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  • #1821071

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Women’s Schar Torah comes by their helping their husband and sons go learn Torah.

    They also get schar for learning, so not sure why that’s relevant here.

    #1821082

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avi K, it only says no mechitza. It does not say mixed.

    #1821182

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Avi, see the teshuva on shiva houses, and there’s another one on shiurim. In both he says that since they’re open to the public they must be segregated.

    #1821249

    It seems to me that according to the Rambam, Talmud Torah 1:13, most
    women don’t have the mental focus. Maybe they could if they really tried.

    Tell that to the women taking high-level university courses.

    #1821263

    Joseph
    Participant

    Do you disagree with Chazal and Halacha?

    #1821368

    Avi K
    Participant

    Milhouse, actually he wrote that if one or two women come to a shiva house the men can daven there without a mechiutza. He did say what you said about a derasha but only lechatchila (OC 8:11). I still don;t undertstand what difference an invitation made. Maybe he thought that since the derasha was meant for kiruv purposes the women might not dress properly. One could say that כלל הציבור means that the general public would come.

    BTW, I asked a rav who is a talmid of Rav Soloveichik and he said that RS’s motzaei Shabbat shiurim in Boston had mixed seating. He did say that when Rav Schachter came to speak at his shul he said that he “preferred” separate seating but did not say that there should be a mechitza.

    #1821409

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Avi, the difference an invitation makes is clear: it’s the difference between a public gathering and a private event. His shita is that private events don’t need to be separate, public gatherings do. It’s got nothing to do with how people dress.

    It’s not surprising that he says one or two women, on a casual basis, is OK — he says is the case even in a shul, so of course it’s also the case at a shiva house.

    #1821541

    Do you disagree with Chazal and Halacha?

    Is that for me, Joseph?

    #1821548

    Avi K
    Participant

    Milhouse, so what do you think id the reason? Suppose there is a gathering to which anyone can come but for whatever reason it is clear that only as few will actually come. Now suppose that someone sends invitations to everyone in the phone book with a Jewish-sounding name. Would the former require a mechitza but the latter not? BTW, as I posted, he only says that there should be a mechitza lechatchila but adds that if people will not come otherwise it need not be cancelled.

    #1821632

    ‘It seems to me that according to the Rambam, Talmud Torah 1:13, most
    women don’t have the mental focus. Maybe they could if they really tried.

    Tell that to the women taking high-level university courses.’

    It is davka for the high university level young women that “tiflus”-which by the way has at least 2 more interpretations, is more pertinent.

    Furthermore it is your crowd which gets down on one knee for the Rambam and claim to build your whole view around him
    but will smirk at him when it doesn’t coincide with your preset agenda

    #1821704

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rambam above is very strange. First he says, women get a reward for learning. It does not say but women should not be learning on their own, which would logically follow, but he says that the father should not teach the daughter. Why do you get a reward for something you should not be doing? This indicates that they are not obligated but can learn on their own.

    #1821708

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Maybe, if she learns on her, shows willingness to learn, she will be more careful not to jump to conclusions and misunderstand, whreas if the father forces her to learn, she will not exert herself to understand.

    #1821796

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The above should be she learns on her ‘own’.

    #1821804

    Joseph
    Participant

    Random: Yes, that comment was for you. Also read the comment answering you from “It is Time for Truth” addressing tiflus in response to your point.

    #1821810

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph did you look on my comments on the above Rambam?

    #1821816

    MDG
    Participant

    “It seems to me that according to the Rambam, Talmud Torah 1:13, most
    women don’t have the mental focus. Maybe they could if they really tried.”

    “Tell that to the women taking high-level university courses.”

    First of all, taking such classes does not prove real Daat. It depends what they are studying. STEM OR poetry, education, or psych.
    Even so, the Rambam agrees that there is a Miut who have such Daat.

    #1821827

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, she also gets rewarded for putting on Tefillin.

    #1821837

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, tefilin is not tiflus. Why would she be rewarded for something that is not good for her?

    #1821886

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Interesting, I never understood the Gemara like that

    There must be something inherent in a father teaching his daughter

    but now I’m starting to think that it’s the father’s חיוב to teach and she wouldn’t learn by herself

    #1821900

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    So, there is a difference in teaching a boy or girl. A girl forced will resist the learning and jump to conclusions and misunderstand whereas the boy will come to appreciate the pleasantness of the Torah.

    #1821907

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, right. So a woman putting on Tefillin is less of a problem than a woman learning Torah Shebal Peh.

    #1822003

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, you are missing the point. If it is tiflus, why does she get rewarded? A person who eats garlic and her mouth smells you don’t encourage them to eat more by rewarding them for eating it.

    #1822063

    Joseph
    Participant

    She gets rewarded for Tefillin too. And Tefillin doesn’t say she risks tiflus. So anyone encouraging women to learn Torah Shebal Peh, despite the huge problem of tiflus, should surely first encourage even more strongly that women should wear Tefillin, Talis and Tzitzis, which doesn’t have tiflus associated with it.

    #1822067

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, I say that from the Rambam we see if she learns on her own she gets rewarded because there is no tiflus as she is willing to learn and be careful to understand and not jump to conclusions whereas if the father teaches her usually by force, she will jump to conclusions without fully understanding it which brings to tiflus.
    Tefilin you get rewarded because there is no tiflus but according to you why does she get rewarded for tiflus?

    #1822074

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    Tiflus is going against the one that says he should teach her because it would save her for a few years

    The מאן דאמר that says Tiflis means she shouldn’t be taught at all even if she wants to be taught

    #1822075

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why are you asking that of me? It is Chazal that warn that she’ll engage in tiflus.

    #1822080

    Avi K
    Participant

    RE, it doesn’t say not.

    #1822091

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Where does it say she cannot learn on her own? Some great women, such as Devora and the SMA’s wife who learned on their own. The Chasam Sofer’s daughter Hindel, explained perek shira why the צפורת הכרמים says
    אשא עיני אל ההרים ‘מאין יבא עזרי, iit says that this bird’ of the wineyard’s oil put on the forhead helps for zechira but there is an answer protecting the bird from being killed is to learn 101 times, so מאין adds up to 101. From learning 101 times its help will come.

    #1822101

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, Look up the Sefer Alei Tomor on the Yerushalmi Sotah (3,4) who brings from the Sefer Mayon Ganim from Rav Shmuel Harkavolsi 5313 who says that they can learn at an older age.

    #1822106

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, what does he consider to be an older age for such women?

    #1822124

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    These are the words:

    עלי תמר סוטה פרק ג הלכה ד

    ר”א אומר המלמד את בתו תורה מלמדה תפלות. בתורה תמימה פרשת עקב י”א י”ט מעתיק משו”ת מעין גנים לרבי שמואל הרקוולסי מה שכתב אל אשה
    חכמה אחת בנידון היתר תלמוד תורה לנשים וז”ל בהמשך הדברים, ומאמר חכמינו כל המלמד את בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תפלות אולי נאמר כשהאב מלמדה בקטנותה דוודאי כה”ג איכא למיחש שרוב נשים דעתן קלות ומבלות זמנן בדברי הבאי וכרובן כן חטאו מקוצר רוח, אמנם הנשים אשר נדב ליבן אותנה לקרבה אל המלאכה, מלאכת ה’, מצד בחירתן בטוב במה שהוא טוב הן הנה תעלינה בהר ה’ תשכונה במקום קדשו כי נשי מופת הנה ועל חכמי דורן להדרן לאדרן לחזק ידיהם לאמץ זרועותיהן וכו’ עשי והצליחי ומן השמים יסייעוך עכ”ל. וע”ז מעיר התורה תמימה, ולא נודע לנו מי הוא זה המחבר הנכבד הזה שעמד לחדש דין מחודש זה בסברא בעלמא ע”כ. ולפענ”ד כדברי הרב מעין גנים מבואר ברמב”ם הלכות ת”ת פ”א הי”ג וז”ל, אשה שלמדה תורה יש לה שכר אבל אינו כשכר האיש מפני שלא נצטוית וכל העושה דבר שאינו מצווה עליו לעשותו אין שכרו כשכר מצווה שעשה אלא פחות ממנו, ואעפ”י שיש לה שכר צוו חכמים שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד אלא הן מוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן. אמרו חכמים כל המלמד בתו תורה כאלו מלמדה תפלות. בד”א בתורה שבע”פ אבל תורה שבכתב לא ילמד לכתחילה ואם למדה אינו כמלמדה תפלות עכ”ל. הנה שדעתו היא שדווקא האב לא ילמדה תורה אבל אם היא חכמה שחשקה נפשה בתורה ולמדה מעצמה הר”ז משובחת ויש לה שכר שאינו מצווה ועושה. ואכן יש הוכחות לזה מדורות הראשונים ועד דורות האחרונים. שכבר על בנות צלפחד בן חפר אמר חז”ל בב”ב קי”ט חכמניות הן דרשניות הן, ודבורה הנביאה היתה שופטת את ישראל וא”א למשפט בלי תורה שבע”פ, ובתוס’ גיטין פ”ח שהיתה מלמדת דינים לישראל, וכן אמרו במגילה י”ד ששבע נביאות עמדו להן לישראל, ואמרו בנדרים ל”ח שאין הקדוש ברוך הוא משרה שכינתו אלא על חכם וכו’. וברור שגם נביאה היא בכלל זה ואין חכמה אלא תורה.

    #1822188

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The above Mayon Ganim is a gavra rabba whom the Tosfas Yom Tov, being in his time, at the end of Tamid quotes.

    #1822520

    Avi K
    Participant

    RE, that what a few hundred years ago. Even one hundred years ago the situation began to change. Thus, bot the Chafetz Chaim and the Imrei Emmet approved of Bet Yaakov. As I previously posted, Rav Soloveichik approved. Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch wrote “The fact is that while women are not to be exposed to specialized Torah study or theoretical knowledge of the Law, which are reserved for the Jewish man, such understanding of our sacred literature as can teach the fear of the Lord and the conscientious fulfillment of our duty, and all such knowledge as is essential to the adequate execution of our tasks should indeed form part of the mental and spiritual training not only of our sons, but of our daughters as well. (The Hirsch Siddur, 122)”. In our day, this might certainly include wider areas than he envisioned. In fat, there have always been talmidot chachamim. Beruria bested her husband Rabbi Meir (Berachot 10a). The Maharshal’s grandmother was a rosh yeshiva and poseket. Rav Mordechai Eliahu’s grandmother bested the Kaf haChaim in Halacha.

    #1822533

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avi K, maybe eis laasos laSHEM applies also by the women. See my post above from Alei Tomor a contemporary.

    #1822572

    Joseph:
    No. My statement was addressed to someone suggesting a particular
    reasoning behind them. (Now that I think about it, though ” women
    taking high-level courses” aren’t “most women,” so my response
    might not have been valid.) What IITFT wrote, while relevant to the
    topic, is similarly irrelevant to my statement.

    Would anyone care to list the explanations of “tiflus?”

    #1822590

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tiflus, Not to concentrate as women are more towards feeling than thinking according to the Myers Briggs Personality Test, and jump to conckusiions and misunderstanding their learning.

    #1822607

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Randomex,

    From what I understand tiflus as is that she wants to do what she wants and will use the Torah to make it that way

    It’s the opposite of פרישות and we know women want to be with anyone (רצה אשה בקב ותפלות)

    #1822630

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb eliezer,

    I think you’re getting confused with דעתן קלות

    #1822649

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, her self interest influences her interpretation which does not contradict what I wrote above.
    Even Korach was influenced because of his self interest. His argument was not logical as he did not explain what makes him more worthy to be Kohen Gadol than Aaron.

    #1822712

    It’s the opposite of פרישות and we know women want to be with anyone (רצה אשה בקב ותפלות)

    Are you sure that’s what tiflus means in this context – being with any
    man (it sounds more like an explanation of “Tan du mi’l’meisav arm’lu”)?
    Also, whatever פרישות means here, it’s seems it’s not good for women:
    .רבי יהושע אומר: רוצה אשה בקב ותפלות מתשעה קבין ופרישות
    .הוא היה אומר: חסיד שוטה, ורשע ערום, ואשה פרושה, ומכות פרושין, הרי אלו מכלי עולם

    #1822749

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, read what I quoted in hebrew above from Sefer Alei Tomor.

    #1822757

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Rav eliezer,

    I thought I responded to that (I guess I didn’t) he’s (the one that says tiflus) arguing on the one that says save your daughter (for a few years) by teaching them Torah

    It seems that the one that says tiflus is saying don’t teach your daughter

    Let me ask you if she “taught herself” will she have zechus Torah to save herself

    Sorry if I’m not clear, I’m not a good writer to put my thoughts into words

    #1822784

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, I expressed my thoughs in reply # 1821708 above.

    #1822824

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    That doesn’t answer my point Reb eliezer!

    I wish I could be clearer in typing

    I’ll try again when I get to a computer

    #1823639

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ok, I’m Finally at a computer and can copy and paste and type better

    from Hebrewbooks (I copied the part of the Mishnah)

    אומר בן עזאי חייב אדם ללמד את בתו תורה שאם תשתה תדע שהזכות תולה לה ר”א אומר כל המלמד בתו תורה (כאילו) לומדה תפלות

    according to Ben Azai he’s saying save your daughter by teaching them so she should know that the zchus helps her live longer, and if he didn’t teach her this she wouldn’t know it otherwise because she wouldn’t learn it on her own.

    if that’s the case then she would never learn it on her own (especially since it was taught before the Gemara from mouth to mouth (Torah Shebaal Peh) so then it doesn’t matter if she was young or not

    I hope I’m clearer now!

    #1823663

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, tiimes have changed as I said because of es laasos, so currently she is allowed to learn on her own.
    Rebbi came after them. Look at Avi K above. The Magen Avraham argues but the MB 263,27 paskens like the wife of the SMA to make a brocho first then light on Yom Tov. See the Chidushei Chasam Sofer Shabbos 24,2 on the mishna not to burn kodshim on Yom Tov, says that she goes leshitosa lighting Yom Tov early as Shabbos.

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