Modern Orthodox people (and sometimes Popa) are stupid

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  • #600479
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Made you look, made you look!

    Ok, so I’m standing and listending to haftara today, and it is about when elisha the navi revived the boy from the dead.

    And I’m thinking: Back then, they couldn’t tell if somoene was dead or in a coma. So probably he was just in a coma.

    Then, I realized I was being stupid. It isn’t any harder for G-d to revive someone from the dead than from a coma. So today, we can tell the difference, and maybe G-d would want to do a lesser miracle. But, (even according to my idea that) they couldn’t tell the difference, there would be no reason for G-d to make it a coma over dead!

    It is the same thing for G-d.

    See, these people run around trying to make scientific sense out of miracles. Oooh, we’ll figure out how kriyas yam suf could have happened- who cares? Do you think it is harder for G-d to split yam suf in one way than in another?

    On this topic, I wonder the following: Today, we know that things are made out of atoms, because we can see them or detect them. But, 200 years ago they didn’t know, because they couldn’t see or detect them. So I wonder; was stuff really made out of atoms 200 years ago?

    I have no reason to think that there were atoms 200 years ago any more than to think there weren’t. G-d might have wanted to have atoms, but I don’t see any reason why or why not.

    #1041159
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Popa, you are cut from a different cloth. Perhaps the cloth you are cut from didn’t exist 200 years ago and now it does so Hashem made the CR to accommodate it.

    #1041160
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    If a tree falls in the woods, and there’s no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

    #1041161
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If a tree falls in the woods, and there’s no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

    Ah, thank you. I was going to include that, but I forgot to.

    Yes, if a tree falls in a forest, and nobody is around to hear it, I have absolutely no reason to think that it makes a sound.

    #1041162
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Well, from a purely scientific point of view, you could argue that one either way. 🙂

    #1041163
    nitpicker
    Participant

    If a man says something in a forest and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

    (not original but a favorite)

    #1041165
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Of course the tree makes a sound. Sound is just the vibration caused by the fall whether there is an ear to hear it or not it is there. And Hashem is everywhere and He will hear it so thr question is irrelevant.

    Nitpicker, of course he is still wrong, “oaf hashamayim yoleich es hakol”. A women will hear it eventually.

    #1041166
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Mod-42: It actually depends on how exactly you define “sound.” And possibly, “metaphysics.”

    popa: I’m confused. Your OP seems to be arguing in two different directions. Elucidate?

    #1041167
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa: I’m confused. Your OP seems to be arguing in two different directions. Elucidate?

    I don’t know what you mean by that.

    I am making one point: It is not harder for G-d to do things one way than another, and therefore, everything we see as nature may be irrelevant in G-d’s view.

    What two directions do you see?

    #1041168
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    You start off saying that it’s all the same, even if our perception is altered. By that line of reasoning, yes, matter WAS always composed of atoms, whether we realized it or not. Yes, to God it doesn’t matter, but as previously asserted, OUR perception doesn’t get to define that.

    Anyway, the argument is recursive. God constructed the mainframe of “nature,” so however He alters it must also define it. How we see it IS really irrelevant. We don’t really have any say in the matter.

    #1041169
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m not smart enough to understand what you just said, but it sounds to me like we agree.

    How we perceive it irrelevant. And how it really is is also irrelevant.

    #1041170
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Popa, you are being Mechalel Shabbos with that theory!

    #1041171
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Yup, that’s the bottom line. 🙂

    Something that gave me an interesting paradigm shift (paraphrased):

    If God’s knowledge (for lack of a better term) is infinite, then we know really doesn’t matter – infinity divided by any number, however big, yields such as to make all equal in comparison.

    #1041172
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The tree falling in the forest isn’t a scientific question, but a philosophical one. Is there such thing as the world as it is or are there just our perceptions of it?

    If indeed it is just as big of a miracle to bring someone from a coma back to life, as it is from death back to life, it is because in essence there is no coma, there is no death, and there is no life. There is only our perception of it. For that matter, there is only my perception of it. Whatever “I” am.

    But I generally do not live with this assumption, and therefore I assume there is a “you,” and I assume you don’t either live with this assumption. Which means that I live assuming – at least on some level – that things are real. Ultimately this means that healing someone from a coma is less of a miracle than bringing him back to life.

    #1041173
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    yitayningwut: True, but it IS also an amusing conundrum from a scientific point of view – and since the OP seems to be chiefly focused on that concern, it makes sense to take it as such.

    And again, the premise of OP IS valid – ultimately, our perception really ISN’T all that significant. In a very theoretical way, but still.

    #1041174
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    OneOfMany –

    #1041175
    Yatzmich
    Member

    If nobody is looking at a mirror, is it reflecting anything? Or is it blank until someone looks at it?

    #1041176
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    yitayningwut: Only if they are so simultaneously. That is very important.

    #1041177
    oomis
    Participant

    Hashem can do anything. That is a given. In the case of Elisha Hanavi, EVEN if the boy was in a coma and not really dead, or if Elisha actually did CPR for him and breathed life back into him, the fact that this actually works to bring someone back to life who has stopped breathing,IS A MIRACLE. We take this miracle for granted because doctors do it routinely nowadays. But in Elisha’s day, it was not commonplace, and he did not have any fancy resuscitating equipment, only himself and Siyata D’Shmaya,

    #1041178
    old man
    Participant

    “If nobody is looking at a mirror, is it reflecting anything? Or is it blank until someone looks at it? “

    It is never blank. It always reflects what is in front of it. Whether a human sees the image or not is irrelevant.

    This is a scientific fact and does not relate at all to the (pseudo)philosophical discussion above.

    I have often tried to determine what exactly happened to the child in this haftarah. I have not been successful.

    #1041179
    sem graduate
    Member

    if you read the language in the haftora – it says – vihinei hanaar meis…. generally speaking meis means dead… you can always argue how do you know the navi wrote with nevuah, but if you believe that the navi was written binevuah, you also believe the naar was dead… hashem did not perform this miracle for the sake of proving that he exists or his strength – he did it for the sake of elisha….

    why go back 200 years ago and question the existence of atoms – what makes you think that when i see blue and when you see blue we’re seeing the same color? anything can be questioned but in your case the question defies cold logic…

    #1041180
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, why do you stand for the Haftarah?

    #1041181
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t usually sit down for davening at all. Or use a siddur.

    I basically use a siddur only for:

    A. long tachanun.

    B. rosh hashana mussaf

    C. Yom kippur

    D. yontiff mussaf (the korbanos)

    E. borchi nafshi

    F. rosh chodesh mussaf (what, I don’t know it.)

    #1041182
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Actually the premise is wrong. Being in a coma would mean unresponsive, but breathing, warm and with a pulse.

    #1041183
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    Good job, HaLeivi.

    Was wondering when someone was going to get around to this.

    But after all, it was Popa’s motzei Shabbos shtick…

    #1041184
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    It calls the Shunamis an “isha gedola”. How big was she? And why does the Navi need to describe how big she is? In those days being fat was a virtue.

    #1041185
    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    An adam gadol is virtuous but not an isha gedola?

    How do you define “nes gadol hayah poh/sham”?

    Or Maor hagadol?

    #1041186
    twisted
    Participant

    Meforshim note that the ben Hatzofis who was revived from dead by Eliahu became the Novi Yonah. What became of the ben Hashunamis?

    If you are dead and a novi brings you back, do you bench gomel, mechaye hameisim, or other bracaha?

    42: big as influential, a macherteh that would not shy away from the mitzva, or perhaps learned. We learn from her the principle of visiting ones rebbe, (or maharat?) on rosh chodesh and Shabbos. From rosh chodesh, the halacha was extended to regel.

    #1041187
    apushatayid
    Participant

    She may have been 7’4 and quite pettite. Gedolah would still describe her.

    #1041188
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Luckily we have Rashi to tell us what Gedola refers to.

    #1041191
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Do I get an aveira every time I read the slanderous heading?

    #1041192

    I don’t usually sit down for davening at all. Or use a siddur.

    I basically use a siddur only for:

    A. long tachanun.

    B. rosh hashana mussaf

    C. Yom kippur

    D. yontiff mussaf (the korbanos)

    E. borchi nafshi

    F. rosh chodesh mussaf (what, I don’t know it.)

    you have to daven mussaf even if you bring a korban mussaf? I thought it was a replacement for the korban!

    #1041193

    Do I get an aveira every time I read the slanderous heading?

    if you realize that almost nothing that Popa posts is meant seriously then the answer would be no. Click his CN next to his post above and you’ll see what I mean.

    As far as I know, he has only posted 2 serious posts so far since joining the CR and he’s done teshuva for one of them.

    #1041194
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    And that is my question for you Rabbis out there. Is one allowed to look at a disparaging remark made in jest. (who’s subtitle is ‘tell it to me…’?)

    #1041195
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    apushatayid:

    She may have been 7’4 and quite pettite.

    In reference to a women’s size, petite generally means short, (regardless of weight). This term is rather imprecise. Just had to put that put there.

    #1041196
    gefen
    Participant

    Don’t like the title. If an MO looks at the cr and sees that, he would be turned off totally. Please change the title. It’s a chilul Hashem!

    #1041197
    Toi
    Participant

    Popa- your assumption is pretty thick. nevua was written al pi Hashe and it says dead. so pashtus he was dead. otherwise your disagreeing with Hashem. dumb dumb.

    #1041198
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    gefen, I also don’t like it. I tried last night to get then to change it (deleted), I threaded a new thread to that effect (ignored), tried again here (misunderstood).

    Now it’s your turn.

    #1041199
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Old Man, don’t you think it was an aneurysm? That’s what it sounds like to me — sudden headache and sudden death.

    #1041200
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Sunstroke

    #1041201
    gefen
    Participant

    Zeeskite, if they don’t change it for you, they’re certainly not going to change it for me. In fact just today they deleted one of my threads. It was up for about an hour and it was not even controvertial. Oh well.

    Maybe get your mommy to yell at them. 😉

    #1041202
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thanks for bumping!

    #1041203
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Yoish, popa…

    #1041204
    BTGuy
    Participant

    literally…lol Very funny PBA!!

    Ok…Many times there can also be a scientific explanation. Even if there is, how should we think those gears were set in motion for the ball to roll that way? Of course, Hashem manipluates the world of creation to do His bidding. Scientific explanations dont, by definition, negate the hand of Hashem, even if some people wish to see it that way, c”vs.

    #1041205
    bezalel
    Participant

    you have to daven mussaf even if you bring a korban mussaf? I thought it was a replacement for the korban!

    Once one of my teachers asked everyone in the class to say what acpect of the times of Moshiach was their favorite, he didn’t appreciate my responce.

    #1041206
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Once one of my teachers asked everyone in the class to say what acpect of the times of Moshiach was their favorite, he didn’t appreciate my responce.

    You said that we won’t have to daven, I’m guessing?

    #1041207
    bezalel
    Participant

    You said that we won’t have to daven, I’m guessing?

    No, I said that davening would be shorter.

    #1041209
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    I never opened this thread before because(sigh,as usual) I didn’t like your title, popa. I opened it now only by mistake, and started reading your post. Anyways, you made me look, so here’s the stupid pennybook u made me buy!

    p.s. BTW when no one’s around, trees don’t even fall in forests. They are transported from a vertical position to horizontal by Hashem, in a millisecond the next time someone passes that spot 🙂

    oh, also, atoms were always around; ein davar chodosh tachas hashmesh. Now, about that negative, despicable title….

    #1041210

    BaalHabboze,

    that negative despicable title wasn’t there until a millisecond before you saw it and it disappeared a millisecond after it went off your screen. 🙂

    #1041211
    squeak
    Participant

    Who said atoms were always round? I think it is mathematically impossible to make certain shapes, like squares, out of round pieces. I’m not aware of any natural squares in nature, so we can’t prove that atoms were round before say, the pyramids.

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