Mishpacha article reg. drinking

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  • #603013
    yoya
    Member

    What do you think? Is he right about it’s ok for bochurim to drink as an outlet as long as it’s under control?

    #870436
    writersoul
    Member

    No.

    #870437
    writersoul
    Member

    I was actually at a kiddush for a bar mitzvah a while back, and they had a very well-stocked liquor table, to say the least. Some boys started coming down to the table, and I mean boys— this was a January bar mitzvah and these were classmates of the bar mitzvah boy, and only one of them had a hat. They immediately got down to business downing shots of Scotch and vodka. I and my family were looking on absolutely horrified, and my dad went over to the boys to tell them to stop. They refused, and my dad went to go tell the baal simcha, a friend of his. While they were drinking, two other men came over. One told them they shouldn’t be drinking— because the rav hadn’t yet made kiddush. The other snatched their bottle of Scotch from them and told them not to drink it— he handed them another bottle of cheaper Scotch instead. Honestly, if I hadn’t been a ten-year-old schnook I seriously would have gone over to tell them to stop. Eventually, the baal simcha confiscated the liquor and sent the boys home.

    At the same kiddush, the same man who gave them the cheap Scotch told me off for stepping my foot three inches into the men’s section to get some candy.

    Something is rotten in the state of Judaism, if you ask me.

    #870438
    Health
    Participant

    Yoya -yoya -Please quote the article -so we can comment.

    #870439
    yoya
    Member

    The article was the perspective of a 23 year old yeshiva bochur who was saying how people shouldn’t judge bochurim in Israel drinking friday night, kiddush, or weddings. He said it’s an outlet and they stop as soon as they get married.

    #870440
    golden mom
    Member

    I was very disapointed with the article I was hoping it would touch more on the married men there r unfortantly too many men getting stoned fri night what kind of example r they showing there kids and what r they showing towards their wife the once a wk I’m home to help and be around the family I get stoned I did like what the rav said that these boys think they will stop onces they r married. I was always wondering y nb said anything to these pp and he said how aparents and wifes can’t say anything nobody will listhen. It has become a very big problem in the community. And I’m glad it was addressed

    #870441
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Everything in moderation.

    #870442

    without discussing whether its right or wrong, i totally agree with the author that the only person that can stop it is the drinker himself- not his parents/rebbe/dormcounselor.this has 2 b a personal and voluntary decision otherwise it wont stick

    #870443
    haifagirl
    Participant

    golden mom: How on earth do you expect to teach your children to communicate properly?

    #870444
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    IN the last few years my fellow Rabbaim and I have seen a significant increase in talmidim telling us of fathers who drink to get drunk on Fri night and don’t wake up till almost Mincha time on Shabbos or come home very high from a kiddush, rush through a day seuda drinking more to top it off and wake up to mumble a 2 shmoneh esray maariv and havdalah on pepto bismol ( grape juice).

    #870445
    jdb
    Participant

    Drinking among teens in public needs to become socially unacceptable. It’s dangerous, and it’s often not legal. This isn’t to say that among teens in private is ok, but in private it doesn’t have implied social consent as it does when nobody says anything at a kiddush.

    This isn’t to say we should drive it underground. Addressing underground activities is a different story, one that relates more to education, parenting and trust than to public behavior.

    #870446
    The little I know
    Participant

    Drinking as an outlet is abominable for anyone, adult or teen alike. One may check up what the Rambam says about the myth that intoxication can contribute in any positive way to avodas Hashem. He states that these are diametric opposites. One of the ideas that we have gleaned from exposure to the goyishe velt is the behavior of drinking for pleasure’s sake – the “outlet”. Alcohol does not solve problems of any kind, ever. In Torah life, alcohol has a very limited and prescribed use. It is to be part of a mitzvah, not the goal of an altered state of mind. It graces our mitzvos of kiddush, chupah, bris milah, arba kosos, and the ritual of l’chaim. Once it is exploited for anything else, we are steeped in pure gashmiyus, and this not only has no spiritual value, but actually redirects the drinker away from Torah and spiritual life. There is NEVER a heter for use of alcohol (or other intoxicants) as an outlet.

    #870447
    TIGER69
    Member

    Everything that a person has or does the decision reflects them. The person is aware that their decision communicates value to him, and perception to others. The person is aware of the repercussions.

    #870448
    Health
    Participant

    TIGER69 -In your defense of young people drinking you bring out two points. One – older people have desires for material things and noone condenms them. 2. You say it’s a stage that will pass.

    1. Even if there are older people who do things for pure Gasmhius reasons -it’s wrong also. Two wrongs don’t make a right!

    2. You even allude to this yourself – right now it’s wrong, even if it’s only a stage. You can’t do things wrong just because it’s a stage in life. The Yetzer Hora will always use this excuse to get you.

    It might not be your fault -once upon a time – there were leaders who taught people right from wrong. Nowadays, we have heads of Yeshivos & Parents that only stress external things, eg. no internet.

    Nothing by itself is inherently wrong -it’s how you use it. How you use the net could be right or wrong. How you use alcohol on Shabbos could be right or wrong. I’ll even say cigarettes -if someone only smokes on Purim and takes a cig. a few times a year (not more) -eg. a Choson cig. is Not wrong.

    Using alcohol for an outlet is just a euphemism for addiction.

    Addictions need Professional Help!

    #870449
    golden mom
    Member

    haifagirl: hu??

    #870450
    oomis
    Participant

    The article was the perspective of a 23 year old yeshiva bochur who was saying how people shouldn’t judge bochurim in Israel drinking friday night, kiddush, or weddings. He said it’s an outlet and they stop as soon as they get married. “

    No, they do not. If one needs to drink for an outlet, then there is already a dependency. Better to be dependent on something healthier. In the past I have seen guys running out of shul in the middle of the leining, in order to attend their “kiddush club,” which IMO is the single worst thing any shul could allow on its premises. the disrespect to the Torah, to the Midash Me-at, to the Rov, makes me cringe. Bochurim should have other outlets available besides liquor an/or cigarettes (another problem of epic proportions). The only saving grace in E”Y, at least in the case of the Chutz L’Aretz bochurim, is that they probably are not driving anywhere.

    #870451
    apushatayid
    Participant

    the bachur mentioned it was an outlet from the pressures they faced. left unasked and a seemingly very obvious question is, exactly what pressure does a 23 year old american bachur in e’y face all week? he has no financial, social or personal responsibilities. all that is asked of him is that he be a mench, attend davening, shiurim and sedarim. nothing more, nothing less. it was suggested to me that perhaps it was left unasked because the honest answer would open a pandoras box regarding the topic of whether these bachurim are in the right yeshiva, or perhaps the wrong venue altogether (not sure if mishpacha is ready to go THERE yet).

    #870452
    The little I know
    Participant

    apushatayid asked the obvious question, “What pressures?”

    In reality, there could be many sources of pressure. Having learned in E”Y quite some years ago, I can guess at some questions that may trouble an American bochur in E”Y.

    1. Am I am learning to the level appropriate for the yeshiva where I am? Should I feel guilty if not?

    2. When not in yeshiva (off hours, weekends, bein hazmanim), what should I be doing and with whom?

    3. In whom can I confide when I have any issue, even a little one, that I want to discuss?

    4. Should I join the groups of bochurim that go for Shabbos meals to gracious machnisei orchim who are total strangers? It makes me feel cheap, like a beggar.

    5. While learning in E”Y might be great, there are also many distractions. How can I deal with this conflict?

    6. Some of my friends are getting engaged or married. I am not even getting “redd a shidduch”. Is something wrong with me?

    You can think of others. Regardless, drinking alcohol as an outlet is never acceptable as consistent with Torah value.

    #870453
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I guess if I was 10,000 miles from home with noone to confide in I’d also drink…..

    Seriously, those are not pressures, certainly not on the level that one needs alcohol as an escape.

    Every situation mentioned has an obvious answer, speak to a Rebbe. Surely the yeshiva has one or two hanging around.

    #870454
    Bowwow
    Participant

    Anyone who says that they are using Alcohol as an outlet and can stop whenever they want is fooling themselves.

    If someone needs an outlet they should try physical activity.

    Get help… Please.

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