Mixed Seating

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  • #877054
    mdd
    Member

    Loyal Jew, who made this issur?

    #877055
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the Book by Hanoch Teller about Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach

    He talks about some fund raising dinner where there was mixed seating.

    One of Rav Shlomo’s talmidim complained to the Rav about the mixed seating and how could this be allowed. Rav Shlomo gave the talmid a sharp lesson in Dereach Eretz, and then sat next to his wife (Rebbetizen Auerbach).

    #877056
    oomis
    Participant

    “Oomis, they were walking-dancing in circles. It was not real dancing. “

    Wow! You must be really old, kinehora, to have witnessed that! 😉

    Even if it were only as you describe, that is still feels like this is a case of them parading before the young men and being ogled.( I’m sure it wasn’t, though).

    #877057
    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: So you’re saying that your Mesorah is irrelevant because of “where the oilem is holding”, whatever that means? So I assume that statement means that you no longer have any complaints about “MO”?

    #877058
    Josh31
    Participant

    “according to where the oilem is holding today, it’s assur not only because of what it might lead to but in and of itself. It’s not a chumra but rather the main consideration in any public event and sometimes even in our homes”

    According to you, the “oilem” is empowered to write new torah at will and need not to connect it to something in the original Torah.

    Who is this “oilem”? Do 10 powerful Kanoim constitute an “oilem”?

    “and sometimes even in our homes”

    That means women in the kitchen for Shabbos meals.

    #877059
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Zeeslite,

    your attitude what I have against chumras. I have no issue if you want to take on every Chumra possible. I do have an issue when you are condescending and judgemental towards those who don’t hold the chumras. We were evicted from Gan Aiden because of the world’s first chumra

    #877060
    mdd
    Member

    Oomis, it appears so from the choice of words of either Gemora or Rashi there. It also explains why that Gemora is not a proof to allow real dancing without mechitzah.

    As far as parading goes, it was not a problem — they were single girls in need of a shidduch.

    #877061
    haifagirl
    Participant

    We were evicted from Gan Aiden because of the world’s first chumra

    I love that. I’m going to quote it. I hope you don’t mind. Unfortunately I can’t attribute it to you, unless you let me change your name to fewerchumras. 🙂

    #877062
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    “We were evicted from Gan Aiden because of the world’s first chumra”

    Highly doubt that, else the adage ??? ???? ????? would have been an aveira. HaShem gave us this mitzva, over and over we are told ????????, holy, more holy. Written Torah, oral Torah, Medrash etc. It’s foolish to argue on this point. All the gedarim and harchakos of Chazal – cases our eviction…

    If you have anything to say about Adam HaRishon, it him not giving over the fact that it was his own harchaka.

    One more thing, ????? ???? ???? is also a Mitzvah, same mitzvah as keeping men away from women etc. If you want others to GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to respect and befriend you, it’s a chumra! Think about it.

    #877063
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Haifagirl. You may quote without attribution

    #877064
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its funny how some seen to know the Halacha better than Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.

    #877065
    mdd
    Member

    Zahavasdad, please! I can find plenty of Gedolim who disagree with your shittos.

    A specific response: he never said it is not a ma’alah to do it. Others, for sure, hold it is better to have separate seating. It is also obvious (look at my previous posts).

    #877066
    oomis
    Participant

    else the adage ??? ???? ?????

    It also says lo tosif. and kawl hamosif goreya.

    #877067
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    oomis: ?? ????? and ?? ?????? ???? are when one adds to the mitzva of HaShem. He says eat in a sukka seven days and you’re adding more. He says wear four parshios in tefilin and you’re adding a fifth. When one is doing it as an harchaka, it’s commendable. As I myself wrote, Adam’s misstep was he didn’t indicate that it was his own safeguard.

    The very first mishna concludes with ???? ????..??? ?????? ??? ?? ??????.

    #877068
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    First, my point is that the issur on mixed seating has nothing to do with whether boys can “restrain themselves,” it exists on its own and cannot be set aside on the grounds that “we are mature,” the women aren’t really dancing, etc. Second, by “oilem” I’m referring to those who are on the program, which by definition should be everyone who posts here. They are backed by countless examples of daas Torah holding that today, because of feminism, conservatives, MOs, and declining standards of conduct generally, things that could be excused a generation ago have become dangerous. So, saying that various gedolim allowed “x” in their time doesn’t create an everlasting heter or really a heter at all.

    #877069
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    NO Gedolim Disagree, what they might say its BETTER for seperate seating

    I have been to plenty of affairs with MIXED seating and Gedolim were there.

    I have also been to affairs with Seperate AND Mixed seating and while the Gedolim sat in the seperate seating, they stayed for the entire event.

    I personally had a simcha (within the last 12 months) where I had mixed seating and someone well known came and knew it was mixed seating (I told them before the event) . His only request was that he sit with his wife and immediate family in a seperate table which I was more than happy and able to oblige AND he gave a Devar torah at this event

    #877070
    mdd
    Member

    Zahavasdad, I did not say it was assur.

    Loyal Jew, all this staff that you said can not establish an issur. Go learn how Halocha works.

    #877071
    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis: ?? ????? and ?? ?????? ???? are when one adds to the mitzva of HaShem”

    ZK, repsectfully, that is exactly what chumros are. They add on strictures to the already perfect mitzvos that Hashem gave us, albeit with the best of intentions. If Hashem did not in His Infinite Wisdom seem to feel those chumros were necessary, then why do we presume kivyachol to think He did not do the job right the first time?

    Do we know better than He, what Man is capable of doing? I am playing Devil’s Advocate here, just a bit, because when I hear certain thoughts expressed by many posters (whose beliefs and opinions I respect, even if I may have another opinion), it is clear that those posters believe that they alone have the universal clue and know what Hashem wants. That is a dangerous attitude that causes sinas chinam in Klal Yisroel, and we have not learned that lesson yet. While those harchakos may bring that one individual closer to Hashem, it potentially is a harchakah of a very different and undesirable nature, when it is marchik other Jews from Hashem and from the klal.

    If you have a machlah, i.e. a strep throat, and your doctor prescribes one antibiotic pill per day of a certain dose, does it heal you faster, better, or even at ALL, to take TWO pills per day? And even if by some chance, you do get better, should you look at another person who also has strep, and demand that he, too, take two pills (because it was SO helpful to you) when the doctor told him the palliative dose is one? And worse yet, when he actually FOLLOWS his doctor’s instructions, should someone look down his nose at the other guy, because he didn’t do it HIS way??? That is essentially what I am seeing today among different factions of Jews, each of the opinion that THEIR way is THE way. Is this truly what Hashem wants?

    #877072
    mdd
    Member

    Oomis, look in “Mesilas Yeshorim”, chapters about prishus and chassidus.

    #877073
    mdd
    Member

    Oomis1105, but you are right about the ga’avah and the sinas chinom.

    #877074
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    OOMIS:

    First of all, as I wrote before, the first Mishna proclaims the purpose of gedarim and chumros. Did HaShem want krias shma to be said only until chatzos? That was a gezaira of chazal. Do you eat afikoman before chatzos? Another gezaira. Again. I think most of talmud is busy with gezairos and “derabanan” (could be). “To distance man from sin”.

    About sinas chinam – I don’t think that’s a cause for some not to become better in a certain aspect. If others are jealous – JOIN. For instance, Iv’e heard in New Square they have separate sides of the street for men and women. How many times have I heard “the other camp” ridiculing etc. Iv’e NEVER heard one of them poking fun at those who don’t. Same with a lot of other communities, issues. Any time it comes to an issue of betterment in “BAIN ADAM LAMAKOM” they come with their battle cry “chadash asur”, “less chumros”, “HaShem is perfect” etc. They’re not hurting you. Let them live too.

    One more issue here (and I suspect it does NOT apply to you, OOMIS). Rabbi Miller zatzal said many times ???? ??? ?????, a person is best evaluated according to what he praises – according to what EXCITES him. Here we have on who is excited over his Creator, he’s constantly singing His praises ???? ?? ?? ???. We have another who’s constantly praising Gedolei Yisroel. Then we have another who always get’s excited at a “chumra” someone else, or anther community is doing. Always downplaying avodas HaShem. OOMIS, I know this is NOT you. You always have ?? ???? ???? ???, HaShem’s name is constantly mentioned in your posts, I suspect all the more so in actual real life (as if this isn’t real life). We are bidden to ????? ???? ??? ???? ????, this world is a race to come as close to HaShem as possible, (and as far from gashmios too). I highly doubt that running around all day looking for less chumros (while being at heart a functioning Jew), will get anyone to a runner-up.

    #877075
    Sam2
    Participant

    Zees: You miss the point of those Chumros though. Chazal weren’t searching out Chumros to constantly make people more Machmir, which is what R”L, a small portion of the community does now. Chazal added Takanos and G’zeiros when they saw that people were having trouble keeping to the D’Oraisas without additional Harchakos.

    Oh, and if you eat Afikomen before Chatzos it’s to be Choshesh for a Shittah that Chatzos is D’Oraisa (R’ Elazar Ben Azaryah), not because of the first Mishnah in Brachos.

    #877076
    mdd
    Member

    Zeeskite, denail is not a place in Egypt. A lot of times, by a lot of people, chumros lead to ga’avah and sinas chinom.

    #877077
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Zeeskite

    You just don’t get. I’m not jealous of you and I personally don’t care how many chumras you adopt. That is your right and privalege. Just don’t define those who don’t follow you with descriptions like bare minimum Jews.

    #877078
    Feif Un
    Participant

    ZeesKite: As I had said I would, I submitted a new thread with what I heard at the shiur regarding chumros. For some reason, the mods haven’t approved it yet. Please don’t think I forgot about it!

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