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mw13: Be fair. Smichah does not equal Dayanus.
No, but smichah by definition is an authorization to become a dayan. Look into it, Sam, I’m not making this up.
Sam2 -“Smichah does not equal Dayanus.”
Ok. Are they gonna preside like a Rabbi? They could become the Rabbi of these all women Shuls, like they have in the West Side of NY, NY!
DY: That is Rabbi Yonah Reiss’ argument against women’s Smichah. Rabbi Reiss is a Gaon and it’s an interesting opinion, but most don’t agree with him (they think it’s Assur for other reasons, obviously) and it’s easy to get around. “Heter Hora’ah” does not have to include Reshus to become a Dayan. In most places Yadin Yadin is something entirely separate.
It was Saul Lieberman’s opinion first, and I think he addresses your point.
I think the reason that’s the first teshuvah on it is because it was only an issue with conservative.
Sam2, what about the Rambam?
Sam2 – “Are they gonna preside like a Rabbi? They could become the Rabbi of these all women Shuls, like they have in the West Side of NY, NY!”
Or are they gonna sit next to the Rabbi in these so-called Orthodox Shuls? You can’t say this is Conservative, because they still have a Mechezah, but only the Rabbinit is exempt!
I just read the hamodia’s article on open orthodoxy today, it’s sickening where their shittos can lead to.
They could drive on shabbos without batting an eyelash and still call themselves orthodox, at least reform an conservative changed their name
ca: No one OO has allowed driving on Shabbos. They’ve done plenty wrong to call them out on. There is no need to make up more.
I know that sam2,
It’s possible that this could be forth coming in the future, anything that they could rationalize as outdated is fair game for them
In any debate , the real deabte is for the hearts and minds of people on the fence. That is one of the main reasons I am against the harsh rebuke. People on the outside see the harsh words and begin to sympathize with the other side as being the victim (I am seeing this already)
By making statements that arent true, and when people investigate and find out it isnt true, its not helping your cause
ca: Nah. They’ve been more “halachic” than that so far. I don’t see that coming.
Sam2,
From what I understand they say the Torah and Halacha change with the times
Is that wrong?
Ca: of course it is. We say ani Mamin shezos Hatorah lo sehei mochlefes…
Now did our Rabbis allow certain things under duress, (example kitniyos during famine–which is not min Hatorah but was enforced by Ashkenazim) yes. But these guys are coming from a non Jewish standpoint, trying to change the Torah to suit their liberal values. And not because there’s this pressing need, just change for the sake of becoming like the secular liberals, and perhaps satisfy a few hard core feminists.
Most frum women are understanding and happy with their roles in Yiddishkeit, and of those that aren’t it’s mostly because they’ve been exposed to non-Jewish influences. That’s not shas hadchak. Shabbos for example may be harder to keep than women not being Rabbis, but we preserve it.
Mammale,
My question “is that wrong” was going on what I was understanding not on their hashkafah
Sorry I misunderood you
From Arutz Sheva:
European Rabbis declare Open Orthodoxy ‘outside the fold’
Conference of European Rabbis issues strong statement against liberal Orthodox group, says its rabbis ‘will not be recognized’ in Europe.
The Conference of European Rabbis (CER) issued an unusually harsh statement this week condemning the United States-based liberal Open Orthodoxy movement, and warning that Orthodox communities in Europe would not employ rabbis ordained by the group until it returned to normative Orthodox practices.
In the declaration, the CER – which represents some 700 European Orthodox rabbis – emphasized that it embraces only those rabbis who “were ordained in accordance with halakhah (Jewish law – ed.), and who lead their communities according to the generational traditions as handed over at Mount Sinai, and passed on by the poskei hador (major halakhic authorities – ed.),” and who hold fast to fundamental, traditional Jewish values.
CER would not accept “any initiative that is not in the spirit of the halakhah” or ancient Jewish tradition, it added – referring to the Open Orthodoxy movement.
“The Conference views with great pain the deviations from religious foundations emanating from the movement called ‘Open Orthodoxy’, and warns that those who act in this spirit, alumni of the aforementioned movement… will not be recognized by us as rabbis, with all that entails.”
Rabbi Jonathan Guttentag of Manchester, UK, explained that by systematically testing the boundaries of normative Jewish practice, Open Orthodoxy “has pushed the envelope that bit far, and… led to positions which take its proponents outside the Orthodox umbrella.”
While acknowledging that the group did tend to keep just within the confines of Jewish law, he and other rabbis emphasized that for Orthodox Jews the “spirit of the law” was almost as important.
“At the end of the day, Orthodox life… is dependent on certain parameters, and crossing over the line of those parameters puts its adherents and proponents outside the frame of Orthodoxy.
Ukrainian Rabbi Refael Kruskal said the strong message was intended not to alienate Open Orthodoxy, but rather to encourage its leaders “back into the fold,” while protecting the traditions of religious Jews in Europe.
“The CER realizes that there are people in Europe from these organizations (who) are applying for rabbinical positions… and they’re worried about the consequences,” he said.
“We hope that Open Orthodoxy will… come back within the fold, that they’ll understand that they’ve gone too far, they’ve crossed the lines. and if they don’t then the drastic steps we spoke about will be taken.”
ca: Sort of. But it’s always couched in Halachic terms. So if there is Mamash no Halachic basis for it, they won’t do it (yet). If they can find a rejected Shittah in the Rishonim, they haven’t been too hesitant to rely on it. I don’t think they’ve yet started relying on Shittos that are actually Yechidim, but we’ll see how long it takes for them to get there. They’re not Conservative yet. I hope that they never make it there, but it is looking more and more unlikely that they stay something that can pass itself off as “Orthodox”. Mark my words, within 5 years your average OO congregation will be wholly accepting of homosexuality, and that will be the end of that. Women Rabbis we could probably find a way to make our peace with (while strongly holding that we disagree with it) if they were 100% Halachah-observant. Yehi Ratzon that they will be. But practically, the chances of that happening are close to zero.
Sam2 and coffee addict,
They could drive on shabbos without batting an eyelash and still call themselves orthodox, at least reform an conservative changed their name
ca: Nah. They’ve been more “halachic” than that so far. I don’t see that coming.
Driving on Shabbos was a big issue for the conservative movement, because the vast majority of its adherents were suburbanites who did not cluster around synagogues. Note that the ruling permitting driving on Shabbos came in the 1950s, but counting women as part of a minyan did not start until the 1970s, and the first conservative female rabbi was ordained in the mid 1980s.
Open Orthodoxy at this point seems most active in more urban areas, where walking to synagogue is more feasible (and as an aside, in line with environmental activism), so that is not where the pressure to change is coming from. So I agree with Sam2 that we are not likely to see a blanket permission to drive on Shabbos ruling from the Open Orthodox movement in the near future.
Avram,
I see my point isn’t clear
Let’s say open orthodoxy eventually had its congregants move to auburban areas then what would happen?
Rav Aharon Feldman spoke to Cross Currents and the interview is on their site today. Rav Aharon said the RCA’s statement “is totally missing the point. The problem of Open Orthodoxy does not come down to whether women should or should not be Rabbanim; it is the fact that they deny the most basic fundamentals of belief in Torah.” And that the RCA should make stronger statements than they have until now.
Mishpacha Magazine interviewed Rabbis Avraham Gordimer, Steven Pruzansky, and Yoel Schonfeld. It sounded like they felt that essentially, they too were writing off OO as not Orthodox, but the RCA felt that strategically, they were better off attacking specific practices, and they started with the most public and obvious one.
Read Cross Currents interview with Rabbi Aharon Feldman.
Do you think giving a woman wearing a short sleeve shirt and short skirt the sefer Torah to walk around with in the Ezras Nashim is traditional Judaism? I heard of one such shul where a woman read Shir Hashirim on Pesach.
The main problem with that chevra – their entire Judaism is focused on going to shul on Shabbos, there is no question that women in shul are second class. However we believe that there is much more to Judaism than going to shul on Shabbos. Let the women try working together on spiritual growth, being more medakdek in mitzvos, trying to do the ratzon Hashem. This walking around with the sefer Torah is just feminism and has no place in Judaism just like I, a Yisroel, have no right to ask for the first aliyah in shul.
rwndk1: i know many women who read Shir hashirim on Pesach as well as Friday night. What does That have to do with tznius or feminism?
There were a few ?????? though it does not say they got Aliyos, Hagbe or any of that.
555 – i was assuming he meant for the tzibbur
coffee addict,
Let’s say open orthodoxy eventually had its congregants move to auburban areas then what would happen?
I don’t know.
I don’t know.
now you see how it’s possible for them to matir driving on shabbos?
ca: I still don’t see it coming.
Sam: maybe you’re shortsighted. Generally speaking once one “slips” off the derech, it’s a slippery slope and hard to control the fall. If you actually believe their mehalech is wrong then without siata dishmaye it’s impossible to maintain the basic tenets of Yiddishkeit. But I’d venture a guess that Taharos Hamishpocha –because of their emphasis on feminism — will go first, and it will definitely take years.
coffee addict,
now you see how it’s possible for them to matir driving on shabbos?
The more I think about it, the more I think it is less likely that the Open Orthodox would pick driving on Shabbos as a battleground. Driving on Shabbos outside of a life threatening medical or dangerous situation has been more or less a universally accepted dividing line between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Judaism for decades. Non-Orthodox Jews are not offended by the restriction or that definition of Orthodoxy.
So I think it is more likely that Open Orthodox leaders would keep these type of restrictions (driving on Shabbos, some level of kashrus), using them as a pretense for Orthodoxy, while grinding down or pushing past other dividing lines such as mechitza, taharas hamishpacha, and marriage issues.
Generally speaking once one “slips” off the derech, it’s a slippery slope and hard to control the fall
Where do you have proof that once someone slips and does ONE Averiah, that they will do the other 612 Averirahs.
That’s not what I said. We all make mistakes. The difference is that hopefully we try to get back on track.
I said once one slips OFF THE DERECH. By that I mean if one INTENTIONALLY STOPS KEEPING MITZVOS or in this case misreads the Torah so aveiros are seen as Mitzvos (or at best “neutral”). Since they don’t think their mehalech is wrong there’s nothing stopping them from applying it to more areas of the Torah hence the slippery slope, and they will bederech hateva never try to get back on track.
Of course there are always exceptions that can trigger Teshuva but this is my take on it.
Most people who are OTD are otherwise decent human beings. Not keeping Shabbos is not an indicator that one would be a murderer, Thief etc
ZD: you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. So yes, I’m talking mainly between man & Hashem because they dropped the Torah and not necessarily secular laws.
“someone slips and does ONE Averiah, that they will do the other 612 Averirahs.”
I don’t see where the poster said that they will be ???? on every other ????. However if they are spouting apikorsus, it’s not a big slip to ignoring ???, ????? and ????? ??????. The last one is questionable how much they observe. Onside ring a large part of their belief is feminism and based on their own pod casts.
Either way it does say in ???? ????, and I’m paraphrasing, ???? ????? ????.
Most people who are OTD are otherwise decent human beings.
Most people who are financial embezzlers are otherwise decent human beings.
Not keeping Shabbos is not an indicator that one would be a murderer, Thief etc
Not keeping Lo Signov is not an indicator that one would be a murderer, violent, etc.
“Most people who are OTD are otherwise decent human beings. “
This is very debatable. There are many who go OTD that are very far from decent human beings. And there are many of the YCT persuasion that are evil nasty people who specifically seek to harm frum people.
“Not keeping Shabbos is not an indicator that one would be a murderer, Thief etc”
If your only definition of murder is stabbing someone in an alley or shooting someone with a gun perhaps not. But what about ????? as defined in ???? which would include pulling the plug on an ill patient who is still alive according to ???? or withholding nutrition from a patient on machines. That is ?????. And it an absolute surety that someone who does not keep Shabbos is very likely to be involved in ?????. And they are more likely to condone abortion as a choice and they are likely to ignore halachik definitions of ownership and be involved in ????? ?????. For instance if they gamble amongst each other in cases where you would not say there is an ??????.
Your supposition is utterly wrong.
The reason we do not wear Tfilling all day is because one Friday a man was travelling and shabbos was coming and he saw a man wearing Teffillin and figured he was an honest jew and gave him his money
After Shabbos the man went back to the Tefillin man asking for his money , The Teffillin man denied ever getting the money and the original man went to the Rav telling him what happend (Sorry I forgot which rov this was) and the Rav figured out the man who was wearing teffillin was a theif and did have the money
they then ruled that people should not wear Teffillin all day
And some people who are ‘Frum” lack middos NISCHTKeferlach
Nisht, while many YCT people might be wrong, I would not say that any of them are “evil nasty people”. That’s a pretty terrible thing to say.
And by your indication, most of people alive today are murderers.
Matan,
There is a group of star graduates of YCT who are touted as important OO rabbits who go out of their way to harm and defame frum people in the MSM, and by lodging made up complaints with government agencies specifically against frum organizations and frum owned business. Causing them tremendous harm.
I would call that evil and nasty. Probably they fall under the category of “mosrim”.
Who?
“And by your indication, most of people alive today are murderers. “
Those are not my definitions. Those fall under the definition of retzicha.
The premise of the poster was that just because someone doesn’t keep Shabbos does not mean they will be a murderer, that the person will not be over other aveiros. I just pointed out the fallacy of that statement because they would very likely be over on halachic retzicha. Precisely because those who do not keep halacha do not consider it murder, while the source of all that is true and factual, the Torah, does consider it murder.
ZD: if you think people who are not Frum overall have better midos than those that are I don’t know what to say… Vahavtu l’reichu kumocho does not pertain just to the irreligious… I think you are looking at frum Jews with a “krum” eye and should examine why this is so.
I think we are confusing two things, the definition of ????? and being a decent human being. I don’t see the two as being mutually exclusive. For instance, If someone removes a feeding tube because they think they are alleviating the suffering of a patent, they might have committed ?????, but they still might be a fine person.
So I do think that most people who are OTD are otherwise decent human beings.
MSM = Methylsulfonylmethane?
“So I do think that most people who are OTD are otherwise decent human beings. “
I never said all were not, however I do think many who do go off, certainly the ones who are vocal about have long been proven to be other than fine individuals. Often times their behavior is related to metal illness, but that does not make them fine decent people.
Then I specifically pointed out members of the OO persuasion, who are most definitely not fine people.
And killing someone out of mercy, does not make someone a decent fine person.
By definition, a rotzeach is not a fine individual, on him it says that muttar lehatzilo benafsho.
Mammele: No, because they do have a set of beliefs. So they’ll stay within that. It might not be Frumkeit, but it will end up having limits. I see homosexuality falling before Taharas Mishpacha, but I hear your claim.
nisht: We’ve had this debate before. Either way, not knowing all of the intricate details of Hilchos Retzichah does not make one evil. (Oh, and removing a feeding tube is probably not Retzichah according to anyone. It is at absolute worst a Gram Retzichah and probably just an Issur of Lo Sa’amod Al Dam Rei’echa. Turning off a ventilator might be different and interesting, but I don’t want to have that debate now.)
“nisht: We’ve had this debate before. Either way, not knowing all of the intricate details of Hilchos Retzichah does not make one evil.”
However, some who is OTD, or someone who belives that their feelings drive halacha would be likely to commit retzicha in the aforementioned manners. (Think about taking the heart out of someone before he is halachically dead to transplant into someone else).
Most poskim hold that removing a feeding tube is more than just gram retzicha (if there is even such a concept) it is retzicha biyadayim.
So it is not hard to see how someone who goes off the derech can be oiver on retzicha. Giluy arayos and avidah zara is upgeredt.
I is actually hard to understand why there is a poster who thinks that going off the derech is not a slippery slope to being oiver even the most serious aveiros.
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