Missing Krias Shema on Tisha B'Av

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  • #613314

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    I’ve heard that if one misses zeman krias shema they should still say it, because 1) It’s part of davening and 2) One gets schar for saying it.

    Presumably, you get the schar of Limud Torah.

    So my question is: hopefully no one will miss zman krias schema on Tisha B’Av, but if they do should they say it anyway because of reason 1? Or maybe they shouldn’t say it since shouldn’t learn (except certain things) on Tisha B’Av…

    #1026268

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Is it worse than Ashrei or better yet, Eizehu Mekoman? Anything recited is fine.

    #1026269

    Sam2
    Participant

    Al Regel Achas, I would say that within Zman T’fillah one should still say it because it is part of the Seder Hayom (just like we still say Eizehu Mekoman even though the entire point of that is to learn Torah to start our day). After Zman T’fillah, though, it is no worse than a regular Korei BaTorah, which is Assur on Tishah B’av.

    #1026270

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Sam2:

    Sounds logical. Hope it never comes up 🙂

    Good Shabbos everyone! May we always have achdus and may all of the Israeli soldiers be safe including the captured one R”L, culminating with Mashiach Tzidkeinu and the 3rd Beis Hamikdash.

    #1026271

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    If it’s within zman tefilla lichora you have to say it in order to be someich geulah l’tefillah (or at least the berachos). See Rabbeinu Chananel Berachos 10b ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????

    #1026272

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also, shema also includes kabbalas ol malchus shamayim and zechiras mitzrayim so lichora you can still say at least those parts

    #1026273

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Some people say the parshios of tfilin by mincha. I imagine saying krias shma as part of davening can’t be worse than that.

    #1026274

    Sam2
    Participant

    42: You’re saying as a Kiyum in T’fillin?

    And by the way, I think Chafetz Chayim is the only major place that does that. Most other people I’ve asked think that’s an Assur form of Divrei Torah on Tishah B’av.

    #1026275

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    I don’t know who does what when it comes to parshios tefillin. The machzor I use says that some say them and some don’t and there always seems to be a discussion about which way we follow. As the old joke goes, the minhag is to argue about it.

    In terms of the question of the OP, I’m not sure what the question is. If you are saying the birchos krias shma, then why not say shma itself as well? It is part of davening.

    #1026276

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Yes, it’s part of davening, but it’s also part of Chumash, which is Assur to learn on Tisha B’Av. So my question was, what takes precedence: the fact that it’s part of davening, or the fact that learning is assur?

    #1026277

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ivdu: Basically, your Shaila is this: Can you learn the parts of Torah that are also said in Davening on Tishah B’av? Meaning, can I learn the paragraphs of Shma in the afternoon? I would think a Davar Pashut that the answer is no.

    #1026278

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Sam2, I thought my question was a little different: what I’m trying to say is, which halacha trumps: not learning on Tisha B’Av or keeping the nusach of davening? I suppose it’s a given that after zman tefilla one shouldn’t say it, but about within zman tefilla?

    #1026279

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ivdu: I thought everyone was in agreement that within Zman T’fillah (4 hours) it should be said.

    The better question is is it Muttar to say the final Passuk between 4-6 hours in order to be Somech Geulah Litfillah.

    #1026280

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Oh, I understand now. Can’t you be somech geula l’tfilla another way? There’s some mentions in veyatziv.

    Also, what about an ones? Can he say it at all (before chatzos)?

    #1026281

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ivdu: The M”B says “Efshar”, but Pashut Pshat in the vast majority of Poskim is no.

    #1026282

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Sam2: Huh. I learned that one can fulfill the mitzvah of remembering yetzias mitzrayim all day, we just set shema as that time. I thought that if you forgot to have in mind by shema, you could be yotze all day. Maybe I’m remembering wrong’.

    #1026283

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ivdu: Sorry, I should have been clearer. Yes, on can be Yotzei remembering Mitzrayim all day. The M”B’s Efshar is about saying Birchos Krias Shma between 4-6 hours if there was an Ones.

    #1026284

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Haga’ah in the Rosh says that you don’t need to be someich geulah l’tefillah on Shabbos because the inyan to be someich is learned out from the pasuk of ???????? ?’ ??????? ????? and Shabbos is not a yom tzarah. Now on Tisha B’av we also skip ???????? ?’ ??????? ????? because Tisha B’av has the status of a moed. So efshar the Haga’ah would hold that on Tisha B’av you don’t need to be someich geulah l’tefillah.

    #1026285

    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: We skip it because it’s called a Moed? That’s the reason for Tachanun. Don’t you usually not say Lamnatzeach in a Beis Avel? Isn’t that why it’s skipped on Tishah B’av?

    #1026286

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You don’t skip aneinu, do you?

    #1026287

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aruch says that we don’t say tachanun and we don’t do nefilas apayim on Tisha B’av because it’s a moed. The Rema adds several things, among them that we don’t say lamenatzeach. As to whether or not this is also because it’s a moed, you may be right and truthfully I should have expressed my point in a better way which is as the Mishnah Berurah says about Lamenatzeach ????? ?? ???????? ?’ ??????? ????? ???’ ???? ???? ???? ??. In other words my point is that Tisha B’av is like Shabbos in the inapplicability of the pasuk from which the inyan of semicha is derived (even if it is for a different reason) and therefore it is possible that if you hold that you don’t need semicha on Shabbos then you would also hold that you don’t need semicha on Tisha B’av. (I say possible because it’s also possible that the differences in the reasoning [if there are] could translate into differences in halacha.) Also this was all pretty much l’pilpul b’alma (even though I know you will then object to this thread because I hold that pilpul is assur) because even regarding shabbos, the Rema paskens that one should be machmir to be someich on Shabbos unless it’s b’makom tzarich (and the Beis Yosef holds that you do need semicha on shabbos).

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