Mitt Romney is now persona non grata

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  • #1829257
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Who will they get to challenge him in the primary?

    #1829287
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I think he is a chasidei umas hoalom who have a chelek in olam habo. He voted according to his conscence because of his strong religious devotion.

    #1829336
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    🙄

    I have a bridge to sell you

    #1829334
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Utah is very different than other “Red” states. Reminder that in the last election, the third=party Mormon candidate for President, Evan McMullin, received nearly 23 percent of the popular vote. The Mormons actually take their religion seriously and are turned off by the lying, vulgarity and infidelity manifest by the current occupant of the WH. Romney will have no problem getting re-elected although I’m certain the Trumpkopf will recruit one of his cones to run against him in the primary.

    #1829358
    chash
    Participant

    Does anyone really believe Trump did not pressure Zelensky to go after Biden in some way? “but we need a favor from you first”, its in the transcript. So it isnt a clear quid pro quo? there are surely “raglayim ledavar”. I dont think that in itself is under debate by anyone.
    I do think that the debate is whether it is an impeachable offense, or is that considered sufficient evidence [not whether there is sufficient evidence, but whether the evidence already presented is sufficient]. Both debatable items. So Romney believes yes and yes. It seems valid to me.
    [although i myself would say not, it isnt a black and white matter]

    #1829359
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    GH,

    And he didn’t ask for trump’s help when he was running? Why would he want a “vulgar president” to help him in a pure Mormon state

    #1829365
    jackk
    Participant

    He is not up for an election until 2025.
    He has plenty of time to not worry about Trump.

    #1829366
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Chash,

    As Ben Shapiro has pointed out numerous times on his show

    “How do you know the personal favor is going on 2020 and not look into what happened in 2016

    #1829367
    Shlomo 2
    Participant

    Yes, Romney will now be persona non grata at Yeshiva dinners!

    WHich Orthodox institution would possibly honor someone who acted out of good conscience and according to moral principle and religious belief?

    Standing up against Trump just because he’s a compulsive liar, menuval, thief, and bully?

    What kind of role model is Romney for our children?

    #1829413
    klugeryid
    Participant

    G H and Shlomo2,
    What your saying is actually a huge condemnation on Romney.
    He despises him, perhaps properly, for his immoral lifestyle. So he found a place to publicly censure him.
    Remember an immoral lifestyle is not impeachable.
    To vote to impeach when the charges don’t hold up, because you despise him even rightly so, for other reasons, is pure corruptness. And when it’s known that you don’t get along with the man and have been slighted by him many times, it’s also revenge.
    So basically you are going on record that Romney is a
    Petty, corrupt, revengeful, Opportunist.
    Totally true but not exactly what I want as a role model for my kids

    #1829442
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Reb Eleizer
    And Shlomo2 too,
    Am I missing something here?
    The man is a practising Mormon, probably from the few remaining עובדי אלילים
    I don’t think his religious ferver is something to be extolled here.
    ??????? ר אליעזר!!!! חסידי עומות העולם
    ה ישמרינו! זה רק מי שמשתדל לטובת ישראל לא סתם עובד אליל המאמין בתפלותו בחזקה

    #1829444
    ben avrohom
    Participant

    Romney voted as he did because HaSinah mekalkeles es HaShurah.

    #1829454
    Resident Mortal
    Participant

    Romney believes in ‘holy trinity’ which is ideology, so his religious conscious is already causing him to go to hell and now its going to make his life the same in this world also. But as a consolation prize he gets good headlines in the newspaper until he acts like a republican again

    #1829461
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Romney believes in ‘holy trinity’ which is ideology, so his religious conscious is already causing him to go to hell”

    There are opinions that say שיטוף isn’t considered עבודה זרה for גוים

    #1829466
    jackk
    Participant

    Why is being a mormon more ע״ז than presbyterians or any of the other believers in ישו ?
    Anyone who does not keep the 7 mitzvos because Moshe Rabbenuc ommanded them to is not termed chaside umos haolam.

    #1829473
    chash
    Participant

    Actually he’d be considered Chachmei umos haolam, as per the rambam, for keeping the 7 laws. Chasideihem are only if their mekabel bifnei bes din.
    As mentioned above, Nachrim arent mechuyav in ‘Yichud”. Hence He observes the 7 noahide laws and is from “Chachmei umos Haolam”, the same of which cannot be said for the president.
    Romney is a respectable man.
    And lets say its just out of spite, so he clobbered his enemy good, out of spite. Thats what you do to your enemies.
    And he was not on to shakey ground either, lets remember guys “We need a favor first” is in the transcript. Its quite clear what was meant by that. There are reasons why that in itself may not actually be 1) impeachable or 2) sufficient, but thats a tough argument to make. not impossible, but surely not ‘non-debatable’.

    #1829527
    klugeryid
    Participant

    You so sure he keeps all seven?
    Never took home a pen or paper clip from his office without permission?
    נכרים חייבים על פחות משווה פרוטה
    ואזהרתן זו היא מיתתתן
    I’d wager he’s no saint

    #1829525
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Chash

    And lets say its just out of spite, so he clobbered his enemy good, out of spite. Thats what you do to your enemies.

    Ain’t that at worst what trump did to Biden?

    And how rich is it that Mr Mormon that last Bastion of Polygamy to hate trump cause he had multiple girlfriends

    #1829543
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @klugeryid

    Always so sure, always so wrong.
    You’d wager he’s no saint.

    Mormons are the Church of Latter Day Saints.

    Senator Romney doesn’t need to take paper clips from the office, he is wealthy in his own right.

    This is one Democrat who could comfortably have voted for Romney for Governor or Senator

    #1829542
    moshe eli
    Participant

    Let’s say Trump was inappropriate in asking the Ukrainian president about Hunter Biden. Political considerations aside, it’s a red flag that Hunter Biden gets a job on the board of Burisma with no background or experience in that area of business, making big bucks. Keep in mind Burisma was under investigation by the Ukrainian prosecutor at that time. I call your attention to a video, which you can look at, in which Joe Biden brags about how he got that prosecutor fired. If you don’t see something not right here, get new glasses. There’s a dirty, corrupt situation there. Take Trump out of it, this needs to be investigated.

    #1829551
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, Why does Romney have to be better than the Torah which allows polygamy?

    #1829468
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    CA and Resident Mortal: I doubt very much that Romney is headed where the sun doesn’t shine since the Trumpkopf will have made it clear to the authorities down there that he will not share his space with a “never Triumper”. Indeed, those authorities already have an online petition going to deny entry to the Trumpkpf. .

    #1829425
    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Trump helps us so he deserves our support. That’s the only thing that matters. Compare that with the various Dems that some mosdos suck up to who are in favor of criminals, illegals, drugs, mishkav zochor, and decimating limud hatorah.

    Edited

    #1829561
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    GH,

    Not sure where you see that I said he’s not going to heaven

    #1829563
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “There’s a dirty, corrupt situation there. Take Trump out of it,”

    Absolutly and thats what the legislative chance tried to do. but sadly only one Republican had the courage to vote to do what was obviously right and take Trump out of it.

    Though on the plus side, I am happy to say that I was wrong, not EVERY Republican puts party ahead of country.

    #1829579
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    haha ubiquitin, cute.
    I always get taken aback when I read your pro democrat posts. im from Chicago and I don’t think I know a single frum person who supports these dems so it throws me to think its even possible.

    #1829590
    roshvrishon
    Participant

    He’s a fool and an ingrate. His religion? Mormons believe that a Mr. and Mrs. God live on Mars. I kid you not.

    #1829588
    roshvrishon
    Participant

    He’s a fool and an ingrate. Period. As for his religion, it’s a cockamanaical religion that believes that Mr, and Mrs. God live on Mars. I kid you not.

    #1829600
    kollelman
    Participant

    Let’s not forget Romney is involved in his own shady dealings and is a huge swamp rat. Trump can’t stand him and rightfully so. Huge mussar watching him and Pelosi allow anger and revenge to get the best of them.

    #1829599
    klugeryid
    Participant

    reb eliezer
    klugeryid, Why does Romney have to be better than the Torah which allows polygamy?
    he doesnt
    why does trump?
    a goy cant have hundreds of girlfriends ?

    #1829598
    klugeryid
    Participant

    ct you remind me of a yankel miller joke
    a man has too many children to fit in an suv so he buys himsef a schoolbus.
    hes driving on the palisades parkway and gets stopped.
    officer , whats the issue?
    your driving a schoolbus on a parkway,its not allowed!
    officer this is not a schoolbus its my car
    sir it says schoolbus right on the side!
    officer, and if it said airplane it would be able to fly??

    so he calls himself a saint
    so did the pope call many murderers who murdered countless jews
    as to stealing, he wasnt always wealthy. you really think in his life he never took anything that wasnt his?

    #1829595

    For an individual as individual To have a conscience ,
    that a gentleman should be respected for his conscience,
    and should vote accordingly that is the Bedrock Foundation upon which the Republic is based
    I believe Romney felt also an added obligation to his father + the old Republican party that Romney remembered To vote the way he did

    Due to the dire need of hit hard back at the postmodern postliberal democrats
    we’re in Danger of giving up and abandoning the ends for the sake of the means And completely confusing it with the ends
    this is even for someone Like myself who is relieved by the general vote for acquittal
    That is the case even if an element Of political calculation for Romney May have been in the vague calculus
    It may be of help in a general election if it gets that far but it will be a tremendous risk for the primaries now that he alienated the base as he was well aware
    those who are attacking him are no different than the anti Republic woke or totalitarian Democrats

    #1829606
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag

    “I always get taken aback when I read your pro democrat posts”

    I’m always taken aback by the opposite!
    As Iv’e said I understand liking Trump for and even voting for him becasue xyz. I don’t understand the adoration and even prestige thrown upon him,.

    Furthermore Thinking he should be impeached isnt even “pro democrat ” per se .
    Even Republicans agree (now) that he acted “inappropriately ” to quote Lamar Alexamnder. Many other Republicans said similar (for example Collins, Rubio, Toomey Ernst).

    I understand celebrating his victory becasue he will keep nominating conservative justices, supporting Israel etc , so who cares if he acted inappropriately.
    but I am baffled by comments like
    “THE “HOAX” IS OVER: TRUMP ACQUITTED OF ALL CHARGES”
    what hoax? Even republicans agree it happened, And as for Obstructing congress? Trump publicly said he is hiding evidence and instructed his stafferes not to cooperate.
    He absolutly obstructed ccongress, That is not debatable for a rational person.

    whether that is impeachable is debatable. Dershowitz said 20 years agio it was. Fine, he has since changed his mind for the sake of fame., I get that. But lets be honest among ourselves.

    #1829607
    dbrim
    Participant

    The ignorance and naivete here is astounding. Ukraine corruption was an ongoing concern – the Obama administration had opened an investigation. And at the time Trump ran for and was elected president, Biden hadn’t been the democrat nominee – there was no reason to ASSUME that iberbutil Biden would be seeking a 2020 run. And Biden, his son and other family members SHOULD be investigated for their abuse of position and power. And even if Trump’s motivation wasn’t purely lishma – so what? Thought crimes are not impeachable offenses. Liberals would like to see people hang for thoughts that are not “progressive” and politically correct but so far the constitution and rule of law, while under attack, are still the law of the land. There are plenty of other countries that punish thought crimes – if you don’t hold of due process or the values of the constitution there are plenty other MUCH better places to live.

    #1829635
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Dbrim 👍👍👍

    #1829638
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Furthermore Thinking he should be impeached isnt even “pro democrat ” per se .
    Even Republicans agree (now) that he acted “inappropriately ” to quote Lamar Alexamnder. Many other Republicans said similar (for example Collins, Rubio, Toomey Ernst).“

    Impeached doesn’t equal acting inappropriately (as you’ve stated later

    I still don’t understand why you really think trump did this for 2020 and not to get to the bottom of 2016

    #1829636
    benignuman
    Participant

    Klugeryid,

    1. Non-Jews can do teshuva just like Jews.
    2. Non-Jews being chayiv on pachos m’shava peruta is only if the owner is makpid. Office owners (for most of Romney’s career he was one of the owners) are typically mochel such small takings.
    3. I’m not sure what you mean by “saint” (a christian concept) but I have not seen anything about Romney that indicates that he is dishonorable or corrupt in any way.

    #1829637
    chash
    Participant

    @kluger
    Yes, the difference is trump [arguably] broke the law going after biden while romney [arguably] upheld it.

    If he did take paper clips he’d be an omer muttar… besides, is there a chiyuv livdok?
    but all that is “agav churfei ta’ah”. Its irrelevant. The point is romney consistently is upstanding, even here, v’horaya, he could of voted against Trump regarding both articles, so ‘migu’….
    but all that isnt nogei’a either cause he’s a soneh and cant be dayan or aid.
    Now that we got that outta the way, the fact remains, that it is not possible to know his motivation. Therefore 1) it may have been honest.
    2) even if it wasnt, romneys response was, as you pointed out, no different than trumps to biden, coupled with the fact that trump went after romney before for no good reason. Therefore i still consider romney upstanding, if this is a fault, its a pretty good fault.
    BTW, I dont agree with romney, i dont think trump should be impeached, yet neither do i need to prescribe banality to romney for voting the way he did

    #1829650
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “As Iv’e said I understand liking Trump for and even voting for him becasue xyz. I don’t understand the adoration and even prestige thrown upon him,.”

    Me neither. And I don’t really know anyone who does (of the group mentioned)

    I do disagree with most of the rest of your post, but unlike many I’m encountering here, I don’t have a problem with that 🙂 I think it’s stupid when people (this is directed at people globally) only support someone if they agree with them, a senator is only smart/legit/voting his conscience if he votes your way etc. How bout they just have a different view point.
    Whatever. Glad it’s over.

    #1829652
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Benig
    We were just discussing this in yeshiva as a schmooze
    Nobody knew sources as to whether a goy can do teshuva.
    .
    Me I seem to remember that they can’t
    But I’d love some sources
    You seem pretty certain
    Mind sharing?

    #1829654
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Chash your good
    Realize though if you grant that trump did nothing wrong (just for arguments sake, since you agree it’s a possibility)
    Then the script gets flipped.
    Trump was upholding the law by making sure us money is not going to corrupt rockets, and then the impeachment was really just an illegal witch hunt and Rooney vindictively voting to impeach is voting to break the law.
    So it’s not so clear cut.
    Don’t think omer muttar help by a goy the gemorah says when hashem say they weren’t keeping their seven he made them think it’s now permitted so he could later punish them.
    Sorta sounds like it don’t help them guys

    Do you have to check?
    No way!!! Your allowed to assume the worst about them with a clear conscience.
    I think he felt it would give him more credence to split his vote so I don’t think he has a migu

    All jokes aside ,I don’t think this was upstanding at all. It was payback. Everyone knows the whole proceeding was only undertaken to get trump. Even if he is guilty, if they liked him they would never have done this.
    Sort Of like what they are saying about trump, even if Biden was guilty, trump only investigated to hurt Biden.
    So voting for it specifically where he knew it would be meaningless anyway, was only to poke trump in the eye.
    Had he been a deciding vote to cause trump to lose office, that possibly would be guts.
    Here it was just petty.

    #1829656
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid, what about this midrash:

    ילקוט שמעוני תהלים רמז תתמג
    פגע אדם הראשון בקין אמר ליה מה נעשה בדינך אמר ליה עשיתי תשובה ונפטרתי, התחיל אדם הראשון מטפח על פניו אמר כך הוא גדול כחה של תשובה ולא הייתי יודע, מיד עמד אדם הראשון ואמר מזמור. ר’ שמעון אומר המזמור הזה אדם הראשון אמרו, לפי שבא יום השבת ונעשה סניגור לאדם לפני הקדוש ברוך הוא ואמר רבון העולם, בששת ימי המעשה לא נהרג איש בעולם ובי אתה מתחיל, זו היא קדושתי וזו היא ברכתי ונוצל אדם הראשון מדינה של גיהנם בזכות השבת, וכשראה אדם כחה של שבת התחיל משורר מזמור שיר ליום השבת,

    #1829658
    benignuman
    Participant

    Klugeryid,

    There are many sources. For example, Rashi at the beginning of parshas Noach explains that the purpose of the Teyva was to get the dor hamabul to do Teshuva: עשה לך תבת. הַרְבֵּה רֶוַח וְהַצָּלָה לְפָנָיו, וְלָמָּה הִטְרִיחוֹ בְּבִנְיָן זֶה? כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּרְאוּהוּ אַנְשֵׁי דוֹר הַמַּבּוּל עוֹסֵק בָּהּ ק”כ שָׁנָה, וְשׁוֹאֲלִין אוֹתוֹ מַה זֹּאת לְךָ, וְהוּא אוֹמֵר לָהֶם עָתִיד הַקָּבָּ”ה לְהָבִיא מַבּוּל לָעוֹלָם, אוּלַי יָשׁוּבוּ:

    The entire Navi Yonah was sent to Ninveh to get the goyim there to do teshuvah (which is why we read it on Yom Kippur).

    By Bilaam, the Seforno explains that Hashem made his donkey speak to get Bilaam to do teshuvah: ויפתח ה’ את פי האתון נתן בה כח לדבר כענין ה’ שפתי תפתח. וכל זה היה כדי שיתעורר בלעם לשוב בתשובה בזכרו כי מה’ מענה לשון גם לבלתי מוכן כל שכן שיוכל להסירו מן המוכן כרצונו וכל זה כדי שלא יאבד איש כמוהו

    #1829663
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Hkw can Adam Harishon keep shabbos being a septor of the King? The Klei Yokor says that a goy also needs to make a commemoration of shabbos.

    #1829664
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    SYag

    “And I don’t really know anyone who does (of the group mentioned)”

    Its most people I know

    I do disagree with most of the rest of your post,”

    That is part of my point. the rest of my post isn’t debatable. Eg “Even Republicans agree (now) that he acted “inappropriately ”” This is a demonstrable indisputable fact (I mean some not all Republicans acknowledge this) . another line: “And as for Obstructing congress? Trump publicly said he is hiding evidence and instructed his stafferes not to cooperate.” again demonstrable and indisputable.

    what is debatable (as Ive said) is whether these offenses are impeachable.

    ” I think it’s stupid when people (this is directed at people globally) only support someone if they agree with them, ”
    I couldn’t agree more

    ” How bout they just have a different view point.”
    This is part of the problem A Different view point is ok (even beneficial) if grounded in fact. However Trump has ushered in a new wave of “alternative facts” reality itself can be explained differently based on your viewpoint If you dont like the fact, just label it “fake news” If you do like it say it even if not ture. This is part of who Trump is, he (really Tony Schwartz ) brags about it The art of the deal

    “Whatever. Glad it’s over.”

    Lol! Its far from over. We have at least another year, and probably 5 more years to go.

    #1829669
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Benig , all your proofs are for a klal and not for an individual but mine is about Kayin an individual.

    #1829673
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Ubiq – I just wrote a whole long response but my computer froze and it disappeared. I always take that to mean Hashem decided not to send it. And I do have a policy not to argue with Him.
    blah

    #1829674
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    For Bilom, were does the Suporna get it from? Maybe from the above medrash about Kayin.

    #1829677
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ben and Reb
    Thanks
    Don’t know how I missed נינוה
    The other ones are before מתן תורה so that may not be a great proof for today

    #1829684
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I don’t tnink Ninveh is a proof since it says, should I not have mercy on a city. How do you know an individual can do teshuva?

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