’ื•ืคื), the best example of a halacha expiring (at least in general use) with the reason is mayim acharonim. While many people do wash many, maybe even moist, do not.
    Sometimes the halacha is clarified to take into consideration changed circumstances. For example, Chazal put deaf-mutes in the same category as mentally incompetents and minors. Now that they can communicate they are like any adult (Responsa Yehaveh Deah 2:6, Responsa Heichal Yitzchak EH 2:47, Responsa Keren LaDor 27, Responsa Minchat Asher 2:86).

    #1495558

    Toi
    Participant

    “…maybe even moist…”
    HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

    Avi- there are rishonim on the sugya that those who have a minhag not to do mayim achronim are somech on. The rest of y’all better do it.

    #1495556

    laskern
    Participant

    I happened to be very much makpid on mayim achronim at least on shabbos see O”CH 181 siman 10. Besides the reason for the melach sadomis there was another reason were someone was recognized because of the spot left on his moustache. We can only be redeemed when we correct our transgressions that caused our exile from EY. The Ksav Sofer in Parshas Devorim starting ืจืืฉื•ื ื™ื ืฉื ืชื’ืœื• ืขื•ื•ื ื explains in great detail the difference between the first ื—ื•ืจื‘ืŸ and the second. The first was caused because of violation of ื‘ื™ืŸ ืื“ื ืœืžืงื•ื idol worship, adultery and murder. These transgressions are caused because of affluence. People forget who has bestowed them all the good because of a fertile land. They were exiled to Babylon where they were noble man doing very well. They had to show that they will not sway away from Hashem because of their affluence. Our current exile is the opposite. This second exile is because of ื‘ื™ืŸ ืื“ื ืœื—ื‘ื™ืจื• it came because of futile hatred which comes about when people are jelous of each other. Therefore we must be exiled going from one place to another and have futile love ืื”ื‘ืช ื—ื ื to correct our transgression. This is indicated in the passage ื”ื ืœื—ืžื ืขื ื™ื we are in a state of poverty so we want to correct our futile hatred by inviting people to our meal which will bring the redemption in our time Amen. We can see ourselves being around a circle and Hashem is in the center. Through the Torah we bring the points together to make the circle smaller and eventually coincide with the center,

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  laskern.
    #1495583

    laskern
    Participant

    There is another way of looking at it. The sanctity of EY causes a bigger yetzer hora, therefore it is harder to keep the Torah there, So you either have very religious people there or the opposite. I know that Rashi brings the Sifri to keep the mitzvos in chul for EY. It doesn’t matter what the reason for keeping them in chul, but if we want the redemption, we must keep it.

    #1495603

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Avi K: While RH is a Yom Tov, it is also held for two days in EY, not because of Yom Tov Sheini Shel Golius but for a different reason having to do with not accepting the eidus of the two eidim after mincha (and the Korban Tamid Shel Bein HAa’arbaim). Therefore, since in most years Elul is chasser (29 days), people held the 30th day as RH, however, if eidem didn’t come before mincha they held both the 30th day and 31st day as RH (Yoma Arichta). See MB 601 SK 3.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49628&st=&pgnum=137

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