October 13, 2009 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #663594
Therefore all these supposedly Chareidi people are relying on Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik.
Thanks – the above is funnier than even the krumkeit I come up with for Creedmoor.October 13, 2009 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #663595
Kilobear, you can make fun all you want, but are you denying that in EY the Chareidi world does not even allow high school? Everybody knows that the biggest Chareidi gedolim were eish lehava against college, going all the way back to Europe. You can reinvent history if you like.October 14, 2009 2:14 am at 2:14 am #663596mw13Participant
PY – It’s very easy to bash. But you are avoiding my question: do you claim that the modern world is any better than the chardei one?
First of all, where the chardei world has bein adam l’chavaro problems, the modern world mirrors in bein adam l’makom. If “the pinnacle of generations of Chareidi thought” are the mobs in meah sharim, why isn’t “the pinnacle of generations of modern thought” the millions of people who observe torah u’mitzvos either only when convenient, or not all?! Or maybe the crowning accomplishment of modern judaisim should be the theory that the Torah that Hashem gave us “isn’t for today”?!
Second, the very statements you make seem to be lacking in the much-vaunted ahvas yisroel. “The only difference between the radicals and the mainstream chareidim is the use of physical violence.” “The Chareidi world needs to realize that they have ignited these “crazies” with their constant bad-mouthing of Medinas Yisroel and all its symbols.” Your posts seem to indicate that where the chardei is “rife with anti-zionist views and propaganda”, the modern world has “anti-chardei views and propaganda”. Why should their alleged negative views and badmouthing of the zionists be any worse than yours of them?October 14, 2009 3:02 am at 3:02 am #663597SJSinNYCMember
mw13, please define better. I was under the impression that if you follow the Torah (as paskened by your rav), you are an observant Jew. Different people relate to Torah observance differently, and as long as you are within halacha there is no real “better.” I could never lead the life of a chasid and I don’t expect a chasid to live MO. Its philosophically different, but still comes to the same conclusion of avodas Hashem.
I don’t know how much MO you have been exposed to, but the younger generation is more knowledgeable and generally keeps halacha. Our parents generation often did things from lack of knowledge, not a desire to break halacha. Please understand the distinction.October 14, 2009 3:28 am at 3:28 am #663598
For people who consider themselves intellectuals some comments here are pretty vapid. The Chareidim have a reasonable Shita that the Zionist government does not have a legitimate right to function. This Shita was formulated by Gedolim and is partly based upon the fact that the founders of the medinah were complicit in the Holocaust, and also coerced thousands of sefardic children to abandon judaism. Some posters on this site attempt to malign anyone involved with the Eidah as hot-headed zealots. Lets remember that Dayan Weiss, the current head of the Eidah was very highly regarded in England only a few short years ago. Inane, dithering comments about how the Zionist founded a beautiful society, made the dessert bloom etc. are completely besides the point and fail to convey anything meaningful.October 14, 2009 4:08 am at 4:08 am #663599mw13Participant
SJSinNYC – Of course “if you follow the Torah (as paskened by your rav), you are an observant Jew”. Not a question. My posts are simply in response to PY’s posts that seem to be saying that MO is “better” than the chardei world because some of the more radical chardeim are in violation of the halacha. My response was to point out that the more radical MO people tend to also violate halachos, if not the same ones. I did not mean to imply that either one is “better” than the other in any way. I was just presenting the flip side of the coin, to bring out exactly your point.October 14, 2009 4:10 am at 4:10 am #663600
Kilobear, you can make fun all you want, but are you denying that in EY the Chareidi world does not even allow high school?
Instead charedi leaders in EY are coming up with their own system for both men and women where secular learning takes place in a proper environment at the right time.
The main problem in EY has to do with the secular government preventing many charedim from working and has nothing to do with any trends in the US. And the reason this is done is fear that an educated charedi workforce will enter the secular world and cause even more of a wave of tshuva than is already taking place among secular “Israelis” who become Jews again either in or outside EY because they see how empty the Zionist and post-Zionist ideology is and always was.October 14, 2009 4:31 am at 4:31 am #663601
The “Rav HaGaon” considers the Hareidi Shita reasonable, and brings up the tired, ridiculous accusation about Zionism and the Holocaust. This thread is not about Zionism–but does he really wish to go there? Should we discuss the role of his anti-Zionist Hareidi Gdolim in discouraging Jews to leave Europe? Should we discuss the advice of the Zionist Rabbanim at the time?
There a a number of documented sources on this subject–although it is not a topic that is allowed to be discussed in Hareidi circles. However, we can discuss it here, if you wish.
And, if “Haav HaGaon” thinks that the Israeli society founded by the Zionists is “besides the point”, he should not have brought up the Zionist enterprise. That society, whether he approves of it or not, is trhe outcome of the Zionist movement. In that society, Torah learning, by Hareidim and nonHareidim, flourishes. The desert indeed blooms–in many ways.October 14, 2009 5:20 am at 5:20 am #663602
A600KiloBear has no idea of what he is posting about.
The school system developed by Hareidi leaders has no secular subjects at high school level. This is true for both systems; Ashkenazi and Sephardi (which are adminstered separately).
As afa as the secular government holding Hareidim back–quite the contrary is true,. Many programs are in place to train qualified Hareidim to work in specialized jobs. These programs are completely separate for men and women, and include a number of highly technical tasks, such as those dealing with satellite imaging. However, the Hareidim must be trained, and many do not meet even the minimum entrance requirements. Nevertheless, for those who do, the programs seem to be quite a success.
The government is doing all that it can to encourage the Hareidim to enter the workplace. It is only the views of the Hareidim themselves and their Rabbanim who discourage this. Do not atempt to blame the Zionists for the problems caused by your (Hareidi population) lack of education; this was your choice.October 14, 2009 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #663603JosephParticipant
I’ve addressed that canard about discouraging Jews to leave Europe in many threads on YW. Before slandering Rabbonim, search through the YW archives, and you will find them discussed in the appropriate threads.October 14, 2009 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #663605
I have not slandered anyone. And you cannot make the problem go away. I have had some discussion about this with you in past threads, and read your previous posts on the subject. I am also aware of numerous testimonials by survivors documented by Yad Vashem. The subject is not as clear-cut as you seem to think.
I do not bring this up in a vacuum. If people insist on blaming the Shoah on the actions of the Zionists, or accusing us of complicity with the Nazis, I think that it is appropriate to examine the actions of the nonzionist and antizionist leadership as well. These were difficult times for all of us, and for the followers of one Jewish hashkafa to think that the followers of another made a mistake is one thing. To accuse the other of active collaboration is another. I would certainly never stoop to the latter approach. Before you mention slander, you should look to the post that I replied to when bringing up the topic.
Again, I do agree this particular thread is not the place to discuss this.October 14, 2009 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #663606aryeh3Participant
Please do not discuss the “reasons” or who is “to blame” for the Holocaust – we simply do not have the ability to understand it. But we can react. And IMO the way a Jew can respond is to strongly embrace the Torah and halacha and attempt to bring as many other Jews closer to Torah observance as he can. Have children and raise them as Jewish educated Torah lovers. Increase the number of Torah true Jews in the world any way you can.
Please do not discuss the reasons for the Holocaust.October 14, 2009 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #663607
I am talking about the proliferation of post yeshiva and sem practical training institutes, which even prepare haredim for advanced secular degrees such as law, in EY. The government discourages these efforts from getting too far “out of hand”. My information regarding this just so happens to be first hand, not what I read in some rag like Am Ha’Aretz.
A few “good haredim” in the workforce only allows the left to point to the rest of the community and to pat a few poster boys on the back occasionally. Dudi Zilberschlag was one of those poster boys; in a recent interview he said he is becoming far more militant toward the institutions of the medine (though he continues to help its weakest citizens regardless of their level of observance or beliefs via Meir Panim). A revolution of the type that the community would like to see, where its members could live and work as they do in the US, Canada and Europe, would bring about a wave of tshuva which the medine is not ready for. Army service? Too many soldiers as it is; the medine likes the present situation as they don’t need the charedim anyway and then can point to them as shirkers. National service would only expand the Meir Panims out there and yes, there we go again, more tshuva.
Thanks to the deracination of Edot haMizrah immigrants by the medine, EY is the only place where you find convicts bearing surnames like Kadosh, Hasid, Mevorach and yes, Zakai! Their counterparts who got out of the morass or avoided it altogether are successful merchants and professionals in France, the US, Canada and many other places.
As for the horrendous treason of the zionists during the Shoah, it was just proven beyond a doubt that instead of continuing a boycott of the Nazi government that could have brought this malchis harisha to its knees, the zionists accepted blood money and a pitiful number of Jews to stop the boycott. That is what happens when you take the concept of am Yisroel which is kedusha and turn it into the hepech hakedusha of modern, G-dless nationalism.
Immigration to EY? There were not enough visas to go around and we know who took more than their fair share. The whole point was moot and whichever way you look at it Hashem decreed that the leaders of Torah should be saved in order to plant the seeds of Torah in free soil.
The present medine is a toeva that must fall (it COULD have been something else but as we are in golus and the medine is tiff in golus the misyavnim won and are running it into the ground) but to avoid bloodshed let it fall to Moshiach already. While it is our obligation to strengthen Jews living in EY by bringing them to Torah, and the fact is that the medine did happen, it is not any sort of geulah. The medine is to the geula as chas vesholom a malignant cell is to a healthy one.
The medine is like bringing davar acher to the mizbeach because a malchus tuma in Eretz haKoidesh is exactly that – davar acher al gabei hamizbeach (chas vesholom)!October 14, 2009 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #663608
If people insist on blaming the Shoah on the actions of the Zionists…
This on the other hand is not acceptable. Only Hashem knows why the Shoah happened as it did. We only know that the leadership of the porkei ol malchus Shomayim and its actions, which were not undertaken according to Torah priorities, did not help the situation and may have led to the murder of Jews who could have been saved had Torah leadership prevailed. Then again, when there is such a hester ponim, part of the entire process is that reshoim from among us end up destroying us.October 14, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #663609
starwolf: It’s understandable that you need to protect the zionists from attack at all costs, the alternative is to change your entire worldview. Zionist complicity in the Holocaust is considered an irrefutable fact by all historians, only the extent of it is debated. I’m sure you have read perfidy, but check out also “kivshei ha’ashanim ma’ashimim” in hebrew by Rabbi Moshe Shoenfeld z”l.October 14, 2009 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #663610telegrokMember
Last night after dinner I put away the sukkah decorations and then washed the dishes. Next, I spent some time learning, after which I exercised. Finally, I said krias shema and went to sleep. This morning I woke up, showered, and went to shul. After davening I said tehillim, had a cup of coffee, and went to work.
What kind of a Jew am I?October 14, 2009 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #663611
What kind of a Jew am I?
Any kind except Chabad….now to add some fun to this thread let’s see who else knows how I know Telegrok is not a Lubavitcher…..October 14, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #663612cholentkugelkishkeMember
A600KiloBear – Chabad doesn’t put up sukkah decorations.October 14, 2009 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #663613aryeh3Participant
He had decorations in his succah.October 14, 2009 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #663615cherrybimParticipant
telegrok- ” … after which I exercised. Finally, I said krias shema and went to sleep. This morning I woke up, showered, and went to shul. After davening I said tehillim, had a cup of coffee, and went to work. What kind of a Jew am I?”
A Jew that goes to bed all sweated up?October 14, 2009 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #663616
A600KiloBear – Chabad doesn’t put up sukkah decorations.
Posted 36 minutes ago #
He had decorations in his succah.
Yep – tzvye Creedmoorer foodshtempelach and a sectien-acht epplikation for each of you – that was too easy!October 14, 2009 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #663617
So Harav HaGoan mis an expert in what “all historians” know, right. Which historians? An embittered screenwriter? How about a few historians with doctrates in their fields, working at numerous univeristies–not to mention institutions such as Yad Vashem.
How many historians feel that there is Jewish (much less Zionist) complicity in the Shoah? You can find them–in Iran, and among the Holocaust deniers in general. And, it appears, right on these very forums.October 14, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #663618
You’re probably right. Sorry, my mistake.October 14, 2009 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #663619
Ha ha ha, just kidding. Actually youre attempts to rewrite history are so pathetic its embarrassing. Another great book that might remove some of your ignorance is “The Holocaust In History” by Prof. Michael R. Mauruss.October 14, 2009 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #663620
“I am talking about the proliferation of post yeshiva and sem practical training institutes, which even prepare haredim for advanced secular degrees such as law, in EY. The government discourages these efforts from getting too far “out of hand”. My information regarding this just so happens to be first hand, not what I read in some rag like Am Ha’Aretz.”
Yeah, right. First hand information from whom in the government? They discuss state policy with Chabadniks in the Ukraine these days?
“Army service? Too many soldiers as it is; the medine likes the present situation as they don’t need the charedim anyway and then can point to them as shirkers. National service would only expand the Meir Panims out there and yes, there we go again, more tshuva.”
Now you are an expert on the needs of the army? Serve on the General Staff, do you?
National service for Hareidim has been proposed many times, and in many forms. Guess who rejects the proposals each time? (Clue: Their clothing is somewhat monochromatic.)
“As for the horrendous treason of the zionists during the Shoah, it was just proven beyond a doubt that instead of continuing a boycott of the Nazi government that could have brought this malchis harisha to its knees, the zionists accepted blood money and a pitiful number of Jews to stop the boycott. That is what happens when you take the concept of am Yisroel which is kedusha and turn it into the hepech hakedusha of modern, G-dless nationalism.”
Hmm, I don’t see you complaining about the efforts of the Hareidi Jewish community to rescue their Rebbeim and Talmidim. And correctly so. Yet when the Zionists do the exact same thing, it is a crime, according to you. Not everyone need share your priorities. And again, I would be careful about getting into this. Some prominent Rebbeim, after their rescue, did absolutely nothing to rescue their fellows left behind. And they were certainly prominent enough to have made a difference. Do you really wish to get into this topic?
“The present medine is a toeva that must fall (it COULD have been something else but as we are in golus and the medine is tiff in golus the misyavnim won and are running it into the ground) but to avoid bloodshed let it fall to Moshiach already. While it is our obligation to strengthen Jews living in EY by bringing them to Torah, and the fact is that the medine did happen, it is not any sort of geulah. The medine is to the geula as chas vesholom a malignant cell is to a healthy one. “
I personally do not know whether Medinat Yisrael is the beginning of Geula; I can hope so, but I am not a Navi, nor do I think that anyone else in our day is. You think that “the present Medina must fall”? Is that a prediction? Or just a prayer? Do you consider yourself a Navi?
The views of those who reject the Medina so completely are utter nonsense. Torah here flourishes as nowhere else–Modern Orthodox AND Hareidi, under the auspices of the state. As far as your comparison of the Medina to malignant cells–well, I would say that you know as much about biology and medicine as you do about the IDF. That is, enough to know a little about the terminology, but not enough to understand: ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????October 14, 2009 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #663621
Yehuda Bauer is the most biased historian out there and Zuroff is a close second. Ben Hecht is far more than “an embittered screenwriter”, and don’t forget who preceded Rav Lau shlita as head of Yad VaShem.
Still, complicity and bad decisions due to improper priorities and treyf ideologies are very different indeed. There was no Zionist complicity in the Shoah whatsoever, only zionist endangerment and sacrifice of Jews in order to serve the zionist cause.October 14, 2009 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #663622rabbiofberlinParticipant
the only people who are still trying to re-write the history of the Holocaust (teheran, neturei karta…some bloggers here..) are the ones who feel threatened by real history…”oif dem ganef brent dus hittel” (check with your yiddish speaking relative…)the “evil” zionists have moved on long ago and are trying to make TODAY and TOMMRROW a betetr day- free of any future catastrophe, chas veshomom…October 14, 2009 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #663623
The Torah leadership did not sacrifice others or make statements like one cow in EY being worth more than Jewish children. What is more, the Zionists did not even rescue based on ideology; like the camp commandants who signaled left and right depending upon appearance, the zionists saved only young, strong Jews who could work in the fields of their new socialist am ha-aretz agrarian dreamland.
As for my information, I am an international entrepreneur and I wanted to establish just the type of program I mentioned in EY. Somehow, four times, my application for certain assistance offered to entrepreneurs planning to emigrate, was ignored or lost. That is the least of the first hand information I have about both what the medine (meaning the “branja”, leftists like Aharon Barak etc who really rule the country, not necessarily Bibi who at least says the right words) wants to do with charedim economically and the present manpower needs of the IDF.
Stick to your science and your lab where perhaps you are doing some good . Your knowledge of history and the world outside your ivory tower is very lacking and your posts only show exactly what I am saying – that MO comes from a desire to partially assimilate and a lack of emunah.
But don’t worry, your children will be haredi, even if they are professionals. The arrows are pointing our way (from MBD – Yerushalayim is Not For Sale, even though every misleader of EY up to Bibi Take Two has offered it to the highest bidder who pays with the most Jewish bloodshed so far).
EDITEDOctober 14, 2009 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #663624
Eim Habanim Semaicha was written by a Chassidishe Rebbe who blasted the rebbes and rabbanim for telling their flock to stay behind.
EDITEDOctober 14, 2009 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #663625
And FTR, the “vaad”‘s first priority was to rescue only rabbanim, not the regular Jews, so two can play this game.October 14, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #663626
the “evil” zionists have moved on long ago and are trying to make TODAY and TOMMRROW a betetr day- free of any future catastrophe, chas veshomom…
Also funnier than Creedmoor.
Much of the anti-Semitism in the world comes from the way the medine acts. It can neither wage decisive war (when it did in 1948 and 1967 it was admired) nor make a lasting peace because you cannot make peace with Muslims. The medine continues to jeopardize the lives and well being of Jews within and outside its borders because by nature it cannot succeed. It is davar acher al gabei hamizbeach. When the medine forcibly vacated shuls in Gush Katif, there was anti Semitic violence in Kiev, at the hands of thugs who saw on TV that the medine, which they wrongly identify with Jews, is a weakling that can destroy its own places of kedusha and beat up its own teenage girls.
In fact there are no more tzioinim except a handful of “hilltop youth” and diehard RZ who are really strange, to be honest. There are post zionists who want to erase even the phony “Israeli” identity of the tzioinim in exchange for a vapid Obama style ideology based on go with the flow, lack of pride and fake love for everyone except those to the right of them who have real values.October 14, 2009 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #663627
A600KiloBear posted (after the usual antizionist screed):
“As for my information, I am an international entrepreneur and I wanted to establish just the type of program I mentioned in EY. Somehow, four times, my application for certain assistance offered to entrepreneurs planning to emigrate, was ignored or lost. That is the least of the first hand information I have about both what the medine (meaning the “branja”, leftists like Aharon Barak etc who really rule the country, not necessarily Bibi who at least says the right words) wants to do with charedim economically and the present manpower needs of the IDF.”
Ahh, now I understand. you ran afoul of Israeli bureaucracy, and decided that things were difficult for you because of your worldview. Well, welcome to the club. Of course, may of us to whom that has happened stick it our and eventually succeed. And if not, at least they do not hate the entire idea of the country.
“Stick to your science and your lab where perhaps you are doing some good . Your knowledge of history and the world outside your ivory tower is very lacking and your posts only show exactly what I am saying – that MO comes from a desire to partially assimilate and a lack of emunah.”
Although I do stick to my science, like many residents of this country I am actively involved in a great many social issues. (Including education, by the way. And, of course, IDF reserve service.) I also have access to a number of extensive University libraries (US, European and Israeli), of which I make free use. Your slandering of historians with whom you disagree (without showing where they are “biased”) while defending an embittered screenwriter does not exactly give you high recommendations as a student of history–quite the opposite.
As far as my “need to assimilate” and my emunah goes, I live here, not in the Ukraine–. What does that say? In addition, when I work in the US and Europe, I am openly identifiable as a Jew. I fail to understand how that is assimilation.
“But don’t worry, your children will be haredi, even if they are professionals. The arrows are pointing our way “
Will my children be Hareidim–even if they are professionals? I doubt it, but, again, I am not a Navi. I would hope, however, that for the Hareidi children–that they will be professionals –even if they are Hareidi.
Which way are the arrows pointing? I don’t know–stores that sell MP4s on the fringes of Meah Shearim are vandalized and their owners intimidated. Preventing the use of technology is getting more difficult. You can know if a neighbor has a television, and threaten or ostracize him, but media products are becoming more difficult to detect, and the modern world is creepoing, slowly but surely, into Meah Shearim and the center of Bnei Brak. Unless you plan on strip-searching the Yeshiva boys, better get used to the idea. Even worse for your situation-sending women to work and support the men means that they are exposed to the internet in their workplace. Who knows what ideas they will get into their heads? They may find that there is a big world out there–much larger than what they are allowed to participate in by their society. Perhaps they might decide they want a piece of the action?
In other words, if the Hareidim are so confident, why are they so afraid of a little technology? Other ideas, which might prove more attractive?October 14, 2009 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #663628
Yes, I alluded to the fact that the vaad rescued rabbonim and that this was ratzon Hashem so that seeds of Torah could be planted elsewhere and the community rebuilt. There were just not very many visas to anywhere out there and Torah priorities did indeed mean that Torah leaders needed to be saved first. This might not sit well with those who have American egalitarian sensibilities as opposed to Torah sensibilities, but that is just how it is. If the rabbonim had not been saved there would be no frum communities today anywhere and we all would have assimilated and intermarried ch”v.
However, most of those the zionists saved were just meant to be labor for the agrarian pipe dreams of the zionist elite and all of their efforts were directed at building their socialist utopia at the expense of saving Jews. They had far more resources and support than the Va’ad ever did and could have done a lot more. It is like comparing Hatzoloh to the EMS and asking why Hatzoloh does not answer every single call, Jewish and otherwise, that comes in via 911!
Em HaBanim Smeicha was a polemic written under fire and not meant to in any way promote the zionist state or zionist ideas regardless of its contents but rather to criticize not running away from the fire, as if there was anywhere to run. Apparently his son(s) managed to escape and there is a huge Chabad Teichtel family that is descended from him.
At one time, probably until he chose to retire, one of Rav Teichtel’s Lubavitcher sons was the prison chaplain at the infamous Shattah prison, home to the worst offenders in EY. He saw firsthand the products of the spiritual churban and just what the zionists did to Jews from places where Jewish violent crime was unheard of.
Jewish criminality in Morocco and Tunisia was something like 0.01% of the quite sizeable Jewish population. In EY a Moroccan Jew is called a marokai sakin, a Moroccan knife. As I once said to a group of Moroccan Jewish students, the only sharp knives Moroccan Jews ever used in Morocco were khalafim and milah knives.October 14, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #663629
“Yes, I alluded to the fact that the vaad rescued rabbonim and that this was ratzon Hashem so that seeds of Torah could be planted elsewhere and the community rebuilt. There were just not very many visas to anywhere out there and Torah priorities did indeed mean that Torah leaders needed to be saved first. “
Actually, R’ Elchanan Wasserman had access to visas not only for himself, but also his entire yeshivah. He chose to go back to Europe.
Many rebbes told people not to leave, and of course, they left when they had the chance.
And yet another of course, we can’t forget the Satmar Rebbe being rescued by a Zionist.
EDITEDOctober 14, 2009 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #663630
MW13, First, I am not claiming the modern world is better than the Chareidi world. In fact I said earlier that the modern have problems with improper entertainment. I would also add that the coed shita of some modern schools is problematic, (except where absolute necessity such as extreme financial or parental pressure in an out of town community, for example, does not leave the school with any other choice.)
The chareidi boys for the most part are often more serious and more dedicated to learning than boys in modern schools (big secret, I send my own kids to a chareidi school), but there are very good modern boys as well.
The problem is that no modern person will change his ways as long as the chareidim continue to denigrate the State of Israel and secular studies. The modern looks at them as hateful and primitive because of that and wants no part of that type of yiddishkeit.
Finally, if I saw a modern person in a McDonalds eating a cheeseburger I don’t take it as a reflection of his philosophy. It is simply a yetzer hara. He may feel bad about it, or maybe he lost his job and is angry at G-d, or whatever. It is a human failing. He probably knows it is wrong. However, when chareidim act obnoxious b’shita and trash Yerushalayim, as if they are obligated to do this and they are doing a great mitzva, I feel like throwing up. There is a big difference when you do something terrible and think you are a great tzaddik in the process, than when you know your yetzer hara is getting the better of you. A shita of acting obnoxious or talking obnoxious is totally intolerable and a complete chilul hashem. As I have mentioned before, there are many people in the world who believe that religion is the cause of all wars and violence since the beginning of history. In our daily actions, are we proving or disproving that thesis?October 14, 2009 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #663631
Again the straw man of the shababnikim. They represent no one and nothing. They are in de facto cherem in some cases and are not the mainstream.
Yes, you take advantage of everything the American taxpayer and donors built for you. Enjoy.
Just by living here I am bringing Yidden, including returnees from the EY morass, closer to Yiddishkeit. I can’t just daven and learn for myself here, I have to help others and teach even if it means I have to stay up until 1:00 AM to work because I spent 3 hrs in shul. I’m only wasting time with you and your fellow travelers over the past three days after I said I was cutting down because I caught cold and can’t go to shul where i would cough all over everyone – it is not as if I can hide in the corner and daven the way I could in EY and NY. Believe me, tomorrow I won’t be responding to your drivel.
For me EY is about 10 steps downward in ruchnius even if I could deal with the gashmius there and believe me I could if I wanted to – if you haven’t noticed there is a new charedi elite in EY that I could be part of tomorrow. But for what? Here, some lowlife gives me a Nazi salute, I walk right over to him and tell him that it better be the last time I see him within my dalet amos and before I even get near him he runs like a rabbit. In EY if I mistreat an Arab who wants to kill me, build a shul in the wrong place, or chop down an olive tree where terrorists hide, I get persecuted by the left and prosecuted by the state.October 14, 2009 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #663632
Kilobear and others, anybody who blames the Zionists for the holocaust needs to have his head examined. The primary motivation for Zionism was anti-semitism and pogroms which occurred throughout the ages wherever Jews lived. You need to study history 101. The biggest Navi of the last century and a half may have been Herzl himself who predicted severe problems if the Jews don’t get their own State of Refuge and stop being dependent on non-Jewish hosts everywhere for their livelihood and personal safety who on a whim will expel, kill or plunder the Jews at any time. The Zionists went and told Hitler who was a big Jew lover that why not go ahead and kill some Jews. Hitler responded, but they are my friends and I respect them. The Zionists then said, they are out to get you and they stabbed Germany in the back in WW1. Hitler said I don’t believe it. The Zionists then falsified some documents and brought proof that the Jews are the major cause of all problems in Germany and the world. Hitler then sighed and said, this is very hard for me, but if the Zionists tell me that I must kill Jews, I will see if I can possibly make a holocaust. I am a kind man, and I would never hurt anybody, especially handicapped children. After long consideration, Hitler said, maybe I will just advise them to leave Germany. The Zionists said, no, you must kill them. Hitler said, how many, 10, 20? The Zionists said, no, we are talking every last one. Millions of Jews must be killed. With a heavy heart and conscience, Hitler said I will look into this.
Seriously, this is the most idiotic accusation anybody could make up. I have discussed elsewhere on YW that the fact that the Zionists did not want to spend millions of dollars on dubious bribes that in all likelihood would only have bankrupted the Jews even more and then be used to buy more military equipment for the Nazis to kill even more Jews, was a totally reasonable decision. I pointed out that the Nazis lied about every possible thing. They lied about aktions saying they were roll calls, they lied about the gas chambers saying they were showers. You are now going to trust them with millions of dollars???
The Zionists may have correctly figured that bribes are a band-aid approach to anti-semitism. The root of the problem is to have our own government which will never again expel or kill Jews. Very reasonable to me.
EDITEDOctober 14, 2009 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #663633
Sorry again to offend your American Obamish sensibilities, but if one dies as a ben Torah one has a very high chelek in Olam HaBa. What is the value of being saved just to assimilate? Rav Elchanan Wasserman HYD and his yeshiva died al kiddush Hashem even if to you his judgment seemed clouded.
Yes I know who saved the Satmar Rov. I also know why he did so and it was of course yad Elokim but it was not because Kasztner wanted to save Reb Yoilish ZYA.October 14, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #663634
starwolf: can you quote anything relevant to back up your statements (books, articles, research papers)? Just spare us any more MO pride drivel.October 14, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #663635
In other words, if the Hareidim are so confident, why are they so afraid of a little
technology? Other ideas, which might prove more attractive?
Most haredim I know own computers and audio players, and watch kosher movies (I personally don’t because it is bitul zman). However I understand the reason – in EY everyone is Jewish, and yes, we need to be extra careful to keep away from tuma perpetrated by fellow Jews. Anywhere else, there are clear markers between goyim and their culture and ourselves and our Torah.
Still, the technology fearing extremists are not the mainstream. Some are descendants of the old Yishuv who are a minority, some are recent baalei tshuva who are rightfully but improperly compensating for their former lives, and the worst are plain and simple oisvorfen in the de facto service of the ShaBaK and police and led by shtinkers (moisrim, double agents) from the fringes of the community.October 14, 2009 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #663636
The root of the problem is to have our own government which will never again expel or kill Jews.
ROTFLLOLLOLOLOL! You mean like in Gush Katif? And when that was happening, anti-Semites from a hornet’s nest of a university in Kiev started up with local Jews, because they see Jews who to them are represented by the medine are weaklings who give in to violence by kicking our own people out of our own homes!
Wow! Who needs Creedmoor when we have such krumkeit!October 14, 2009 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #663637
Kilobear, you know Gush Katif was not done for the sadistic purpose of torturing Jews. It was done because Sharon thought the pressure both from within and without was too great to withstand. From within, that many Israelis said how can we have 30,000 soldiers at risk protecting 8,000 settlers. From without, because international pressure even from the USA was getting too hard. Sharon may have felt if I give this up, then they will see how much I have done and we can hold on to the West Bank and Yerushalyim.
Recall that Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai saw that the pressure of the Romans was too great and he gave up YERUSHALYIM! He only asked for Yavneh vchachameha, a hatzala purta, knowing if he asked for more he would get nothing. Was he a bad man, too? You see we are in golus still. If you have questions, ask the RBSH, not Sharon, a mere mortal.
And here you are again with that famous self-contradiction: Zionism is no good because it is not Zionistic enough. The anti-zionists wanted to forego the entire state. You are upset now because we only have 95%?
Finally, if you wanted to keep Gaza, why not work on befriending and being mekarev the secular, and telling them that the RBSH will protect us, even despite the pressure, ki yachol nuchal lah. Had the Chareidim been giving 75 years of friendship and chizuk instead of 75 years of criticism and enmity, maybe the secular would have had bitachon in that crucial time, and maybe they would have no longer been secular in the first place.October 15, 2009 4:05 am at 4:05 am #663638
A600KiloBear takes examples like people rideing on shabbat as a failure of Religious Zionism and the philosophy of Rav Kook. He takes racists attitudes toward Moroccan Jews (which have largely faded over the years–these days, only the Ashkenazi Hareidi community gets upset if one of their daughters marries a Sephardic Jew–it happens all the time in the other sectors of society) and condemns all of the State becauses of them. However, when one brings up Hareidi excesses (such as stone-throwing, he says that they are not representative of the ills of Hareidi society–they are firnge elements.
Well, you can’t have it both ways. Either the fringe elements are representative of the larger society, or they are not.October 15, 2009 4:22 am at 4:22 am #663639
“Harav HaGoan” posted: “starwolf: can you quote anything relevant to back up your statements (books, articles, research papers)? Just spare us any more MO pride drivel. “
Sure, just as soon as you post a few references for your point of view–sparing us any sinat chinam drivel. But if you are referring to the Shoah, the list of Yad Vashem publications is a good place to start.
You don’t like the fact that I am proud of the accomplishments of the Statre of Israel and the Modern Orthodox? Too bad. We have accomplished so much. What makes the Modern Orthodox unique is that we know that it is not only Am Yisrael who have accomplished so much–only with the help of Avinu Shebashamayim have we done this.
I do understand why “MO pride” bothers you. What exactly has the Hareidi sector accomplished in the same amount of time? Yes, there are a great many Torah institutions around, also built with the help of Avinu Shebashamayim–and what percentage of them have been built without the help of the Modern Orthodox?
If you live in the US, not a wek goes by without receiving solicitations from Yeshivot, kollelim, and various other Hareidi enterprises–the volume can be staggering. And clearly, the MO give–otherwise it would hardly be worthwhile for these mass-mailings to be sent to the membership lists of MO Shuls. No problem there–happy to help. It is a different story, however, when people from that same stream of society spew sinah and contemptfor our way of life. And the sinah and contempt are NOT mutual; otherwise we would keep our hard-earned money for those institutions following our own derech.October 15, 2009 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #663640
starwolf: are you living in a vacuum? if you’ll reread my previous posts you’ll see that i already listed several books. you ask what the chareidi world has accomplished? nothing much, aside from rebuilding Torah from the ashes (despite the hindrances of your ilk). i know that thats probably meaningless to you, but its only fair to judge a society by their own ideals.October 15, 2009 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #663641squeakParticipant
Harav HaGROAN strikes again.October 15, 2009 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #663642Feif UnParticipant
Harav HaShotah: The only way the chareidim rebuilt Torah from the ashes was with the help of the Modern Orthodox. Who funded (and still continues to fund) their yeshivos? Who do they turn to when out fund-raising?
I recently heard from someone that someone running a gemach in Passaic was opposed to someone opening a gemach in Teaneck. What was the reason? The person said, “In Teaneck, the community is rich Modern Orthodox people. It’s their job to support the yeshivish people in Passaic.”October 15, 2009 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #663643
“Harav Hagoan” posted: “starwolf: are you living in a vacuum? if you’ll reread my previous posts you’ll see that i already listed several books. you ask what the chareidi world has accomplished? nothing much, aside from rebuilding Torah from the ashes (despite the hindrances of your ilk). i know that thats probably meaningless to you, but its only fair to judge a society by their own ideals. “
Do you refer to your citation “Another great book that might remove some of your ignorance is “The Holocaust In History” by Prof. Michael R. Mauruss. “
First of all, when citing, learn to spell the name of the author. Second of all, where does Dr. Marrus accuse Zionists of complicity in the Shoah–which is the argument that you brought?
The Hareidim rebuilt Torah from the ashes? Once again, you neglect to bother to thank those that helped establish the Hareidi centers of learning–i.e. the Modern Orthodox. How did “my ilk” hinder the building of these institutions? Do you feel that we do not give you enough support?
I could also make the point that had those Torah community leaders in Europe listened to the Zionists and others who urged them to emigrate while there was time–the ashes of Europe would have contained fewer flowers of Torah than they did. Would you care to blame the Zionists and Modern Orthodox for that as well?October 15, 2009 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #663644JosephParticipant
starwolf – There was nowhere for the European masses to go. The doors were closed, except for the very select few.October 15, 2009 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #663645
Joseph, R’ Elchonon Wasserman had visas available for him and his entire yeshiva, he turned it down.
Furthermore having no where to go is not the same as telling your people “Don’t Leave Europe.”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.