Mitzvah Tantz?

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  • #608277
    hardatwork
    Member

    I’m from out of town and I have been to several weddings in the east cost lately in which there was a mitzvah tantz I was greatly disturbed seeing the chosson and kallah dancing together in front of everyone, how is this tznius?

    #1208089

    It’s so funny that you bring this up because my friends and I were just discussing this. It must be an out of town thing cuz all the New Yorkers thought its fine but the one out of towner thought it was so untznius, personally I dont see anything wrong with it if plenty of chassidish rebbes approve of it. What I was wondering about is the chosson and kallah holding hands after the chupah, I noticed that some people do it and some dont, what is better? Is that tznius?

    #1208090
    akuperma
    Participant

    They are touching each other. Traditionally they are each holding on to something (a gartel is common in communities where gartels are common) and looking embarassed. It’s quite acceptable halachically and socially, and is a well established and ancient custom.

    #1208091
    hardatwork
    Member

    I know all that…but you would never catch a chassidish couple dead holding hands ever! Some don’t even sit at the same table on Shabbos. Isn’t it contradictory??

    #1208092
    The Frumguy
    Participant

    I was born and raised in New York and I find the “minhag” (for lack of a better word) repulsive. The Kallah is kept on the other side of the mechitzah throughout the wedding in a majority of these types of chasunahs and all of a sudden she is put in front of the crowd for all to see and (almost) dance with – gartel notwithstanding. I, too, don’t see how this could be considered tzanuah.

    Besides the tircha of holding back the mishpacha and extra hour to 90 minutes, the only ones who seem to enjoy it is the badchan (raking in the cash by the hour) and the musician (the same applies).

    I’m sure you realize by now that I’m a Misnaged (and proud of it) but I personally do not remain behind (even for mishpacha) for the “Mitzvah Tanz.” Is it really a “Mitzvah”? Does anyone know the source of such a practice?

    #1208093
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I was always wondering what Chassidim whose minhag is to do a Mitzvah Tantz do by a chupas niddah where it will be glaringly obvious to everyone sitting there.

    #1208094
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    akuperma- a gartel is only used for non-family members. Chosson and Kallah dance holding hands.

    #1208095
    FIA
    Member

    As akuperma mentioned, this is an an ancient minhag. It is brought down in Machzor Vitri (circa ~ 11th century CE). Further, by the end of tantz, which is when the chosson and kallah are the final participants and is typically quite late into the night, ONLY immediate family should be there. Also, the minhag by even many who do not have a mitzva tantz (i.e. Chaim Berlin’s minhag) is that the choson and kallah hold hands in public from the end of the chupa into the yichud room.

    #1208096
    EY Mom
    Participant

    TheFrumGuy – generally speaking, only close family remain for the mitzvah tantz, that’s no stirah to the mechitzah the rest of the time. Furthermore, in many communities, the kallah’s face is covered.

    The source of the minhag is in the Machzor Vitri. But today, for all intents and purposes, it is a chassidish custom.

    Gamanit, some families have the chosson and kallah with a gartel as well, although they usually fold it up so it is shorter.

    OP – this is not a NY thing. Come to EY and you will see it, too. The chosson and kallah do not really dance; either they sway a bit from side to side or walk around in a circle.

    BTW, as far as I remember, this is not the first thread on mitzvah tantz.

    #1208097
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    But obviously, all the Bochurim dancing around the Kallah is perfectly normal. The problem is when barely anyone is there.

    #1208098
    Sam2
    Participant

    I once tried to prove from the Gemara in Kesuvos 17a that there is nothing not-Tznius about dancing with your wife at the wedding (so long as it is not done in an inappropriate manner). Several big Rabbonim disagreed. I still think I’m right, but I wouldn’t Pasken it due to those who think it’s not a Ra’aya.

    #1208099
    Astrix
    Participant

    I dont sign on unless i have to and this is one time where i will sign on.

    First of all,i dance with my wife by my mitzva tantz.My firends were there but not all of them.It was a very important part for me.Very holy.The minhag has its roots in many Kabbalistic and Chassidic sources.

    I feel like people from Out of Town dont get it and think its only a New York thing because Chassidim dont usually live out of town and its more of a chassidic minhag.

    Also, i think you all need to relax.The minhag is to have a chosson to take hold of his Kallah;s hand directly after the chuppah and all of you who are bugging about them touching..they touch then and that is a halacha that they have to acc to many poskim.Secondly, i think its mamash a beautiful thing for a chosson and kallah to dance together in front of people.Brings Hahsme glory in.BH.

    #1208100
    ReuBrew
    Participant

    It is not only Chasidic. It was a long standing German custom until relatively recently that the chassan and kallah should be seen publicly holding hands after the chuppah. This is to clearly illustrate that they are now married. Although it was not universal in some German communities the chassan and kallah danced together for the last dance of the evening.

    As far as tznius it was felt that this is appropriate for a wedding but not for elsewhere. The chassan and kallah never hold hands publicly again.

    It is similar to the idea that one should compliment the kallah on her beauty at the wedding, but it would be considered not tnzius to do so at some other time.

    #1208101
    ari-free
    Participant

    One should be very careful not to make fun of established minhagim that you do not understand.

    #1208102
    Git Meshige
    Participant

    Dear Hardatwork. Since you are from out of town, as you put it, chances are the following ” Minhagim ” take place at your weddings. Kallah going into the mens section and sitting next to Chosson to watch a few of his friends go nuts. Also what probably happens, Kallah gets raised on a table alongside Chosson on a table, with chosson and Kallah doing interesting dance moves for all to see. The difference between those Minhagim and the Heilige Minhag of a Mitzva Tantz, is that the Mitzvah tantz is an ancient Minhag with deep Kabbalistic sources versus the other “Minhag” that is very questionable interms of Tzenius with no Kabalistic source

    #1208103
    benignuman
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    Presumably they use a gartel when it is Chupas Nida. Harchokos don’t apply yet because Yichud is still ossur.

    I have heard that the reason for holding hands after the chuppa is to be mamshech the kinyan from Chupa to the Yichud room. I know of no source for this however.

    #1208104
    a mamin
    Participant

    ari free: BUMP!

    #1208105
    Astrix
    Participant

    @benignuman

    if i remember correctly i saw in Sefer Nitei Gavriel the source of the minhag is Yitzchak Avine leading Rivkah into his tent after she came to the fields to see him.Pretty sure.

    #1208106
    WIY
    Member

    I was at quite a few mitzvah tantzes. I dont recall any actual dancing of the chassan kallah. More like holding hands and walking back and forth. And for the record no bachurim are supposed to be there.

    If you want to hock about tznius hock about the disgusting prust American minhag of having the kallah (and 50 of her friends) come in to the mens side by the dancing for quite some time. And then everyone tries to show off to the girls how awesome they dance. Pheh. Makom znus.

    #1208107
    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    omg sounds akward in front of the whole wedding crowd?? wow.. i dont think im having that minhag by my wedding!!litvish ppl do this too? never heard of it!!!

    #1208108
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Purple: Don’t worry, I haven’t seen it at litvish weddings, and I’ve attended many.

    #1208109
    moi aussi
    Member

    You never heard of a mitzva tanz? On which planet are you living?

    #1208110
    zvei dinim
    Member

    The ????? ????? only mentions dancing and singing around the Chosson and the Kalla sitting together, it doesn’t say anything about anyone dancing with the Kalla in any way.

    These are the sources for ????? ?????:

    hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8901&st=&pgnum=206&hilite= and hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8901&st=&pgnum=193&hilite=

    SAM2 wrote “I once tried to prove from the Gemara in Kesuvos 17a that there is nothing not-Tznius about dancing with your wife at the wedding”. SAM2 Where’s the proof? rav ??? dancing with your wife is ??? ???? which the Remah in ??”? ?”? brings would be assur.

    So far I haven’t found any early ???? for ??? ??? dancing together, and as far as reasons go, can someone even show me a ???? in a ??????? ??? for that part of the ???? ????, and why it has to be done in public?

    #1208111
    Cheppe
    Member

    How is it any different than the Choson holding the Kallah’s hand when walking away from the Chupa (as some Litvaks do)?

    That is also in public.

    #1208112
    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    i hav seen a dif dance at the end of litvsh weddings.. also akward!!! like a yiddish word for empty nest.. the mother dances w (get this!!) a broom!!! cuz shes sweeping away her last child..

    #1208113
    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    i rlly dont understand all these odd dances.. at my siss wedding there will be noo akward dances iyh!! only reg dancng and mayb a sisters dance too!! (thats not an akward, odd one in my opinion!!)

    #1208114
    benignuman
    Participant

    The dance when the last child is married is called the Mazinka. There are different traditions. In some the mother and the father dance around the bride and groom with brooms. In others the children and close relatives dance around the mother and father with brooms.

    #1208115
    zvei dinim
    Member

    “How is it any different than the Choson holding the Kallah’s hand when walking away from the Chupa (as some Litvaks do)?”

    I’ve seen someone write that’s assur too, but it can be argued that that is only utilitarian – so as not to be ????? bet chupa & Yichud – and isn’t being ???? ???? or anything to do with ????.

    A similar argument would have to be made by proponents of ???? ????, but I haven’t seen it written.

    #1208116
    abcd2
    Participant

    There was group of alien space explorers searching the universe for inteeligent life forms.On their journeys they chanced upon planet earth.

    From their vantage point in the saucer they saw NYC with all its tall buildings and figured if intelligent life resides on this planet it must be there.

    After looking around for five minutes they quickly went back to the mother ship reporting that while once possible, intelligent life no longer exists on the planet as all inhabitants seem backward and furthermore the inhabitants were so unintelligent that they didn’t even recognize the aliens as being a different life form. On they went they continued searching for intelligent life on other planets.(To bad they landed for those five minutes on October 31 otherwise they might have had a different perspective of the human race)

    The same is true with perspectives on Mitzva tantz. While not all do it, it is a very holy Minhag practiced for many centuries by many great Tzadikim.

    It is only because of our superficial knowledge that we cannot appreciate it properly.I am sure if spent more then five minutes thinking about it descriptions such as weird, untzniyus disturbing would not be used.

    (you still might not want to have a mitzva tantz but at least you will know why people have them)

    #1208117
    recipes
    Member

    I’ll tell you what’s funny in my opinion there is a Halacha that a husband and wife can not show Kirvah in public. It’s generally understood that they can’t hold hands in public. So why is this mutar?

    #1208118
    abcd2
    Participant

    The Muzinka/broom dance was bought about by the early not-frum yiddishists and is not a minhag at all.Due to being unaware of its roots and having a yiddishe name it has become more commonplace over the years. Many people are not aware of this.

    Regarding using brooms during the dance around the parents:

    As more then one Gadol I heard basically put it(paraphrasing direct conversations): A Yiddishe mother and father should never, even after marriage of a child mimic sweeping kids out of the house or to give a sign that chasvishalom their jobs are done. Davka especially as they send them off they should always show signs of open homes to the new couple where they could come for advice and IM Yirtze Hashem show that they keep a place where they and their future families are welcome.

    A Rosh Yeshiva (now in the Olam Haemes) was once so upset after witnessing people dancing with the brooms by a wedding that he spoke out against the practice publicly as he realized people were just totally unaware of where the broom dance originated and what it signifies .

    As one older Rav once told me.”It is a tremendous accomplishment to see all children married and the parents (even with a possible dance around them)should be acknowledged but this could be done without the broom.”

    May we have only Simchas in Klal Yisroel

    #1208119
    big deal
    Participant

    Most chassidishe couples have only seen or spoken to each other 2 or 3 times before in their lives. How much chiba do u really think is displayed in this “dance”. Its more like a very somber walk and sincere couples daven then very intensely. Its supposed to be a major eis ratzon.

    #1208120
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ben: I believe that R’ Shternbuch in the T’shuvos V’hanhagos quotes holding hands from the Chuppah to the Yichud room.

    ZD: Look at that Gemara again. He was allowed because there’s no Derech Chibah because she was like a Korah Shel Eitz (I think I once saw a Tzitz Eliezer attempt to answer why there’s no Issur for her but I don’t remember). But if there was a separate Issur of Pritzus of dancing in public then it should have been Assur anyway. Thus, at the very least, we are Mattir this dancing for the purpose of Simchas Chassan V’kallah. I still think it’s a strong Ra’aya.

    #1208121
    yeshivish7
    Member

    In sefer MINHAG YISRAEL TORAH on even hoezer brings a lot of sources and the pshat in the minhag .Now Lets be real by the real chasiddishe chasunas the mitzvah tantz does not look like chibah. And for those people that are not fully chasiddish and adopted this minhag it could look really bad but by the real chasiddishe the mitzvah tantz in my opinion looks like less chibbah than by some litvishe the baddeken.

    #1208122
    yeshivish7
    Member

    I would say that the way some chasanim dance for their kallahs and the kallah waives like a maniac is called derech chibah but I would rather call it pathetic

    #1208123
    benignuman
    Participant

    Sam2,

    The issur of chibah in public is so as not cause hirhurim in others. I don’t think you can bring a raya from an Amoira where it was obvious it wasn’t chiba b’rabbim, to a case of newlyweds where it obviously is chiba b’rabbim.

    #1208124
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ben: But how does everyone know that this Amora with a Kallah dancing on his shoulders isn’t showing Chibah? And look at his answer to his Talmidim. Even if you say that he’s a world-famous Rabbi and everyone knows, not all his Talmidim were.

    #1208125
    WIY
    Member

    Im sure some of the son in laws appreciate the irony of their mother in law flying around on a broomstick.

    #1208126
    WIY
    Member

    Yeshivish7

    Theres no heter for the kallah to come into the mens section period! All it causes is that the boys look at her and of course at her many friends that want to be kallahs and think they belong by the mens section. It also leads to the boys dancing to show off to the girls as well as shmiras eynayim issues and hirhurim.

    #1208127
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Theres no heter for the kallah to come into the mens section period!

    That is true. You will not find in even one sefer that it is muttar.

    You know why? Because there is no need for a heter, because there is no issur.

    #1208128
    bp27
    Participant

    Yserbius123/benignuman – By a Chupas Niddah, there is no Mitzvah Tantz between the Chosson and Kallah at all. Yes, it is very embarrassing!

    That is why in more heimish and chassidishe circles additional precautions are taken to ensure it doesn’t happen. V’Hamyvin Yavin.

    #1208130
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    –Theres no heter for the kallah to come into the mens section period!–

    So you want to be mevatel a mitzvah for people to be mesamayach chosson V’KALLAH?

    So the Chasidish, for the most part, may hold hands after the Chupa and have a Mitzvah Tantz, the Litvish, who don’t, will hold hands in public the rest of their lives!!!

    ;

    #1208131
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Lets put the halachic inquiry on the side for a moment. My nephew is getting married and I am told there will be a mitzva tantz, and of course as a “choshuve” uncle I will be “called up”. Coming from a family of litvaks, what does it mean “called up” by a mitzva tantz. what am I expected to do, or not do. The only marching orders I have from my wife are, “dont make a fool out of yourself”. I am also told that I should be sure to “tip the badchan”. How much of a tip do you give? why would I give him a tip anyway, I dont tip the waiters by the meal, or the musicians after the dancing. Is the badchan hired and paid by someone, or does the bulk of his wages come from tips like the coat room attendant and the valet parking guys? Does it depend on the stature of the badchan, does it depend on what he says about me and how much chanifa comes my way before he calls me up? My preference is to leave after birchas hamazon, but for matter of shalom bayis, I have no choice but to stay and (hopefully) enjoy the festivities.

    #1208132
    golfer
    Participant

    Apushatay, not much is expected of you. Semi-discreetly pass the badchan a few $$ and say something friendly to him. Try semi (or not) discreetly to notice how much your brothers (in-law) or others give him. Take the gartel, or sometimes they have a long piece of fabric with kol sasson etc embroidered on it. This will be passed to you by a cute little boy from the family, the badchan, or other guy who got the job. Try to find the perfect balance between looking directly at the kallah and giving her a big goofy grin (Not good) and looking away, ignoring her, and staring at the ceiling (also not good, unless you are an extremely important Rabbi. Do a liitle tantz, sway back and forth a little and move your feet. No major complicated dance steps expected. Since the chosson is your nephew feel free to approach him before the ordeal and ask him to rescue you as quickly as he can. If not possible you can also ask the chosson’s father for the same favor. They”ll walk over, take the gartel away from you and then you get to dance with the chosson, his father and the whole mishpuche.

    #1208133
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    apushatayid,

    Also, don’t forget to hand $500 in cash to the stranger standing nearby who will be wearing a yellow polka dot tie.

    When and where is the wedding?

    #1208134
    old man
    Participant

    The old yekke minhag is for the chosson and kallah to walk arm-in-arm to the shul on the morning of the wedding, when the kiddushin is perfomed in the afternoon or evening. It’s called Chupas Mein. Just like a husband and wife holding hands in public, there is nothing untznius about it. Minhag Yisrael kadosh.

    #1208135
    bp27
    Participant

    apushatayid – Trust me the badchan gets paid a nice fee, he is not living of your tip. $5 – $10 is more than enough.

    Enjoy your first Mitzvah tantz – you’ll see its not as bad as your Litvishe friends make it out to be. You might even come to agree to those of us who know that bringing the Kallah in to the men’s side during dancing is significantly less tzniyusdik.

    #1208136
    FIA
    Member

    old man: That wasn’t the custom in the TIDE Kehila of RSRH, and I question whether that is a legitimate “minhag”.

    #1208137
    old man
    Participant

    Oh, it is a very legitimate minhag. As you no doubt know, ?? ????? ???? ???? .

    It is thoroughly documented, including pictures, in Rav Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger’s well known “Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz”, Vol. 4. I’m surprised you’re not familiar with it. Nothing like doing a little homework before casting doubts..

    #1208138
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I never heard of looking at the Kalla. You hold the Gartel, dance from side to side three or four times and drop it.

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