March 14, 2018 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1489721👑RebYidd23Participant
Most people who don’t eat gebrokts don’t think that it could become chometz.March 14, 2018 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1490051lesschumrasParticipant
I often wonder how people can mock the practices of other religions yet defend the absolute adherence to mimhagim even after the original reason is gone. Just because we used to do something ( that was not halachic ) is not a valid reason to keep doing itMarch 14, 2018 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1490275
Minhag Avoseinu B’yadeinu. Eample – Yom Tov Sheini Shel Galiyus.March 14, 2018 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1490298akupermaParticipant
Actually, the reason people who don’t eat gebrokts is the feat that there is some uncooked piece of flour buried away inside the matza and it could get wet and not eaten within 18 minutes. Nothing much has changed that affects this. It’s as much a problem as it was several millenia ago.March 14, 2018 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1490460
The reason we keep two days of yom tov is gone but we say מנהג אבותינו בידינו. The Chasan Sofer interprets that the strength of following a minhag is so great that it can break a bad ruling from above. The word המלכות in דלמא דגזרו המלכות גזירה ואתי לקלקלי can also refer to the heavenly court.March 14, 2018 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1490603
You might want to look at Tosfas Betza 6:1 starting והאידנא.March 14, 2018 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1490606
The fear for the second day yom tov can still apply. If the government makes a ruling that you must count months after the sun and not after the moon.March 15, 2018 8:01 am at 8:01 am #1490710
There was a shul where they had a “minhag” to dip every time they passed a certain point during the hakafot. When the new rav investigated he discovered that once there had been a low-hanging chandelier there.March 15, 2018 8:02 am at 8:02 am #1490767lesschumrasParticipant
You’re joking, right?March 19, 2018 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1494647
See the RMA 690:17 and the Baer Hetev there in great detail.March 19, 2018 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1494886
We have a custom to not observe obsolete minhagim whose origin is no longer relevant due to changed circumstances.March 19, 2018 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1494890
GH: Then why do we have Yom Tov Sheini?March 20, 2018 12:34 am at 12:34 am #1494914unomminParticipant
Complete misunderstanding of what a minhag is. It’s not voodoo. It’s not a law. It’s the custom where you are. You don’t walk into someone else’s town and tell them how to live. That’s why we should be careful about defining anything as a common custom.March 20, 2018 12:35 am at 12:35 am #1494912adocsParticipant
״It’s as much a problem as it was several millenia ago.״
The odds of this happening with our thin cracker matzos is infinitesimally low.
The odds of this happening with machine matzos is close to impossible.March 20, 2018 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1494967
Chazal bring down that having a Yom Tov Sheini is a reasonable compromise between having only one day of yom tov and three days of yom tov, nothwithstanding uncertainty on solar/lunar calendar dates. They also note the upheaval in the heimeshe community if we were to reduce moed by one day from four to three to make up for the additional day of yom tovMarch 20, 2018 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1495005MenoParticipant
Chazal bring down that having a Yom Tov Sheini is a reasonable compromise between having only one day of yom tov and three days of yom tov
But if there’s no issue of sfeikah d’yomah then there’s no need for a compromise at all.March 20, 2018 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1495006
GH: Please bring your source so I can look this up myself. I have never heard this explanation for maintaining Yom Tov Sheini when we have a fixed calendar.March 20, 2018 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1495023
See MB 496 in the beginning about Yom Tov Sheni. It is a דבר שבמנין צריך מנין אחר להתירו once it was forbidden by count, we need as great chachomim to permit it.March 20, 2018 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #1495090JosephParticipant
laskern: Same with kitniyos.March 20, 2018 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1495102
See the RMA 453 and the Mordechai 588. They forbade anything called legume.March 20, 2018 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1495110catch yourselfParticipant
1. The Vilna Gaon famously states that Chazal always had multiple reasons for a Minhag, some of which they may have had some reason for concealing from us, and that therefore we may not unilaterally determine that a Minhag is no longer applicable. Obviously, this would only apply to Minhagim that are certified by Chazal. [As I have had to point out to skeptics many times, this is not at all far-fetched; both as a parent and as an educator I do this all the time.]
2. In the specific case of Yom Tov Sheini, Rav Hirsch explains at length that this Minhag preserves for us the true character of our Yamim Tovim, which would be lost if we were to observe only one day of Yom Tov. Check his commentary to Parashas HaChodesh [Shemos 12].
3. We should not be so arrogant as to assume that we fully understand the basis for a Minhag without extensive research, much less should we assume the authority to revoke a Minhag as obsolete. There are many stories of Rabonim who declared certain Minhagim to be Minhag Shtus, only to learn the hard way why they were wrong, corroborating this idea. [One excellent example, which I think has already been mentioned in the CR, involves the Rema and the Minhag in Cracow to say Mazal Tov after leil tevila.]March 20, 2018 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #1495114
Potatoes were not available at the time of the prohibition in Europe even if it is considered a legume.March 20, 2018 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1495119
All comparing YT Sheini to the minhag of Gerokts is A”H.
How can you can compare something that was implemented by Bes Din and accepted by all Klal Yisrael ופשט הדבר בכל ישראל (see רמב”ם הלכות ממרים ב) nothing can override that status of a Minhag. Gebrokts is just a Chumrah that some accepted AS A CHUMRAH – not as a Halcha.
I’m not implying to say it is muttar if your minhag is to be makpid, however, Hetoros Nedarim via a Rav certainly can help. (e.g you are by in-laws that do etc) in any case, the comparison is off.March 20, 2018 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1495124
Laskern, neither was corn but everyone considers it prohibited. Many also prohibit soya and canola oil (even though the canola plant is poisonous and thus cannot be considered part of the minhag – and this besides the questionable nature of prohibiting oils).March 20, 2018 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1495126
Just like the conservative Trumpkopfs are insisting that every new law or regulation should have a “sunset provision” that means it disappears in 5-10 years if not affirmatively reconsidered and renewed by Congress,, perhaps we should consider imposing a sunset provision on all minhagim so they terminate every 100 years unless renewed by the gadolim of the current generation based on whether it is still “relevant”.March 20, 2018 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1495145
As for Yom Tov Sheini, the Yerushalmi says (Eruvin 3:9) that it is a punishment for not keeping Yom Tov properly in EY. This year (5778) it is three days four times (Rosh haShana, Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret all followed by Shabbat and Shabbat followed by Shevuot).March 20, 2018 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1495175
They consider potatoes as the חיי אדם but canola like olive oil, soya and corn we can avoid.March 20, 2018 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1495194
The Magen Avraham asks the question that the mitzva of sefira is to show our anticipation for Kabolas Hatorah, but it was given on the second day of Shavuos which is really the fifty first day of sefira? He answers that this implies Yom Tov Sheni Shel Golias. The Torah was given to know how to live in diaspora as it says שם תהא קבורתכם there in golias when the only thing that teaches us is the Torah. In Eretz Yisroel, if we were holy enough, we would have understood the Torah on our own like the avos kept the Torah in Eretz Yisroel before it was given.March 20, 2018 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1495225
Las – See Meshech Chachmah (Parshas Bo) another reason why we really keep two days:
ובזה יצא לנו טעם נפלא על הא דקאמר הגמרא הזהרו במנהג אבותיכם גזירה דילמא אתי לקלקולא דא”כ קשה גם בח”ל גם בא”י יהי’ להם דין אחד דגם בא”י שייך האי טעמא, וצ”ל משום דכבר נהגו והוה כמו דלא בטל הטעם ואכמ”ל דצריך ב”ד גדול בחכמה ומנין להתירו וכ”ז אינו נראה שיהיה לעיקר הטעם אבל מקובלים אנחנו מרבנו הגר”א דאם כי חז”ל פירשו טעמם בכ”ז עוד השאירו טמונים בסתר לבבם טעמים לאלפים גדולים ורמים אבל לא גלו זה לאוזן המון בני ישראל ככה אומר אשר לדברנו יש טעם נפלא דלפי מה שכתב רמב”ם בפהמ”ש בריש סנהדרין דיהיה ב”ד בארץ ישראל טרם ביאת משיח וקיבוץ גליות עיי”ש דבריו הנעימים וכן מפורש בירושלמי מע”ש פרק כרם רבעי זאת אומרת שבנין בהמ”ק יהיה קודם מלכות בית דוד, א”כ אם יהיה ב”ד בארץ ישראל יהיו מוכרחים לקדש עפ”י הראיה ואם לא תתראה הלבנה ביום שלשים אעפ”י שע”פ חשבון יהיה ראוי לקבוע בו, בכ”ז יהיה מעובר ואז יהיו צריכים לעשות בגולה שני ימים ולכן גזרו גם עכשיו דוגמה שעשה ריב”ז לאסור יום הנף גזירה שמא יבנה בהמ”ק וזה טעם נכון לעשות בזמן הזה שני יו”ט של גליות ובזה יסתם פי המתפרצים בעוה”ר ודו”ק בכ”ז היטב.March 20, 2018 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1495224
Gaon: I am not comparing the chumra of gebrokts with Yom Tov Sheini. I am responding to the OP who named this thread. “minhagim-after-the-original-reason-is-gone”. Keeping Yom Tov Sheini today is based on Minhag Avoseinu B’yadeinu. We have a fixed calendar and know what day is Rosh Chodesh since Hillel’s beis din set the calendar. Therefore the reason behind why in those days they held two days was a true safeik. That reasoning is no longer applicable yet we still hold two days.
Avi K: It is not three days 4 times. Rosh Hashanah is two days for an entirely different reason. Only two days are Yom Tov.March 20, 2018 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1495237Non PoliticalParticipant
perhaps we should consider imposing a sunset provision on all minhagim so they terminate every 100 years unless renewed by the gadolim of the current generation based on whether it is still “relevant”.
Sunset provision doesn’t help.
Exhibit A – The ban on 2 wivesMarch 20, 2018 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1495247
Gaon, The Rabbenu Bechaye quotes the Rabbenu Chananel in Parshas Bo that the Riyeh has to follow the cheshbun. He says that the עיקר is the חשבון.March 20, 2018 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1495251
The proof to the Rabbenu Chananel is Rabbon Gamliel with his forms that the edim had to agree to. He brings a proof from the desert where there was no sun or moon only the clouds and they were able to make Rosh Chodesh because they went after the cheshbun and not after the riyeh,March 20, 2018 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1495366
As I stated there are diff categories of Minhagim and each has a diff status, and is rather really complex . Some indeed do expire once the reason is not relevant and some not – some will depend how it was implemented and how (and who) it was accepted. Some will depend if it is Halachik based or it is a סייג…
In any case, the OP was in regard to Gebrokts..March 21, 2018 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1495477
Gaon: I am not responding to the Original Post but to the Original Poster who named the thread.March 21, 2018 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1495479
Iascrimma, RH is a yom tov.
Laskern,m Ramban says the opposite. The Torah was given to be kept in EY. Those in Chul only keep so that it will not be strange to them when they come home.
Regarding the subject of this thread (גופא), the best example of a halacha expiring (at least in general use) with the reason is mayim acharonim. While many people do wash many, maybe even moist, do not.
Sometimes the halacha is clarified to take into consideration changed circumstances. For example, Chazal put deaf-mutes in the same category as mentally incompetents and minors. Now that they can communicate they are like any adult (Responsa Yehaveh Deah 2:6, Responsa Heichal Yitzchak EH 2:47, Responsa Keren LaDor 27, Responsa Minchat Asher 2:86).March 21, 2018 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1495558ToiParticipant
“…maybe even moist…”
Avi- there are rishonim on the sugya that those who have a minhag not to do mayim achronim are somech on. The rest of y’all better do it.March 21, 2018 9:41 am at 9:41 am #1495556
I happened to be very much makpid on mayim achronim at least on shabbos see O”CH 181 siman 10. Besides the reason for the melach sadomis there was another reason were someone was recognized because of the spot left on his moustache. We can only be redeemed when we correct our transgressions that caused our exile from EY. The Ksav Sofer in Parshas Devorim starting ראשונים שנתגלו עוונם explains in great detail the difference between the first חורבן and the second. The first was caused because of violation of בין אדם למקום idol worship, adultery and murder. These transgressions are caused because of affluence. People forget who has bestowed them all the good because of a fertile land. They were exiled to Babylon where they were noble man doing very well. They had to show that they will not sway away from Hashem because of their affluence. Our current exile is the opposite. This second exile is because of בין אדם לחבירו it came because of futile hatred which comes about when people are jelous of each other. Therefore we must be exiled going from one place to another and have futile love אהבת חנם to correct our transgression. This is indicated in the passage הא לחמא עניא we are in a state of poverty so we want to correct our futile hatred by inviting people to our meal which will bring the redemption in our time Amen. We can see ourselves being around a circle and Hashem is in the center. Through the Torah we bring the points together to make the circle smaller and eventually coincide with the center,March 21, 2018 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1495583
There is another way of looking at it. The sanctity of EY causes a bigger yetzer hora, therefore it is harder to keep the Torah there, So you either have very religious people there or the opposite. I know that Rashi brings the Sifri to keep the mitzvos in chul for EY. It doesn’t matter what the reason for keeping them in chul, but if we want the redemption, we must keep it.March 21, 2018 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1495603
Avi K: While RH is a Yom Tov, it is also held for two days in EY, not because of Yom Tov Sheini Shel Golius but for a different reason having to do with not accepting the eidus of the two eidim after mincha (and the Korban Tamid Shel Bein HAa’arbaim). Therefore, since in most years Elul is chasser (29 days), people held the 30th day as RH, however, if eidem didn’t come before mincha they held both the 30th day and 31st day as RH (Yoma Arichta). See MB 601 SK 3.
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