Modern Music…..prohibited?

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  • #621766

    Joseph
    Participant

    “I can guarantee you that you will not see a good end to your own life.”

    rabbiofberlin, You claim to be Novi too?

    #621767

    Sarah
    Member

    Zalman and Berlin,

    Can you possibly try to write with more civility? Your manner is completely inappropriate for a Ben Torah.

    Itzik,

    It is not necessary to translate all of your thoughts into writing. Particularly negative ones. Isn’t Motzi Shem Ra and Lashon Hara infinitely more important than your personal perspective of a fellow Jew?

    #621768

    blue shirt
    Participant

    To Zalman,

    I am sorry, but lesschumras is essentially correct. He may have used some colorful language, but his short analysis of Jewish history is basically true. I will gladly provide you with some sources if you would like. If you insist on only frum sources, that can be done. I hope we can agree that in almost all (if not all, you never know if there is an exception)yeshivos, european jewish history of the last 500 years is not taught. Individual gedolim, halacha, chidushim, minhagim, yes. History and sociology,no. And so, we have to learn it on our own.

    #621769

    foanne
    Member

    As a histiricl writer for a profession and as a researcher of Jewish history I hate to inform zalman that although lesschumras was a little extreme his opinion from a historicl point of view was peretty accurate. Thake that from a professional.

    #621770

    Itzik_s
    Member

    well, the “rosho” itzik stays up late on motzei shabbos to continue denigrating the holy Yidden, like all “resho-im’ in our history. Don’t worry about boiler rooms “le-achar missah” I can guarantee you that you will not see a good end to your own life.


    BS”D

    LOL. You should have a refuas hanefesh bekorov mamash.

    #621771

    tzippi
    Member

    re rabbiofberlin on itzik’s future: I recently read that there is an opinion that ayin hara isn’t relevant anymore but when I hear one yid give such a klala to another, I get concerned.

    #621772

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Tzippi, thanks for your concern but simcha poiretz geder and I am laughing my head off at the silliness of the empty klalois that are being directed my way from Berlin.

    As for my personal perspective of a fellow Jew, if you mean Berlin, I don’t take him seriously. If you mean Carlebach, well, just as it is our duty to speak out against the molestors of today, it is our duty to make sure that one whose nonsense opened the door to all sorts of perversions at the fringes of the community is exposed as such so that others do not follow his example or continue to revere his memory. A quick look at the Chofetz Chayim makes it very clear that speaking out about someone who passed himself off as a frum spiritual guide while committing issurei skila vesreyfo is not LH or MSR.

    #621773

    Zalman
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin, Where, pray tell me, have you become privy to G-d’s deliberations? Who are you to declare someone evil? Who do you think you are to confidently (“guarantee” in your words) predict someones downfall? Refuah Shelamo!

    blue_shirt:

    PLEASE. Show me the sources. And yes frum sources. The fact that you had to mention that point, demonstrates where you are coming from. How could you even contemplate non-Jewish (read:anti-semitic) “sources”? You have NO SOURCES, since none exist!

    lesschumras falsely claimed that:

    “Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

    of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais. They stayed frum out of habit.”

    Show me that:

    1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

    2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    3. “They stayed frum out of habit.” (i.e. Had they been “non-ignorant peasants” they surely would have “liberated” themselves and become nice frei goyim.

    Per your offer, I (and others here) eagerly await your response with your sources. You cannot show me a reliable source for even ONE OF THESE THREE canards.

    Morah Sarah: Thank You! (seriously.)

    #621774

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    If I am indeed a rosho, then at least I will bring joy to Yidden when I die, because it is written in Mishlei: “ubeavoid reshoim rina” – when reshoim die there are shouts of joy. Unlike others, whose krumkeit brings no joy to anyone in this world or the next…..

    #621775

    Zalman
    Participant

    blueshirt,

    And the source for 4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “taslmedai chachamim”

    #621776

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Well, I realize that people are not taking me seriously. The irony is that all of you think YOU know what the Almighty wants for us but when I point out the obvious, you all take umbrage.

    Sarah- Please read al lthe postings before you jduge the writins. I reacted to the pernicoious and despicbale words of Itzik. Such words must be denounced, lest we are asked at the “jom hadin” why we didn’t protest these excecrable words. If yo uagree with them , I am sorry for your neshomo.

    In a nutshell, The “rosho” itzk has written off (at least) two- thirds of am yisroel and insulted tens of thousands of holy neshomos. If you all are all right with his words, then I suggest you look at how elijahu hanovi will act “be-acharis hajomim”- “lo bo letameh…” “veheishiv lev ovos al bonim..” and much more.

    The “rosho”s approach negates all of this. For this desecration, I am convinced he will pay a price. If this involves “ayin horah’, it will not be mine- but the disapproval of all those gedolim and kedoshim who sacrificed themselves to bring back any Jew and all jews throughout the centuries,from Avrohom Ovinu onwards.

    In line with the gemoro berachos, however -I hope that his “rishus” brings him back to the truth. “Yitamu Chatoim min hooertz”. So, if he makes theshuvo,I am sure Hakodesh boruch Huh will forgive him in this month of Elul.

    #621777

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am really cracking up this time!

    “rosho” itzk has written off (at least) two- thirds of am yisroel and insulted tens of thousands of holy neshomos.


    Even Carlebach’s handful of leftover followers would never claim that he influenced 2/3 of am yisroel or had anything to do with tens of thousands of holy neshomos. He was a FREAKJOB who was part of a spiritual menu for a dwindling crowd of fellow FREAKJOBS.

    I still remember that concert in 1990 on the Upper West Side. The 2 yeshivaleit and I who were there for the music looked as out of place as we would have in a nudist colony R”L. We were probably the only ones in the crowd who knew a single posuk that the mamash a gevald freakjob was singing….and let me tell you I was so inspired that I did something I never had done before or have done since at a concert or other function……you know, it was mamash a gevald, so high, so holy that I just couldn’t bear to see the holy Reb Shlomo hug and kiss all the heiliger maidlach freakjobs because I wasn’t holy enough to hang out with the meshuggines wearing such weird clothing and makeup that looked like 1968 in 1990 that you know, mamash, I WALKED OUT, never to return or to voluntarily listen to Carlebach again.

    Even an acquaintance of mine, who is a big fan of his music describes Carlebach in the most unflattering terms possible without slipping into nivul peh. Someone I knew from the old days when I was just becoming frum and whom I would describe as very modern, was very turned off by his constant displays of physical affection toward her when she interviewed him for a Jewish publication.

    #621778

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Oh, and if you really did follow Carlebach, you would not call me or any other Jew a rosho. He could not control himself and he was a menuval of the first order, but his krumkeit was the peace and (free) love of the 60’s, not the kind of nonsense you are spouting here about reshoim and yom hadin.

    #621780

    lesschumras
    Participant

    At least Zalman didn’t deny that the Neviim, Tzedukim, Hellenizers and Karaites existed. Purim took place because our ancestors were out partying with Achashvarosh! Menashe, perhaps the most evil king in our history, ruled the longest and brought avodah zora into the Bais Hamikdash!The Gemorra describes, how in the times of the Bais Sheni, the office of Kohen Gadol was often sold to the highest bidder and the chachomim had to tutor them on their duties on Yom Kippur. Entire masechtas are devoted to issues of Jewish merchants defrauding each other (short weights, borrowing first quality oil/fruits/wine and paying back with lower quality etc). I’ll provide the Middle Ages sources for you. As far as conversions went, I didn’t say they were unhappy Jews, just ignorant. Conversion was never a real option unless you brought something of value to the church. As a rule, people who converted were lost in no man’s land, no longer accepted by their families, but also not trusted by the church. The Inquision was designed for this. One of our misconceptions is that it persecuted Jews. It actually couldn’t care less about Jews; it went after converted Jews who they viewed as potential heretics.

    There is a community living in Italy that converted en masse centuries ago that Catholics still refuse to intermarry with. Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that the Jews by habit gave up their frumkeit. There were many anecdotal stories of Jews flinging there talleisim and tefillin into New York Harbor during the great waves of immigration of the late 19th and early 20th century .

    So Zalman, other than Artscroll, what are your sources?

    #621781

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras.

    You failed to address Zalman’s 4 points in his two follow-up comments (3 in the first and the fourth above.)

    I would also add to provide your source for:

    “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”

    You have no sources for these falsity’s since none can exist for an untruth.

    #621782

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    The only reason the Chassidim and Misnagdim finally stopped fighting each other was because they realized that so many Jews were leaving both of them. I will provide the sources but they won’t be Artscroll.

    #621783

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph and Zalman,

    By the way, neither of you have provided any proof of your points of view, other than to say I’m wrong. With all due respect, just because you say so doesn’t make it so either. Artscroll is not acceptable proof.

    #621784

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    You made the (false) contentions, you need to back up your words instead of ducking the issue when you have no sources.

    We eagerly await your response to Zalman’s four aforementioned points, and the one additional I added.

    #621785

    HaKatan
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin, I’m still curious where you got your semicha from.

    Your responses to this post-seminary young woman seem, to me, misleading.

    Music has a powerful effect on the Neshama; that is not debatable. Your point about how the gedolim must be wrong because so many people became religious through R’ Shlomo Carlebach Z”L is fallacious; IF, and (since I do not know either way) I emphasize, IF he was incorrect in his methods and his music was deemed by the rabbanim to be inappropriate to listen to, THEN no amount of good that comes out of it makes it worth listening to it.

    Since you seem to have the same false notions about Zionism, I’ll bring Zionism as an example. The Torah greats came out almost uniformly and quite vehemently against Zionism and its state, and with the benefit of hindsight and history we see clearly (if we choose not to pull the wool over our own eyes) just how correct they were that Zionism was and is a massive disaster for the Jewish people, on many levels, despite the “silver linings in the cloud” (and, if history and facts are your guide, that’s really all they are, at best).

    Put briefly, a mitzva HaBaah BaAveirah, is….an Aveirah.

    As far as the girls coming out to greet the young men on Tu BiAv and Yom Kippur, it wasn’t a singles bar scene, I can assure you. Practically speaking, our personalities, interests and hakpados are so much more complex today than they were then, that a gathering like that described in the mishna would seem to be a waste of time and, instead, serve to provoke taava, CH”V, rather than promote marriage.

    I happen to agree that rather than running after kol koreis, one should follow Pirkei Avos, “Asei licha Rav”, and direct one’s inquiries to that Rav.

    Ksiva VaChasima Tova to all of Klal Yisrael.

    #621786

    anonymouse1079
    Participant

    I hadn’t heard of any issues with music until now (other than certain concerts being cancelled). Can someone please tell me the source or reasoning behind this? I myself listen to music mostly on Erev Shabbos to keep company while cooking and cleaning

    #621787

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    To “ITZIK” ” Yitamu chatoim min hooretz”. My hopw is that you will make teshuva. Your postings have dismissed Breslover chassidim, baalei teshuva of all kinds,Yidden who struggle with their yiddishkeit and only want to get better, and every moosad who has done Hakodush Boruch Huh’s work in bringing back rechokim..I am not going to address your vulgar and despicable words anymore, as you have done everything CONTRARY to divrei chazal and every Yiddishe giant we had since Avraham Ovinu. May Hakodesh Boruch Huh bring some semblace of teshuvo in your heart.

    #621788

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Hakatan, I don’t have the time to enter into a long drawm out debate with you (as I have in the past with Joseph).

    You believe that every godol is infallible. I do not. You think that the chareidim have the only word on everything. I do not. You ignore history and avoid looking at the truth ,I only look at the truth.

    These differences are irreconcilable.

    Yes, I believe that Zionism was the instrument yo bring us back to Eretz Yisroel, and, in spite of the obvious shortcomings,is clearly Hakodesh Boruch Huh’s work. You think that it “was and is a massive disaster for the Jewish people”. How you reconcile THAT statement with the truth is beyond my understanding. Obviously, your eyes do not convince you.

    You write that “no amount of good that comes out of it makes it worth listening to”. Quite obviously, you never heard of “Eis laasos lashem, hefeir torusechu”.

    For your information, R”Moshe Feinstein clearly states that it is “muttar” to listen to his music, regardless of what his behavior might or might not have been.

    The concept of “mitzvah habo-oh beaveira” is only for the one doing it, the results may very well be recommnedable.

    Lastly, about the “girls coming to greet the young men on TU Be-av and Kippur was not a bar scene, I can assure you.” Apart from the fact that you were not there to tell us how it was, the gemoro clearly tells us ” Kol mi she-ein lo isho, poineh leshom”. Every one who did not have a wife, went there. It may not have been a bar scene, but it sure sounds like a singles weekend. (See also what the girls themselves said).

    And, why would you say that such a meeting would provoke “taavah” but not marriage, something which is patently incorrect?

    To conclude, anyone can listen to any music he/she likes. My point was that a lot of music that was frowned upon previously has been shown today to be of holier origins.

    #621789

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    reformrabbiofberlin, I am sorry but it is now Elul and the next Yom Tov is Rosh Hashanah, not Purim.

    #621790

    lesschumras
    Participant

    to Joseph from Aish Hatorah( and once again, just because you say I brought a false accusation, doesn’t make it so. You allege I am wrong, well , document it.

    by Rabbi Ken Spiro Initially a movement largely of the poor and uneducated, Hassidism introduced Kabbalah and spirituality into everyday life.

    The Hassidic movement — the movement of the “pious ones” or Chassidut, in Hebrew — was founded in the 18th century in Eastern Europe by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer, who became known as the Ba’al Shem Tov, which means “Master of the Good Name.” His teachings revolutionized the demoralized, persecuted Jews of Eastern Europe.

    After the pogroms and massacres, (see Part 49), large parts of Eastern European Jewry had slipped into dire poverty. In addition to the tremendous physical destruction wrought by the Chmielnicki massacres, the tremendous disappointment caused by the false Messiah Shabbetai Tzvi (see Part 51) left much of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe in a collective state of deep depression. One of the victims of this situation was Jewish scholarship, with only an elite few studying in yeshivas while the rest eked out a meager living. As a result of the decrease in scholarship, Jewish religious life suffered — with the average Jew not connecting either intellectually or spiritually with God. And this is what the Ba’al Shem Tov sought to change.

    THE OPPOSITION

    Another significant concern of the Vilna Gaon was de-intellectualization of Torah. The Hassidic movement was largely a movement of simple, uneducated Jews, and he worried that Jewish scholarship was going to be replaced by singing and dancing. A religion that was a synthesis of heart and mind would become all heart and no mind.

    Finally, the Vilna Gaon, and many other rabbis strongly objected to the fact that the Hassidim had changed the text of the prayer as this was considered a serious break with tradition and wholly unacceptable.

    In hindsight we see that the Hassidic movement contributed significantly to the revitalization of Eastern European Jewry. It kept a lot of people connected to Judaism who could well have been lost because they didn’t have the time to study. And the pressure brought by the misnagdim against the hassidim acted as a brake in keeping them from going too far.

    THE SPANISH INQUISITION

    The Inquisition we are going to cover now is the Spanish Inquisition, which began officially by papal bull issued by Pope Sixtus IV on November 1, 1478.

    Unlike its earlier version, the Spanish Inquisition sought to punish Jews who had converted to Christianity but were not really “sincere” in their conversions.

    There was another reason for the Inquisition, which had little to do with the sincerity of conversions. Once Jews converted to Christianity they had an open access to the playing field, economically and politically. And, of course, they prospered mightily. That engendered a lot of hostility from the Christians – a pattern we have seen in Jewish history ever since the enslavement of the Israelites by the Egyptians.

    The Christians began to call converted Jews “New Christians” to distinguish them from the “Old Christians” i.e. themselves. Derogatorily, Jewish converts to Christianity were called converses meaning “converts,” or worse yet marranos, meaning “pigs.”

    The basic accusation was that these Jews were not real converts to Christianity – they were secretly practicing Judaism. That was certainly often the case. There were large numbers of Jews who would be outwardly Christian but who would continue to practice Judaism secretly.

    Until this day, there exist Christian communities with clear Jewish roots dating back to this time. There are people in the United States (in New Mexico and Arizona) as well as in South and Central America, who are descended from Spanish or Portuguese settlers, and who have strange customs they cannot explain. For example, even though they are Catholics, on Friday night they go down to the cellar to light candles. They don’t know the origins of the custom, but they do it. These people are clearly descended from Jews who pretended to be Christians and yet were practicing Jewish rituals in secret.

    #621791

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    You are beating around the bush, instead of documenting the flase allegations you leveled against klal yisroel.

    Specifically you said:

    1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

    2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”

    4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”

    5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”

    You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations you leveled.

    (The only two things you touched — and just barely — was that some poor uneducated Jews joined a movement and some Spanish Jews were forced to convert by the Inquisition.)

    Your original statement was:

    “Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

    of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    #621792

    lesschumras
    Participant

    By the way, Zalman never did reply to my points re Jews worshipping idols ( as seen throughiut Neviim ), the Tzedukim, the Hellenizers, the Karaites etc )

    #621793

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Music has a powerful effect on the Neshama; that is not debatable.

    In my experience, whenever someone says that something is “not debatable,” it often is extremely debatable.

    The Wolf

    #621794

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Apparently you only see what you want to see in your fantasy world. If you want to believe that every Jew in prior generations were learned tzadikkim, there is nothing I can do. But, other than your protestations, you haven’t showed where I am wrong. When Napolean granted equality to Jews, the yeshivas emptied out. If they weren’t “frum out of habit ” why did so many European Jews leave frumkeit as soon as they had the chance?

    And, the time period I am referring to in your quotes was in Europe. Can you show me yopur proof that only “some poor uneducated Jews joined a movement ” . If was only a few, why was the Vilna Gaon so concerned?

    #621795

    jphone
    Member

    Back to MUSIC for just a moment (it is the subject of this thread). Did anyone happen to listen to JM in the AM this morning? At approx 6:45 a song was played that made me turn off my radio. For those who remember the J. Geils Band from the 20-30 years ago and their most popular song “Angel”, did it bother you to hear the exact song sung to the words “hodu lahashem ki tov”.

    Before I get attacked by the holier than though crowd for knowing who this band is, or what their popular song was, let me add that quite a few people were humming along to the tune as they heard it on the radio this morning shopping in the store that was playing the show. Probably plenty more enjoyed the song as they listened to the web archives while not knowing the source for the song.

    HOlier than though crowd, who will attack me for knowing of this band and their music, do you have any issues with a popular radio host playing these types of songs? Do you have any issues with “heimishe” people who never heard of the original band or their music listening to this music and enjoying it? I think I read here “mitzvah habaah biaveria….” from a member of this crowd.

    Just wondering what people think.

    Personally, because I know the origin of the song and the original words, I couldnt bear to listen to the tune sung to a portion of Hallel.

    #621796

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    You continue to beat around the bush. I challenged your original statement, ON 5 SPECIFIC POINTS. Please let us all know where you came up with such baloney for THOSE 5 AFOREMENTIONED POINTS.

    #621797

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to jphone….

    I have no idea who that band was or is…so i cannot judge the appropriate nature of the tune. Maybe the singer “purified” it like “Solo Kokosh Mar” from the kalever.

    On a more serious note….now do you see why Shlomo’s songs are appropriate? At least, they are jewish and original.

    #621798

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    You obviously believe the best defense is a good offense. You’ve deftly avoided proving any of your points by ignoring and/or dismissing my points and proofs and labeling them as false. You clealy refuse to believe anything that upsets your world viewpoint. Once again, any facts to support YOUR charges? I’m still waiting.

    #621799

    jphone
    Member

    Rabbi: The words to the original song can be found on the web, if one wanted to find it. When you see the original words, it really doesnt matter how “pure” one makes it. If you know the original, you wouldnt want to sing ANY words of tehillim to that tune.

    Others:

    The bashing of individual singers, mentioning them by name, and calling them all sorts of nasty things is as least as assur as the music they claim is assur. Was a heter obtained to name an individual and drag his name though the mud?

    You dont like the music of an individual? His (her if your a woman) voice? His tunes? The music chosen to accompany the tune? The lyrics. The chosen venues for performing? Fine. Dont like it, dont buy it and dont listen to it. To drag the name of someone who isnt even alive through the mud, is disgusting, at best and probably violates numerous halachos of lashon hara.

    #621800

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    Logic is not your strong point.

    This is what you said:

    “Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

    of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    These are your words that I asked you to source:

    1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

    2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”

    4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”

    5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”

    You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations.

    So please NUMERICALLY respond to each of these 5 questions separately.

    It is obvious you cannot since it is rubbish.

    #621801

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras, What charges of mine? I ask you only to answer the above questions based on your false statement.

    #621802

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Our ancestors in the middle Ages and in Eastern Europe were ( except for the 1%

    of taslmedai chachamim ) were ignorant peasants living on shtetls who could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    These are your words that I asked you to source:

    1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.”

    2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”

    4. that ONLY 1% of those ignorant peasant ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”

    As I stated in my response and quoation from Aish’s website, The Jews of

    Eastern Europe were left destitute ,depressed and religiously exhausted

    after the series of pogroms and false messiahs. The educated elite were

    not concerned. What Chassiddus offered to the masses is what made it

    so poewerful and attractive and why the misnagdim fougt it so. Wher is

    your proof that ” som jews joined a movement”?

    Once given the chance, why did so many yidden leave frumkeit. Again, I don’t understand your logic.

    I’m required to bring documentation, which you don’t believe and won’t

    believe because it upsets your idealized world view. You also ddn’t adress my pointr that the reason the Gemara spends entitr masecjtas on how to deal with false

    witnesses, people who cheat in business is because we are human beings, not perfect.If you want to believe It’s typical that you still refuse to back up your claims that I am wrong because you obviously can’t. You demand proof from others but will not do so yourself.

    I’m done. There is no use talking to a wall.

    5. “Once the civil restrictions were removed and Jews could live in the cities, the removal of the shtetl peer pressure meant that THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT.”

    You answered and documented none of these malicious and false allegations.

    So please NUMERICALLY respond to each of these 5 questions separately.

    It is obvious you cannot since it is rubbish

    #621803

    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras,

    You need to read carefully without assuming things between the lines. Nowhere did I say that all Jews have always been perfect and that there is no need for judicial remedy or laws to address wrongdoing.

    Your response does not demonstrate as you said

    1. “Our ancestors were ignorant peasants.” and 2. “Our ancestors could barely read the Aleph Bais.”

    I can’t even contemplate how a Jew could call his Zeidas ignorant peasants. And as many am haartzim there may have been, that was never the rule. Our ancestors learnt the aleph bais from a young age, and that was by far the norm. Few of our Zeidas “could barely read the aleph bais.”

    3. “They stayed frum out of habit.”

    Despite your false conjecture, they stayed frum out of a love for Torah and Yiddishkeit.

    4. that only 1% of the ancestors of ours were “talmedai chachamim”

    FAR FAR greater than 1% of our Zeidas were talmidei Chachomim. Such a statement could only come from self-hatred.

    5. THE JEWS BY HABIT GAVE UP THEIR FRUMKEIT

    A minority for sure, and not as you imply the norm.

    NOTHING on Aish’s site (or other sources) CHAS V’SHALOM impugn any of these things.

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