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Joseph, if you reread my two posts, I did not say that the MT of today is not BASED on the MT of the machzor vitri (As you incorrectly paraphrased).I said, I dont necessarily think it is done the same way. That comment is in line with the rest of the discussion here about what the problems may be. Perhaps in the earlier mitzva tenz, they didnt hold hands etc. I dont really know. But its not a forgone conclusion that the way it is practiced by chassidim today is the way it was done way back, thats all. (I am not familiar with how the machzor describes it. Care to enlighten me?)
Cherrybim, are you sure that in previous generations there were no mechitzos by weddings? And was that everywhere?
As a side note, if you read “the world that was”, “all for the boss”, or talk to old timers, it is clear that they feel that the yiddishkeit we practice today looks quite different than it used to in europe in many ways. in some ways we became “frummer”, in other less so.
Think BIG, thanks for pointing out my oversight. And I agree that very well may be. As was mentioned earlier today on this thread (or another?) practices change (non-ikur) over the course of history as we unfortunately forget how our elter elter ziadas did things.
Think Big: Yes, and I ‘m talking 60’s; 70’s; and certainly before. These were Yeshiveshe weddings that I attended both in New York City and other cities (I would was not from NYC but would come in from Yeshiva).The m’saderei kiddushin at these weddings were established “giant” Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim of that era. The two major NY bands then were Rudy Tepel and Joe King.
RUDY TEPEL and JOE KING!!! boy this is a blast out of the past!!! Rudy was the trumpeteer ( I think) and indeed it was the chassunuh band par excellence!
I was not going to mix in in this discussion but cherrybim is absolutely right. In the fifties and sixties ( I am not sure about the seventies) the chasunnos often did not have a mechitza and, dare I say, there was even mixed seating at times. The minhag chnaged because of the influx of the chassidim and their insistence upon mechitsas and the yeshiva oilam complied.
To think big, do you know why, in the past, the chasunos often were on erev shabbos??
The answer was pure economics. People did not have much money for food and, by scheduling the chassunoh on Friday with the seudas on Shabbos, they saved money as they were able to combine the chasuno seudos with the Shabbos seudas!
I’d like to go back to the origianl poster’s questions which was was the problem with the MT.
IMHO, the answer is, nothing really. But the more important question is “What’s good about the MT?” Or put differently, Where’s the “mitzvah” in the MT?
Yes I know, it is a minhag that has been practiced by kedoshim and tzadikim. I don’t question that. But at the risk of enflaming the “minhagim are more important than halachos” crowd, I respectfully say, “No they aren’t.” It’s a minhag. If chazal didn’t see any diference in distinguishing between minhagim and halachos, they wouldn’t have bothered identifying the minhagim.
In this generation we have gotten so caught up in our fervor to preserve minhagim, that it has often come at the grave cost of the very real and tangible issurim d’oiraisah of “Lashon Horah and Ono’as Devarim”. As we approach Tisha Baav” Let’s take a moment to ask ourselves how many times we have gotten ourselves and others upset over matters of minhagim. Are they really worth such anguish?
I would propose the following: Unless you happen to be a noted Rebbe, where having a MT is a forgone conclusion, how about trying this novel apporach. Ask the chosson and Kallah how they feel about it. If either one is the slightest bit uncomfortable with the idea, then ditch it. I’m pretty sure the schar you will get for being msameach chosson v’jkallah will outwaeight the lost “mitzvah” of the MT. And if they both like the idea, they go knock yourselves out.
May we be zocheh to the geulah shleima bimheira.
Yes. Minhagim
cherrybim, thank you for clarifying that. You see, when you said the way it used to be, you make it sound like you are referring to the Alte heim, the way the mesora was for generations. What went on in new York in the 60s and 70s is NO RAYA! the rabbonim had enough to contend with, having just come from Europe. There were so many areas in yiddishkeit that were lacking, that not having a mechitza was a “halbe tzara”. Read All for the Boss to see what challenges they had to fight at the turn of the century.
What I would like to know is what was it like i Europe? Mechitza at weddings or no?
Think Big said:
“What went on in new York in the 60s and 70s is NO RAYA! the rabbonim had enough to contend with, having just come from Europe. There were so many areas in yiddishkeit that were lacking, that not having a mechitza was a “halbe tzara”. Read All for the Boss to see what challenges they had to fight at the turn of the century.”
This is classic revisionist nonsense.
First of all, you downplay the significance of the 60’s and 70’s by comparing it to the 1920’s world of “All for the Boss”
The you mention how the Rabbonim had just come from Europe.
Let me guess, you are the child (or grandchild) of holocaust survivor’s who came to the US after the war. It’s natural of you to think that frumkeit in the US began in 1945.
I’ve got news for you. Rav Moshe Feinstein was here in 1936. By the mid 1960’s he had been here for 30 years!. He attended and was mesader kidushin at many of the weddings we are talking about. I’d think twice before suggesting that he didn’t have enough integrity to object to what he though was k’neged halacha. I’m not saying he necessarily liked it. But if he participated, then he didn’t cosnider it assur either.
And he wasn’t the only one.
Think BIG, very good points. From all the areas of pre-war Europe I am aware of, men and women would be in different rooms for the meal and dancing. They hadn’t used halls and the like.
Do you think women danced in the alte heim! Feh! The only dancing for women was in the bundist circles.
And speaking of the Rav Moshe being m’suder at mixed table weddings. A better statement would be ,,did Rav Moshe have mixed table weddings for his children?
I’m not telling.
Good Shabbos, I’m late because of this YW blog addiction.
TVT, you missed the point in a big way. Unless you just hadn’t read the previous posts that lead up to my comment. For your sake, i will review what lead up to that post.
Cherrybim asserted in a previous post that there were no mechitzos at weddings years ago, intimating that it is another example of an added chumra in our generation.
I then asked him if he’s absolutely sure of that, since I really didnt know, having never heard one way or the other. I was under the assumption that he was talking about the alte heim in Europe,, since most of klal Yisroel in america today came from Europe at some point. (be it post war or earlier–it makes no difference.) Then he explained that he meant 60s and 70s in America.
I asserted, and still do, that even in the 60s , Judaism in america was still very much growing. Before the war, during the time of Papa Herman, zt”l there is little to argue about that Yiddishkeit was weak among the masses, especially the young. There were many wars to be fought. The fact that in the 60s there were no mechitzas is not a raya for me because there were many more things that were still not being kept, like shabbos, Kashrus and Taharas Hamishpacha. I know of frum ladies who did not cover their hair, though their husbands were regular shul goers. Having a mechitza is not an absolute must, so it wasnt the first thing to fight for, even for someone as great as R’ Moshe.
Whatever the case is, if you disagree with me, it’s fine. I was just speculating, and I very well may be wrong. But what I would like to know is what the custom was in Lita, Telz, the Mir, and in the shtetlach. If anyone has elderly relatives they can ask, that would really interest me.
To all you “chassidim” from the “heimishe oilam”:
the mitzvah tontz DOES NOT come from the machzor vitri! it comes from the gemnora, and it is Keitzad merakdim lefnei hakallah. the machzor vitri calls THAT the “Mitzvah Dance”! that DOES NOT include dancing with a women, your wife or other, which is what the mitzvah tonz is. i have been to manny weddings where they have one, and the girl tends to have no clue,(and i have worked at REALLY CHASSIDSHE WEDDINGS) and she gets up and start fumferting around, yes it isnt really dancing in the horah-type way, but it can be concieved as dancing non-the-less. rebbes use a gartel 15 feet long, and the kallah stays put on a chair, and that is only if it is the rebbes daughter, otherwise no gartel is used at all.
the reason why lubavitch and litvish dont do it is because we feel it is assur al pi halacha! a rosh yeshiva not being mesader kiddushin if it is done, i have never heard of, and my rosh yeshiva is a kalta litvak, and i have been to chassonahs where major roshei yeshiva were messader, and there was a mitzvah tonz after, they just get up and leave, if they haven’t already left by then. i did not have one, as it was not MY minhag, regardless of my father in laws minhagim, it made no difference,. when a badchen was hired, i had him unhired. how dare chassidim try to ram their minhagim down our throats. it is disrespectful, as is making comments about my child’s hair because it is cut before 3 years of age. im sorry if my son should look like a male, and not some shaygetz hippie!
chassidishe minhagim have alot of problems, not only mitzva tonz. putting up segulas in cribs of new borns, upsherin, wearing rabbeinu tam tefilin when not worthy (there is no way that by being born to a father who came from a town in hungary or chassidih poland, you are now holy enough to wear rabbeinu tams), not sitting in a succah on shminey atzeres, not wearing tefillin on chol hamoed, and the list goes on and on, not to mention daveing nusach sfard which is it best a nusach that was invented at best 200-300 years ago, depending on the chassidic sects version you daven!
trust me when i say the litvish have very good reasons for not doing these things, the chassidim are the ones who have to give answers to questions! I’m sick and tired of chassidim smashing the litvish because we don’t do all these minhagim you invented 200 years ago, while most of the litvish minhagim, your own ancestors did going all the way back to the baalei tosafaos!
before all you ppl start to say how litvish this and litvish that, just remember ALMOST ALL major mekomei torah in Europe were LITVISH! mir, ponevich, kamenitz, brisk, telz, slabodka, volozhin, kelm, baranovich, novordhok, etc. the list goes on, so when a rosh eyshiva with a pedigree coming from those holy mosdos says it is assur to have a mitzvah tonz, no one may argue! yes you may have your minhagim that disagree, and that is fine for you, but not for us, so deal with it!
Cherrybim says he is not telling if R’Moshe had mixed seating at his childrens’ weddings. Well, he doesn’t have to tell. Rav Moshe Tendler (who is married to R’ Moshe’s daughter) said that there was!
mariner:
If you had even a clue what you were talking about, it would demonstrate a sad state of affairs on your part. Since you don’t, its hardly even funny.
Like some people mentioned earlier, some Litvish Roshei Yeshivos, like Yeshiva ChaimBerlin/Hagoen Rav Ahron Schecter, hold that Choson/Kallah must hold hands after the Chupa. So all your tainos regarding the mitzvah tantz listed, would apply no less to these Litvish Roshei Yeshivos. You display simple ignorance.
Secondly, the mitzvah tantz DOES shtam from the Machzor Vitri, despite your demonstrated lack of knowledge thereof. Machzor Vitri holds from the mitzvah tantz based on the Gemora of keitzad mirakdim. Those Yidden who’s minhig includes a mitzvah tantz, do so based upon the machzor vitri.
Thirdly, Minhug K’Halacha. Your comments reek from ignorance. The minhigum Chasidim maintain, by and large have been practiced for many centuries prior to the Baal Shem Tov. Mitzvah Tantz, Upsherin, Shmini Atzeres out the Succah, No tefillin Chol Hamoed, Nusach Sfard or Nusach Ari Hakodesh, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on.
These holy minhugim have been established by Chazal long long ago. And your trash talking of these helige minhugim is a reflection of you, not of Chazal who established these practices.
Yanky:
Rabbi Tendler also stated that Reb Moshe ZTV’L did not choose him as a son-in-law. So what he did at his chasuna, is hardly a reflection upon Reb Moshe.
to mariner..careful now, all these minhugim that you mentioned wasn’t instituted by lowly shisters (shoemakers) it was instituted by holy tzaddikim of each genration,talmiday bal shem ,and they instucted their talmidim,chassidim to adher to those mihagim.so dont make it sound as just as any tom, dick,or harry started a fad.remeber what gemmorah brochos sais,’hamsaper achar mitoso shel tzaddikim…’see there what happend to one such person..
so we have this new ‘poisek’ its called pictures. can anyone bring reyoh that we pasken from pictures? to have mixed is beferish a gemorroh that even not mixed just the same floor is assur,mesechtes sukkah 51b,-52a which the rambam paskens perek 8 hilchos lulev halacha 12. and this big talmud chochom (as opposed to us am haratzim..according to that poster)just makes it away with a picture(maybe thats one reason we need mechitze,as from the gemmorom sais even ground floor one room and separate is assur, dont know,my own svarah,but this tam you need for those who are so oisgearbed that they don’t have the problem of histaklus and hirhurim,but we and also the holy tanaim and amoroin had this problem see soif mesachtes keddushin we need mechitzes. also your taine ‘dont look, so you are such a oigearbete yid you dont look, what about plenty others who are not so oigearbet..if it is as said that the holy isgros moshe did officiate and participated in such settings it can only be as one poster mentioned that there were so many other issues to deal.also what the other poster said ‘you think yiddishkeit started in 1945’ no it didnt start but that the state of affairs in yiddishkeit exsited as described, yes there were plenty ball madreiges mispachos who with tremendos mesiros nefesh held on to shabbos, kashros etc, etc but wasnt so pahut..the same can be said about ‘PICTURES’of gedolim that wore certain attire..not that there is anything wrong with it…also dont understand from those big talmid chacham as opposed to us am haratzim ,lo shini malbishom is nothing by you?shoin you’ll come with all kinds of non-explantions explanation….
Mariner, whoah! While you are saying that you don’t want the chassidim to say you’re wrong, you have no issue telling them they’re wrong. You seem to have alot of anger about this subject, and I can hear why. I hear your point that the Chasidish way being new(er), so it should be them on the defense, not the other way around. But at this point it has been around for so long, as to be considered almost on equal footing, so what can you do?
I feel that whereas Litvish Gedolim may say the Chassidim are wrong (as did the holy Vilna gaon) the newest crop of Chassidim can hardly be faulted for being born into a Chassidish family, and for them to change their minhag, nusach etc. would be wrong. There are enough chassidish poskim that can answer any of these questions, of why what they do is muttar. Also, many chassanim would not have the guts you had to go against their father when it was their own minhag. When you choose a derech that is different from your father, you have to know how to pick your battles.
I agree that a lot of this comes from ignorance, but from both sides. At this point the Chassidish minhagim (along with their emphasis on segulos etc.) have been around for a while and has affected (for better or worse) even the real true Litvaks. By the same token, one can observe that the emphasis on learning, dikduk on halacha etc. has rubbed off on the Chassidim as well. These days, we see much “intermarriage” and much more cooperation between the two groups. In fact, the term chassidish and litvish have become so vague by now, as to be almost irrelevent.
Let me tell you a beautiful and telling story I heard years ago on this subject. I cannot vouch that the story is true, but the message is certainly worth hearing in our day and age. I will repeat it as I heard it. Anyone who knows the story, or has other details, feel free to add/correct.
Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l and Rav Yoelish Teitelbaum (the Divrei Yoel–Satmar Rebbe) zt”l were once sitting together at a function. Rav Aharon turned to the Satmar Rebbe and remarked what a strange circumstance this was that he, the “leader” of the American Litvaks, and he (Reb Yoel), the unquestionable leader of American Chassidim are sitting at the same table. “What do you say to that?”, he asked him.
Rav Yoelish answered with a parable:
There was once a gvir that had two daughters. He found for the first one an outstanding bachur, a real torah scholar. The son-in-law had one condition to the shidduch. He said he must be given a meat meal every day. The rich man agreed happily.
For the second daughter, the rich man found another worthy so-in-law. This one stipulated that he must be fed a Milchig meal every day. The gvir agreed to this term as well. They all lived together in the same house.
Nu, what can you do? This one wants meat, this one wants Milk, they cannot eat at the same table! So each day, the sons-in-law ate their meals at two separate tables.
In time, the father-in-law’s fortune took a turn for the worse, and he began to have trouble meeting his obligations. The meals went from meat to chicken, from Cheeses to milk. Eventually, he lost almost all his money and all he could afford was potatoes. He turned to his two sons-in-law and said, “When YOU were eating meat and YOU were eating milk, I could understand that eating together was impossible. But now you are both eating potatoes,…we may as well sit and eat together.”
Reb Yoel concluded by saying, “amohl, it was the case that a chassid was a true chassid, and a litvak was a true litvak. It was obvious that they could not work together. But today, the generation is so weak and a chassid is not a true chassid anymore, and a litvak is not a true litvak anymore. We may as well work together and strengthen each other!”
If that was true in those days, how much more so today.
I can only imagine what mariner has to say about sfardim ( i.e. kitnyos )
To GENT:
Rav Moshe proves from the Karban Pesach that here is no chiyuv for mechitza at weddings and other gatherings. He says that multiple families would unite to eat the Karban Pesach. Men and women would eat together without a mechitza since it could not be eaten in separate groups. Rav Moshe brings other proofs as well.
bogen:
1. I never said rav ahron shechter was a litvak, he wears a gartel, and acts like a shtickle rebbe, since he was a talmid of the previous rosh yeshiva of chaim berlin, who hailed from a huge chassidishe family. rav hutner became more chassidish later in life, and rav ahron followed him in that direction.
2. if holding hands and dancing together in your eyes are the same, then you have a point, for the rest of us, we realize that holding hands is nowhere near dancing, and there is zero similiartiy between the two, so the whole rov ahron thing is moot.
3. youre point of the machzor vitri is the one i made, so congrats, the machzor vitri was stating that dancing INFRONT of a kallah is a mitzva, not WITH!
4. the minhagim i stated ALL started after the baal shem tov, and made inroads in the upper hungarian chassiduses around the time of R. Nosson Adler. before then, these minhagim were all asain jewish at best, and many historians, both jewish and non, say alot of these minhagim stem very possibly from goyishah places.
5. none of these minhagim were instituted by chazal, they were at best instituted by achronim. true ashkenazik customs were instituted by chazal, and those would be the ones that sfardim do as well. dont throw chazal around, they instituted very little when it comes to minhagim.
nameless:
Jent1150:
you obviously didnt get my point, the starter of this discussion made it seem as if the litvish need to answer for something, and we dont. the chassidic customs are newer, and that is fact, unarguable. i was stating that i am sick and tired of having to answer as to why i do and do not do different things, and people think i am the one who is changing how things are done. i guarantee if someone started this series and said the same thing about a chassidic custom, lets say sitting in a succah on shmini atzeres, you would smash them for everything under the sun, yet when a chassid slams a litvish custom, you go along with it.
think big: i have no clue as to what you are talking about. i do ALL my fathers minhagim, ALL! i take my minhagim very very seriously. i DONOT follow my “father in laws” minhagim, as i have need, or halachic obligation to. i agree with you %1000 percent, one should not deviate from their fathers minhagim.
(story was great, i enjoyed it and it makes total sense. i dont hate chassidim, i hate the idea that we all have to do chassidic minhagim, and if we dont, or have certain decisions regarding chassidic customs, they get questioned as if we are nuts)
btw, to all of you, you may find that certain roshei yeshiva wont be messader kiddushin if there is a mitzva tance, how about the fact that in every shteeble you cant daven for the amud without a gartel, i find that to be disgusting! (jj, trying to show that this stuff is on both sides of the isle, so to speak)
lemaaseh, when it comes down to it, us litvish need chassidim to teach us how to laugh and be besamaiach, and chassidim need the litvish to teach them to be serious, and then we can great mashiach together and figure it all out then.
[side point, about rov tendler, i heard a tape of him, and he made it seem that the mixed seating came from the feinstein side, and that rabbi tendler said ” who was i to complain – i was marrying the gadol hadors daughter” and btw, he wasn’t picked by rov moshe, since rov moshe didnt pick any of his children in laws, but he did ok them all, and he oked rov tendler. he loved rabbi tendler, and went to them for shabbos and yuntif all the time.]
THINK BIG,
I love the story and it sounds just like the Satmarer rebbe zz’l. He was a real pikeach, even if I do not suscribe to his shitta.
Like you, I was appalled at “mariner”‘s words. I don’t want to be “mekatreg” on anyone but his words sound exactly like what our chachomim told us was the cause of the churban habays….and you all know what I am alluding to….no, not “all shelo borchu batorah techiloh”…but the other one….
Well, this is why I am a fervent follower of Reb Shlomo Carlebach zz’l. He had only love in his heart for Klal Yisroel. Halevai this would be what motivates everyone…
mariner, the reason you litvaks feel under siege and on the defensive as unauthentic Yiden is quite simple. The litvak masses abandoned dressing like Yiden. Chasidim still, and always have, dressed like authentic Jews. So when you walk in the street and see a Jew dressed like a Jew (i.e. a chasid) you feel unauthentic. Yes, many of the Litvish Rabbonim dress like Yidden, but the litvish man on the street with his business suit, and perhaps necktie, looks no different than the goyish buisnessman on the street. A Yid is supposed to look like a Yid – not look no different than a pruste goy.
Btw, if your such a kalte litvak how could you have married a chasidishe/heimishe wife!? Something doesn’t smell quite right about you.
mariner:
1. Yeshiva Chaim Berlin, Rav Hutner ZTV’L, and Rav Ahron are no Chasidim. They are Litvaks.
2. If you can pasken that hand-holding post-Chupa is not only permissable but mandatory, like some Litvaks do (and Chaim Berlin isn’t the only Litvish Roshei Yeshivos that hold this), then you have no taaina on the Mitzva Tantz. Arguing one is a “bigger madreiga” assur, is like arguing something is “partially Jewish.” Its all the same concept. Bottom line is, both are not only kosher but minhug k’halacha, so mandatory. So you lose. Period.
3. The Machzor Vitri IS where the minhug of the mitzvah tantz, as practiced today, comes from. It is based on Keitzad as specified in the machzor and includes alle minhugim as practiced byom hazeh.
4. At least most of those minhugim you mentioned, LONG LONG precede the Besht.
5. And these customs ARE from CHAZAL ZTV’L.
Finally, I’m not sure which mon and pop MT you’ve been to, but any true MT does not include making choizek. Indeed its all about holiness that the badchan talks about at the MT.
And if a Shul has a MINHUG to wear a Gartel, they have EVERY RIGHT to insist that any Shliach Tzibur in the Shul wears one.
zalman, i dont feel under siege because of my clothing, sorry, its a chassidisha thing to care about the outside livush. sorry, but wearing the clothing of the mogolians and early hungarian empire doesnt make you any more jewish then me in my 20th century looking clothing (if you dont believe the shtreimel is mongolian, go to teh musuem of natural history, and go take alook, youll be utterly surprised). you want to look authentically jewish, put on a kafiayh, and the arab cloak thing worn in arabic countries, chances are that is what we wore back then. clothing changes with the time, otherwise we would still be waring the vines of grapes like adam harishon!
im sorry, but a true “chossid” would not have said something as stupid as your comment. i work with many chassidim, and they all are ehrliche yidden, who would never say such stupidity, i believe in zeh vezeh divrei elokim chayim. which means, not slamming one side to prove the other. my attack was to prove a point, that attacking can go on on both sides, and that for some reason, its always the litvish getting attacked, and im sick of it!
seriously, you really think that clothing is what makes me think the litvish minhagim are under siege? what clothing you wear is irrelevant to me, i was not brought up that it makes a difference. you want to wear shmona begodim, gezuntah hayt, but dont for one moment think your clothing is any more jewish then mine. your clothing is from not only pruste hungarian/polish goyim, but ones who slaughtered jews by the thousands during tach vetat, so dont even start about my clothing being the same as pruste goyim today. (again befaore people get appalled by what im saying, realize i am answering this poster bec of his attack, i am showing that attacks are bi-directional, but for some reason everyone here only sees it when chassidim are attacked!)
rabbiofberlin: i have no clue what your appalled by. nothing i said is appalling at all. and to prove that im not making the attacks on litvish up, look at the post from zalman and youll see what i mean. and if you dont want to be mekatreg someone dont, dont beat around a bush and say you dont, bec in essence you are. you are no better then me on these posts, and you know it. i may have said something you dont like, but im sure in your myriad postings on this and other sites, you have ticked people off as well.
ujm,
1. rav hutner came from a chassidishe family, sorry! youre wrong! this is a fact and is not negotiable! his family was sorta gerrer to some extent, yet he learned in litvish yeshivos, but big deal, does that make the current noviminsker a litvak and a yekke, after all he learned in chaim berlin, taight in skokie, and taught in kaj! i think everyone agrees his a chassidishe rebbe, not a litvish rosh yeshiva. the fact is it is well known that rav hutner leaned chassidish in alot of what he did (lubavitch claim the rebbe had alot to do with it, though his talmidim all doubt that) his learning was litvish, no doubt, but yeshivas chaim berlin does not follow the norm when it comes to litvish mehalech.
2. again, dancing and holding hands are not the same. otherwise, when an old couple walk down an aisle holding hands, there should be a mechitza, because according to you they are dancing.
3. where in the machzor vitri does it allow a male that is not a womans husband to dance with her? ok, i agree you may hold that what is being done at a mitzva tanz isnt dancing, and the litvish disagree, but both hold holding hands IS NOT DANCING! holding hands and dancing are 2 differant halchos!
5. what? chazal? you clearly have no idea who chazal are refering to. chazal is in the times of the mishna, and last i checked, none of this stuff is from then, so again you are wrong! show me where in any mishna or braisa, or even an sifri or sifra it states any of the minhagim i said, and ill agree that i was wrong, otherwise you should agree i am right! im not saying there isnt a makor for these minhagim, just that the makor isnt from chazal. the term chazal has always meant tanaic and pre tanaic times, since the term comes from the gemorah, and it never in the gemorah refers to amoraim, which it would since it was compiled around 100 years after the majority of the later amoraim were niftar, and there were only a handful of them left.
and again, if a shul has a minhag, correct then it is their right, and if a rosh yeshiva has his psak, IT IS HIS RIGHT! if he doesnt want to mesader a kiddushin that will have a mitzva tanz, HE is in HIS RIGHT! the original poster to this discussion does have a problem, and that is exactly my point! you made it for me, congrats!
and any mom and pop mt i have been to is similiar to most, and a badchan in nature is a jokester, or in its literal translation, a jester! how that isnt a person making chozek, i dont know, but you claim your jesters are serious ppl who are doing holy things, gezunta hayt, maybe im not holding on a high enough madreiga to see how making fun of the families in good natured fun is holy. sorry.
mariner:
You keep repeating the same mantra over and over in the hopes of fulfilling the false prophesy that if you repeat a lie often enough it will become the truth. But we Yidden don’t believe in such nonsense. You can repeat another 5 times, and it will still not be true.
Your history is legend, and your facts are fiction.
There is a saying in chazal, “hane-elovim ve-einon olvim”, so I restrict my answer to mariner by just pointing out the reason why I though his comments were “appalling”‘
You wrote (amongst a lot of other stuff)”almost all major mekomei torah in europe were LITVISH…mir,ponevtich…etc” I hate to break it to you, but Jews did some learning in Warsaw, Cracow,Pressburg,Sanz,Liadi,etc..too.
You seem to confuse the yeshivos with mekomos hatorah. And-may I point out that the majority of poskim in Europe were not of litvishe origin.(check it out out). It is not right to demean people that you never met.
Additonally, you question virtually every minhag that the chassidim have (upsherin, not sitting in the sukkah on shmini atzeret..etc…)ALL of these minhagim have a solid basis in halacha. Incidentally,not putting tefilin on chol hamoed has the better of the argument.
I had a long exchange with Think Big over some of the words that I have used in the past and I admitted to be in the wrong. I was determined not to “bad-mouth’ anyone and I think it owuld be advisable for everyone to do this and debate the issues on its merit.
BY THE WAY, Rav Hutner zz’l was NOT of chassidsiche origin. He was of Ashkenaz origin,although not necessarily Litvish. (I heard this from his own mouth) and the only reason why he was somewhat close to chassidus was because he grew up in Warsaw, not exactly a litvishe place. Also, you claim “his learning was litvish”. “bemechilas kevod toroscho”, his learning was eons away from litvish learning. Whether in his “ma-amorim”,which definitely were not litvish, or even his pilpulim and his sefer on Nozir, his learning was a far cry from litvish.
Anyway- I suscribe to the Torah of a blue-blood yekke, who learned in the litvishe citadel of Lakewood and turned to chassidus. His Torah was one of unlimited ahavas ysroel. I mean, of course, R’shlomo Carlebach zz’l.Kein jirbu komohu beyisroel.
Will all you children please grow up? There is no more machlokes between the “misnagdim” and the chasidim. This isn’t circa 1800’s.
mariner:
Nusach Sefard was NOT established by the Baal Shem. Please fact-check before commenting. It is in fact a variant of Nusach Ari, and shtams from the AriZal Hakodesh, who long preceded the Baal Shem. The Chasidim adopted the same nusach.
the reason why we chassidim wear shtreimlech and bekitches is bec. of TRADITION
not Because we care what we look like outside!!!
u might want to calm down by the way
mariner,
Why do you feel all defensive? Who is putting the Litvish on the defense? You said that “how dare chassidim try to ram their minhagim down our throats?” But which Chasid is “ramming it down your throat”? And you said that “its always the litvish getting attacked, and im sick of it!” By whom? Which planet are you living on? Some fringe area? This isn’t the mainstream reality. You have quite an imagination!
You said that “i believe in zeh vezeh divrei elokim chayim. which means, not slamming one side to prove the other.” Well walk the walk, don’t just talk the talk.
You said that “the chassidim are the ones who have to give answers to questions.” You are a no one to tell anyone they have to answer questions.
“chassidishe minhagim have alot of problems” you said. I think YOU “have a lot of problems.”
mariner, look at all the machlokes you caused right after tisha b’av!
ok, all of you, lay off of mariner. It is obvious that he was talking out of anger, and frustration. We all get frustrated at times. The reason why he was angry, I thought, was because it is frustrating to feel like you need to defend yourself when you are in the right. True or not, we can all relate to that feeling one way or another.
Rabbi of berlin, I was not “appalled” by his words, as you phrased it. I simply felt there was alot of energy there. Lets all try to debate the points in question, not the people in question.
Zalman: I feel your comments are entirely offensive without any basis for them. Where do you get the idea that mariner feels “inauthentic”? I thought it was just the opposite: he feels HE is the authentic one, and thats what his point was.
In regards to the clothing issue, your idea of the “jewish” mode of dress is supposed to look like the picture of the shtetel yid, yet you seem to forget about 4000 years of jewish history! My husband often (only half-jokingly says) that if Chassidus would have started in Texas, all chassidim would today be wearing cowboy hats and boots. Think about it. Theres alot of truth there.
It may interest you to know why the chassidim dress like they are stuck in a time-warp, while the non-chassidim dress more “modern,” like a “prusta goy,” if you will. I heard this bit of historical fact from R’ Avrohom Chaim Feuer, Shli’ta. I don’t know what his source is, but its enlightening just the same.
He says that in Europe, at a certain point in history, (not sure when) the powers that be made a decree that Jews were prohibited from dressing in a manner that makes them look like Jews. Some of the rules were that men were forbidden to sport beards, long jackets…and the women were forbidden to wear kircheifs. The penalty for disobedience was death.
The chassidish Rebbes felt that this decree is a case of “yeharog v’al yaavor”, and instructed their chassidim not to follow the new laws. The Litvish Rabbonim felt that its assur to risk one’s life for this, and must be followed. That is when the yidden starting shaving, wearing short jackets, and the women began to wear wigs.
So you see, the issue with clothes is once again an issue with yidden followng the instructions of their own Rabbonim. This remains true until today, despite the fact that there is no death sentence over our heads.
A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.
I would like to report that I had a conversation this week with a Holocaust survivor about how chasunahs were celebrated in Europe, in her hometown. She said it took place in the home, with the meal in the dining room, and the dancing was done in two separate rooms, one for the men, and one for the women. She came from a little town near Hungary. If anyone has info about how it was celebrated in towns in Lita, it would greatly interest me.
“A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.”
I would dispute your “knowledge” in this matter. Keep your bubba meises to yourself. Your last sentence would have been sufficient to state your opinion (“the issue with clothes is once again an issue with yidden followng the instructions of their own Rabbonim.”). That is hopefully the truth, but the “history” that you gave is really just “his story”. Make sure the bubble around your head doesn’t pop.
Think Big,
I heard the same story regarding the manner of dress re Chasidish and Litvish.
“you need to defend yourself when you are in the right” (and “he feels HE is the authentic one”)
Is that a suggestion that one way or another is more “in the right” (or “the authentic one”)?
Think Big, …Which is a credit to the Chasidim for having been able to maintain the traditional Jewish form of dress (wherever that tradition happened to have come from.) Whereas we unfortunately, albeit essentially against our will, have been forced to modify the traditional form of dress at the behest of the gentiles.
squeak:
No reason to get nasty to make your point.
I was careful to quote the Rav who I heard this piece of “his story” from. Just keep in mind that just because you haven’t ever heard of it, doesnt negate its veracity, and frankly at this point I am more open to believing his version than yours. If you think back to the time of early chassidim, you dont find that the “litvaks” dressed differently than chassidim (for example, there is a picture of the netziv wearing long payos). So it makes sense to me that at some point the dynamics changed.
Joseph:
No, I am not judging or “suggesting” which way is more in the right or authentic. I was merely pointing out to Zalman that he was accusing mariner for feeling inauthentic, when it was clear to me that HE was saying that he was the authentic one – based on his logic that the litvish derech was the original one, while “chassidus” was the “breakaway derech”. It is not my place to judge. I have maintained since the beginning of this blog that if one follows his minhag and Rabbonim, he is in his own right.
And yes, it is certainly a credit to chassidim for maintaining their dress, and it is also a credit to litvaks for giving up their dress (the yiddish tzurah) and defer to the wisdom of their poskim. (If you think me crazy for paralleling the two, consider the case of the time when Rabbi yisroel Salanter paskened that no one may fast on yom kippur due to the plague. I’m sure it was diffivult to give up such an awesome mitzva, but they did it because the Rav paskened like that.)
(sigh) You incorrectly assume that I had not heard the “his story”. I had heard it. I wouldn’t expect you to believe my version of the events, especially considering that we don’t know each other. What I am saying is that you would do well to not present urban legend as “historical fact”.
If it was truly punishable by death, and it was truly ruled to be “yehareg v’al ya’avor”, then how are there still Chassidim? They should have all been wiped out within a year of the “decree”, dressed like Jews as they were.
Interesting also, that both you and Joseph seem to be aware that the Chassidic “traditional” dress came from Polish noblemen and yet you seem to think that this is traditional Jewish garb. Never mind that not all Jews are from Poland, but our tradition dates back from before Polish nobles existed and before Jews ever showed up in Poland. So at some point, they changed their manner of dress to match the respectable dress of the day, in the LOCAL tradition, and simply didn’t change it when they got to America. The short/long jacket is a matter of style, not Halacha L’Moshe Misinai. C’mon.
squeak, Where a minhug comes from is irrelevant as far as you and I are concerned. We must follow our fathers minhugim, it is as simple as that. There is no need to “research” its background, putting aside whether what you call urban legend is in fact true or not.
If you look back into the not too distant past, Chasidim and Litvaks didn’t dress differently from each other in any significant manner. The Chasidim continue to dress as they traditionally have and the Litvish were forced at some point, for whatever reasons, to change. They weren’t wearing a fedora, suit and tie in Lita 150 years ago.
And grown men weren’t wearing half-pants, stockings and robe jackets 350 years ago either. Nor were they wearing dead animals wrapped around their heads (not the tall and cheap version, nor the short and fat version). Nor were there Chassidim 400 years ago. And Litvaks are a fairly recent invention too. So stop trying to make it sound like the Chassidim have the original garb and that the Litvaks are the copycat/changelings. Each group took the dress of their locality. If it really doesn’t matter, as you say, then just let it not matter. But when you start trumping one way over the other, you’re not saying it doesn’t matter.
As someone posted in another thread, if the Baal Shem Tov lived in Texas, all the Chassidim would be walking around in cowboy boots and ten gallon hats.
lesschumras,
Thats assuming that Goyim wore Shtreimels at one time, a specious argument at best. So I think that logic fails. (For the record, I don’t wear a Shtreimel, Bekeshe, etc.)
joseph, for one, ill assume that you meant suspicious, not specious, as specious means beautiful.
there is nothing to assume here in regard to goyim wearing shtreimels. you can see it with your own two eyes that hakodush borcuh hu so nicely gave you. all you need to do is go to the museum of natural history, and go to the area i think called the hall of civilization, or something like that, and go see for yourself. you’ll see Mongolians wearing shtrimel type hats, as well as the hungarian empire kings. i can assure you that mongolians and hungarian kings were the furthest thing from being jews. they were barbarians at best.
mariner,
Main Entry: specious
Part of Speech: adj
Definition: plausible but not true; based on pretense; sophistic
(Webster’s New Millennium Dictionary of English)
specious means what you think it means, but is not a good word to describe the argument that the Chassidishe garb was worn by “chosheva” goyim before it was adopted by Jews (unless Jews were the fashion designers back then too as they are now).
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