Minhagim After The Original Reason Is Gone

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  • #1489721

    馃憫RebYidd23
    Participant

    Most people who don’t eat gebrokts don’t think that it could become chometz.

    #1490051

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I often wonder how people can mock the practices of other religions yet defend the absolute adherence to mimhagim even after the original reason is gone. Just because we used to do something ( that was not halachic ) is not a valid reason to keep doing it

    #1490275

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Minhag Avoseinu B’yadeinu. Eample – Yom Tov Sheini Shel Galiyus.

    #1490298

    akuperma
    Participant

    Actually, the reason people who don’t eat gebrokts is the feat that there is some uncooked piece of flour buried away inside the matza and it could get wet and not eaten within 18 minutes. Nothing much has changed that affects this. It’s as much a problem as it was several millenia ago.

    #1490460

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The reason we keep two days of yom tov is gone but we say 诪谞讛讙 讗讘讜转讬谞讜 讘讬讚讬谞讜. The Chasan Sofer interprets that the strength of following a minhag is so great that it can break a bad ruling from above. The word 讛诪诇讻讜转 in 讚诇诪讗 讚讙讝专讜 讛诪诇讻讜转 讙讝讬专讛 讜讗转讬 诇拽诇拽诇讬 can also refer to the heavenly court.

    #1490603

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You might want to look at Tosfas Betza 6:1 starting 讜讛讗讬讚谞讗.

    #1490606

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The fear for the second day yom tov can still apply. If the government makes a ruling that you must count months after the sun and not after the moon.

    #1490710

    Avi K
    Participant

    There was a shul where they had a “minhag” to dip every time they passed a certain point during the hakafot. When the new rav investigated he discovered that once there had been a low-hanging chandelier there.

    #1490767

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Laskern,
    You’re joking, right?

    #1494647

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See the RMA 690:17 and the Baer Hetev there in great detail.

    #1494886

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    We have a custom to not observe obsolete minhagim whose origin is no longer relevant due to changed circumstances.

    #1494890

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: Then why do we have Yom Tov Sheini?

    #1494914

    unommin
    Participant

    Complete misunderstanding of what a minhag is. It’s not voodoo. It’s not a law. It’s the custom where you are. You don’t walk into someone else’s town and tell them how to live. That’s why we should be careful about defining anything as a common custom.

    #1494912

    adocs
    Participant

    状It鈥檚 as much a problem as it was several millenia ago.状

    The odds of this happening with our thin cracker matzos is infinitesimally low.

    The odds of this happening with machine matzos is close to impossible.

    #1494967

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    iacisrmma

    Chazal bring down that having a Yom Tov Sheini is a reasonable compromise between having only one day of yom tov and three days of yom tov, nothwithstanding uncertainty on solar/lunar calendar dates. They also note the upheaval in the heimeshe community if we were to reduce moed by one day from four to three to make up for the additional day of yom tov

    #1495005

    Meno
    Participant

    Chazal bring down that having a Yom Tov Sheini is a reasonable compromise between having only one day of yom tov and three days of yom tov

    But if there’s no issue of sfeikah d’yomah then there’s no need for a compromise at all.

    #1495006

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: Please bring your source so I can look this up myself. I have never heard this explanation for maintaining Yom Tov Sheini when we have a fixed calendar.

    #1495023

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See MB 496 in the beginning about Yom Tov Sheni. It is a 讚讘专 砖讘诪谞讬谉 爪专讬讱 诪谞讬谉 讗讞专 诇讛转讬专讜 once it was forbidden by count, we need as great chachomim to permit it.

    #1495090

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: Same with kitniyos.

    #1495102

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See the RMA 453 and the Mordechai 588. They forbade anything called legume.

    #1495110

    catch yourself
    Participant

    1. The Vilna Gaon famously states that Chazal always had multiple reasons for a Minhag, some of which they may have had some reason for concealing from us, and that therefore we may not unilaterally determine that a Minhag is no longer applicable. Obviously, this would only apply to Minhagim that are certified by Chazal. [As I have had to point out to skeptics many times, this is not at all far-fetched; both as a parent and as an educator I do this all the time.]

    2. In the specific case of Yom Tov Sheini, Rav Hirsch explains at length that this Minhag preserves for us the true character of our Yamim Tovim, which would be lost if we were to observe only one day of Yom Tov. Check his commentary to Parashas HaChodesh [Shemos 12].

    3. We should not be so arrogant as to assume that we fully understand the basis for a Minhag without extensive research, much less should we assume the authority to revoke a Minhag as obsolete. There are many stories of Rabonim who declared certain Minhagim to be Minhag Shtus, only to learn the hard way why they were wrong, corroborating this idea. [One excellent example, which I think has already been mentioned in the CR, involves the Rema and the Minhag in Cracow to say Mazal Tov after leil tevila.]

    #1495114

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Potatoes were not available at the time of the prohibition in Europe even if it is considered a legume.

    #1495119

    GAON
    Participant

    All comparing YT Sheini to the minhag of Gerokts is A”H.

    How can you can compare something that was implemented by Bes Din and accepted by all Klal Yisrael 讜驻砖讟 讛讚讘专 讘讻诇 讬砖专讗诇 (see 专诪讘”诐 讛诇讻讜转 诪诪专讬诐 讘) nothing can override that status of a Minhag. Gebrokts is just a Chumrah that some accepted AS A CHUMRAH – not as a Halcha.
    I’m not implying to say it is muttar if your minhag is to be makpid, however, Hetoros Nedarim via a Rav certainly can help. (e.g you are by in-laws that do etc) in any case, the comparison is off.

    #1495124

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, neither was corn but everyone considers it prohibited. Many also prohibit soya and canola oil (even though the canola plant is poisonous and thus cannot be considered part of the minhag – and this besides the questionable nature of prohibiting oils).

    #1495126

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Just like the conservative Trumpkopfs are insisting that every new law or regulation should have a “sunset provision” that means it disappears in 5-10 years if not affirmatively reconsidered and renewed by Congress,, perhaps we should consider imposing a sunset provision on all minhagim so they terminate every 100 years unless renewed by the gadolim of the current generation based on whether it is still “relevant”.

    #1495145

    Avi K
    Participant

    As for Yom Tov Sheini, the Yerushalmi says (Eruvin 3:9) that it is a punishment for not keeping Yom Tov properly in EY. This year (5778) it is three days four times (Rosh haShana, Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret all followed by Shabbat and Shabbat followed by Shevuot).

    #1495175

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They consider potatoes as the 讞讬讬 讗讚诐 but canola like olive oil, soya and corn we can avoid.

    #1495194

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Magen Avraham asks the question that the mitzva of sefira is to show our anticipation for Kabolas Hatorah, but it was given on the second day of Shavuos which is really the fifty first day of sefira? He answers that this implies Yom Tov Sheni Shel Golias. The Torah was given to know how to live in diaspora as it says 砖诐 转讛讗 拽讘讜专转讻诐 there in golias when the only thing that teaches us is the Torah. In Eretz Yisroel, if we were holy enough, we would have understood the Torah on our own like the avos kept the Torah in Eretz Yisroel before it was given.

    #1495225

    GAON
    Participant

    Las – See Meshech Chachmah (Parshas Bo) another reason why we really keep two days:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=54978&st=&pgnum=116

    讜讘讝讛 讬爪讗 诇谞讜 讟注诐 谞驻诇讗 注诇 讛讗 讚拽讗诪专 讛讙诪专讗 讛讝讛专讜 讘诪谞讛讙 讗讘讜转讬讻诐 讙讝讬专讛 讚讬诇诪讗 讗转讬 诇拽诇拽讜诇讗 讚讗”讻 拽砖讛 讙诐 讘讞”诇 讙诐 讘讗”讬 讬讛讬’ 诇讛诐 讚讬谉 讗讞讚 讚讙诐 讘讗”讬 砖讬讬讱 讛讗讬 讟注诪讗, 讜爪”诇 诪砖讜诐 讚讻讘专 谞讛讙讜 讜讛讜讛 讻诪讜 讚诇讗 讘讟诇 讛讟注诐 讜讗讻诪”诇 讚爪专讬讱 讘”讚 讙讚讜诇 讘讞讻诪讛 讜诪谞讬谉 诇讛转讬专讜 讜讻”讝 讗讬谞讜 谞专讗讛 砖讬讛讬讛 诇注讬拽专 讛讟注诐 讗讘诇 诪拽讜讘诇讬诐 讗谞讞谞讜 诪专讘谞讜 讛讙专”讗 讚讗诐 讻讬 讞讝”诇 驻讬专砖讜 讟注诪诐 讘讻”讝 注讜讚 讛砖讗讬专讜 讟诪讜谞讬诐 讘住转专 诇讘讘诐 讟注诪讬诐 诇讗诇驻讬诐 讙讚讜诇讬诐 讜专诪讬诐 讗讘诇 诇讗 讙诇讜 讝讛 诇讗讜讝谉 讛诪讜谉 讘谞讬 讬砖专讗诇 讻讻讛 讗讜诪专 讗砖专 诇讚讘专谞讜 讬砖 讟注诐 谞驻诇讗 讚诇驻讬 诪讛 砖讻转讘 专诪讘”诐 讘驻讛诪”砖 讘专讬砖 住谞讛讚专讬谉 讚讬讛讬讛 讘”讚 讘讗专抓 讬砖专讗诇 讟专诐 讘讬讗转 诪砖讬讞 讜拽讬讘讜抓 讙诇讬讜转 注讬讬”砖 讚讘专讬讜 讛谞注讬诪讬诐 讜讻谉 诪驻讜专砖 讘讬专讜砖诇诪讬 诪注”砖 驻专拽 讻专诐 专讘注讬 讝讗转 讗讜诪专转 砖讘谞讬谉 讘讛诪”拽 讬讛讬讛 拽讜讚诐 诪诇讻讜转 讘讬转 讚讜讚, 讗”讻 讗诐 讬讛讬讛 讘”讚 讘讗专抓 讬砖专讗诇 讬讛讬讜 诪讜讻专讞讬诐 诇拽讚砖 注驻”讬 讛专讗讬讛 讜讗诐 诇讗 转转专讗讛 讛诇讘谞讛 讘讬讜诐 砖诇砖讬诐 讗注驻”讬 砖注”驻 讞砖讘讜谉 讬讛讬讛 专讗讜讬 诇拽讘讜注 讘讜, 讘讻”讝 讬讛讬讛 诪注讜讘专 讜讗讝 讬讛讬讜 爪专讬讻讬诐 诇注砖讜转 讘讙讜诇讛 砖谞讬 讬诪讬诐 讜诇讻谉 讙讝专讜 讙诐 注讻砖讬讜 讚讜讙诪讛 砖注砖讛 专讬讘”讝 诇讗住讜专 讬讜诐 讛谞祝 讙讝讬专讛 砖诪讗 讬讘谞讛 讘讛诪”拽 讜讝讛 讟注诐 谞讻讜谉 诇注砖讜转 讘讝诪谉 讛讝讛 砖谞讬 讬讜”讟 砖诇 讙诇讬讜转 讜讘讝讛 讬住转诐 驻讬 讛诪转驻专爪讬诐 讘注讜讛”专 讜讚讜”拽 讘讻”讝 讛讬讟讘.

    #1495224

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Gaon: I am not comparing the chumra of gebrokts with Yom Tov Sheini. I am responding to the OP who named this thread. “minhagim-after-the-original-reason-is-gone”. Keeping Yom Tov Sheini today is based on Minhag Avoseinu B’yadeinu. We have a fixed calendar and know what day is Rosh Chodesh since Hillel’s beis din set the calendar. Therefore the reason behind why in those days they held two days was a true safeik. That reasoning is no longer applicable yet we still hold two days.

    Avi K: It is not three days 4 times. Rosh Hashanah is two days for an entirely different reason. Only two days are Yom Tov.

    #1495237

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Gadolhadorah

    perhaps we should consider imposing a sunset provision on all minhagim so they terminate every 100 years unless renewed by the gadolim of the current generation based on whether it is still 鈥渞elevant鈥.

    Sunset provision doesn’t help.
    Exhibit A – The ban on 2 wives

    #1495247

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Gaon, The Rabbenu Bechaye quotes the Rabbenu Chananel in Parshas Bo that the Riyeh has to follow the cheshbun. He says that the 注讬拽专 is the 讞砖讘讜谉.

    #1495251

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The proof to the Rabbenu Chananel is Rabbon Gamliel with his forms that the edim had to agree to. He brings a proof from the desert where there was no sun or moon only the clouds and they were able to make Rosh Chodesh because they went after the cheshbun and not after the riyeh,

    #1495366

    GAON
    Participant

    iac,

    As I stated there are diff categories of Minhagim and each has a diff status, and is rather really complex . Some indeed do expire once the reason is not relevant and some not – some will depend how it was implemented and how (and who) it was accepted. Some will depend if it is Halachik based or it is a 住讬讬讙…

    In any case, the OP was in regard to Gebrokts..

    #1495477

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Gaon: I am not responding to the Original Post but to the Original Poster who named the thread.

    #1495479

    Avi K
    Participant

    Iascrimma, RH is a yom tov.
    Laskern,m Ramban says the opposite. The Torah was given to be kept in EY. Those in Chul only keep so that it will not be strange to them when they come home.

    Regarding the subject of this thread (讙讜驻讗), the best example of a halacha expiring (at least in general use) with the reason is mayim acharonim. While many people do wash many, maybe even moist, do not.
    Sometimes the halacha is clarified to take into consideration changed circumstances. For example, Chazal put deaf-mutes in the same category as mentally incompetents and minors. Now that they can communicate they are like any adult (Responsa Yehaveh Deah 2:6, Responsa Heichal Yitzchak EH 2:47, Responsa Keren LaDor 27, Responsa Minchat Asher 2:86).

    #1495558

    Toi
    Participant

    “…maybe even moist…”
    HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

    Avi- there are rishonim on the sugya that those who have a minhag not to do mayim achronim are somech on. The rest of y’all better do it.

    #1495556

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I happened to be very much makpid on mayim achronim at least on shabbos see O”CH 181 siman 10. Besides the reason for the melach sadomis there was another reason were someone was recognized because of the spot left on his moustache. We can only be redeemed when we correct our transgressions that caused our exile from EY. The Ksav Sofer in Parshas Devorim starting 专讗砖讜谞讬诐 砖谞转讙诇讜 注讜讜谞诐 explains in great detail the difference between the first 讞讜专讘谉 and the second. The first was caused because of violation of 讘讬谉 讗讚诐 诇诪拽讜诐 idol worship, adultery and murder. These transgressions are caused because of affluence. People forget who has bestowed them all the good because of a fertile land. They were exiled to Babylon where they were noble man doing very well. They had to show that they will not sway away from Hashem because of their affluence. Our current exile is the opposite. This second exile is because of 讘讬谉 讗讚诐 诇讞讘讬专讜 it came because of futile hatred which comes about when people are jelous of each other. Therefore we must be exiled going from one place to another and have futile love 讗讛讘转 讞谞诐 to correct our transgression. This is indicated in the passage 讛讗 诇讞诪讗 注谞讬讗 we are in a state of poverty so we want to correct our futile hatred by inviting people to our meal which will bring the redemption in our time Amen. We can see ourselves being around a circle and Hashem is in the center. Through the Torah we bring the points together to make the circle smaller and eventually coincide with the center,

    #1495583

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is another way of looking at it. The sanctity of EY causes a bigger yetzer hora, therefore it is harder to keep the Torah there, So you either have very religious people there or the opposite. I know that Rashi brings the Sifri to keep the mitzvos in chul for EY. It doesn’t matter what the reason for keeping them in chul, but if we want the redemption, we must keep it.

    #1495603

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Avi K: While RH is a Yom Tov, it is also held for two days in EY, not because of Yom Tov Sheini Shel Golius but for a different reason having to do with not accepting the eidus of the two eidim after mincha (and the Korban Tamid Shel Bein HAa’arbaim). Therefore, since in most years Elul is chasser (29 days), people held the 30th day as RH, however, if eidem didn’t come before mincha they held both the 30th day and 31st day as RH (Yoma Arichta). See MB 601 SK 3.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49628&st=&pgnum=137

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