Did Mordechai make a Chillul Hashem by breaking the law?

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  • #615095

    Joseph
    Participant

    Dina D’Malchusa Dina. Mordechai made a tremendous Chillul Hashem by refusing to bow to Haman in accordance with the law. He caused massive anti-semitism by enraging the premier and causing the King to denounce all the Jews. We must condemn Mordechai for making Jews look bad.

    And then when our King in his great benevolence invited us to his State party, Mordechai the Chareidi went against kovod malchus by telling Jews to boycott the King and caused more anti-semitism. The rabbis should have condemned Mordechai for stopping Jews from being full members of modern society.

    Mordechai needs to be prosecuted and anyone opposing it is an enabler of his abuse.

    #1063422

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    i completely oppose what you say

    Mordechai stood up for Hashem & had absolutely NO FEAR of Haman/avoda zara & was not afraid to speak up in the name of Hashem (as I speak up now)

    today we are still holding in the story of purim but we are not holding yet by the time of being redeemed

    perhaps you can assist me with an honest answer

    2)we are still in the midst of Avoda zara R”L For the past thousands of years there was always Avoda zara in the world-from the molech to the baal to the asheira tree etc…-todays avoda zara is MONEY, we are a servant to money, we serve money, we bow down to money, we let money talk & rule us. Thus we leave Hashem no choice but to take it away from us Rachmana L’tzlan. But you can still save yourself from going down. if a person can use his money the right way & remember that it all comes from Hashem & it was just loaned to him (even though he worked for it), then he is the perfect person to continue holding Hashem’s money.

    SHAME on everyone for being afraid to speak up & stand up for Hashem & be mikadeish Hashem. Everyone bowed down to Haman cause they feared death & feared Haman BUT they didn’t fear Hashem R”L

    are YOU allowed to bow down to avoda zara if your life is at stake? no not for the 3 main sins which you even need to die for & this is one of them.

    What can you reply back to Hashem by replying back to this message. I’m not afraid to stand up for Hashem & not bow down to money or haman etc…

    May we all do teshuva ASAP before things get worse in klal yisroel C”V

    #1063423

    Sam2
    Participant

    Isn’t this Pshat in the Gemara why he was only Ratzui L’rov Echav and not Kol Echav? Because the whole story only happened because he started up with Haman?

    #1063424

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lol, Sam.

    Actually, the gemara (Megilla, give or take one or two mesechtas 😉 ) says it’s because he was learning less and got involved in politics (s’rara-Rashi).

    What Joseph is saying is pretty much straight from Rav Dessler.

    #1063425

    oomis
    Participant

    DDD, cannot take precedence over avoda Zara. Mordechai of course was right.

    #1063426

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m sue it wasn’t actual Az. He could of found a heter.

    #1063427

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    seforim say haman had a avoda zara in his clothing. but even if he didn’t haman considered himself a avoda zara to be served & bowed down to….

    we shouldn’t be bowing down to money & serving it like a god or bowing down to the obamanation or any other avoda zara

    #1063428

    Josh31
    Participant

    Mordechai was a Religious Zionist.

    He opposed the party because Achasveirosh was celebrating that the Beit Hamikdosh was not rebuilt after 70 years per his calculation. Achashveirosh was not celebrating a conquest or his birthday, but what he thought was the end of Zionism.

    After nearly 70 years of exile, the Jews war making skills had probably fallen into disuse. Under Mordechai’s leadership they had nearly one year to train for battle, and were successful in the battle of 13 Adar.

    #1063429

    oomis
    Participant

    Meforshim say Haman was wearing a pendant with an idol on it. By Mordechai bowing for Harman ostensibly, he would have actually bowed before az. Remember the youngest son of Chana who would not pick up Antiochus’ coin, because it would mean bowing before the idol, though not on purpose.

    #1063430

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As I recall, meforshim also say it wasn’t actual A”Z. I will try bl”n to look it up.

    #1063431

    charliehall
    Participant

    The OP is one of the minority of Mordechai’s brethren Rashi mentions in his commentary to the last verse of the Megillah.

    #1063432

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Mordechai was a Religious Zionist.

    halevei all “religious zionists” should be on that level

    Rabbi Gifter also called himself a tzioni

    “v’zechesenah eineinu…b’tzion b’rachamim”

    #1063433

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think I remember hearing at least one medrash it wasnt that he didnt bow down, Its more he made a scene out of it. Like Haman would not have noticed some random person not bowing (I guess this medrash does not assume they knew each other before) but when he made a scene about it, he noticed

    #1063434

    DikDukDuck
    Participant

    So this is the infamous Joseph.

    Didn’t Haman have an idolatrous pendant or something that Mordechai didn’t want to bow down to? After all, it is better to die to live in the next world than to live to die in the next world.

    #1063435

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    lol @ Sam Klein: “What can you reply back to Hashem by replying back to this message.”

    This looks like one of those ridiculous Facebook posts I see all the time: “Only 1 in 10 people will repost this message. Show you care by posting it! If you don’t post this message to your status, it means you don’t care!”

    #1063436

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Two ????? at the end of ‘??? in :??????? ?”?. The ???? ?????? (quoting ?’ ???? ????; it can be found in ??? ? on page 76) is apparently going according to the ???? ????’s understanding of the second ???.

    #1063437

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The OP is one of the minority of Mordechai’s brethren Rashi mentions in his commentary to the last verse of the Megillah.

    How so? That Rashi, referring to the gemara in Megillah on 16b, says it was because he didn’t learn as much.

    The OP, as I pointed out, is just paraphrasing the Michtav Me’Eliyahu.

    #1063438

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    “Like Haman would not have noticed some random person not bowing “

    Maybe. But it’s been widely reported (on YWN http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/259251/rav-aharon-kotler-zatzal-truman-and-hirohito.html for example) that Rav Aharon Kotler was beaten to a pulp for not bowing to Hirohito. And remember that Mordechai would have been in a position of prominence as one of the Jewish leaders.

    #1063439

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charlie,

    You are of course aware that the OP was satirizing the YCT crowd, and the bloggers who are busy braying about dina demalchusa.

    Or like Shmuly Yanklowitz, who likely isn’t even halachacially Jewish.

    #1063440

    MDG
    Participant

    “Like Haman would not have noticed some random person not bowing”

    According to the pesukim, it seems that Haman did not notice Mordechai not bowing until others brought it to his attention.

    From the third perek:

    ? ??????????? ??????? ?????????, ??????-????????? ?????????–????????????: ???????? ?????? ??????, ??? ??????? ?????????. ? ???????, ????? (??????????) ?????? ???? ??????, ????? ??????, ????????; ???????????? ???????, ???????? ??????????? ???????? ??????????–????-??????? ?????, ??????-???? ????????. ? ???????? ?????–????-???? ??????????, ??????? ??????????????? ???; ??????????? ?????, ?????.

    #1063441

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    wasn’t haman really Mordechais servant from a sale… so he really didn’t have to bow down to haman. Does a master bow down to his servant? of course haman knew this & hated it but he knew this was the truth

    #1063442

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    sam klein,

    maybe thats the reason Haman wanted everyone to bow down to him (including mordechai)

    if a master bows to a slave thats proof he’s not his slave anymore, and thats why haman said all this isn’t worth it for me if mordechai doesnt bow down to me, because im still a slave and a slave has no possesions

    #1063443

    Yaakov
    Participant

    I don’t understand. Many Mfarshim give numerous reasons as to why Mordechai did not bow down (Haman had an idol, he was Haman’s master etc.). Also, Rashi in the Megilla clearly states that the Jews were being punished for going to and enjoying from King Achashverosh’s party! Obviously, the party was not something that the Jews should have gone to, and Mordechai telling them not to go was the right thing to do.

    #1063444

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Jack123

    Guess what?

    #1063445

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    Our Torah SUPERSEDES any law put into place by any govt. It would be ASSUR for us to do something which is Assur even if the govt says to do it. The same is the other way, if the govt disallows a commandment, we cant lean on dina d’malchusa.

    Don’t second guess chazal, our nevi’im, or any other gadol because that’s a BIGGER avayra than dina d’malchusa.

    #1063446

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Quite obviously, the OP agrees with Mark Levin, and wrote his post from the perspective of the people who opposed Mordechai as the story of the Megillah unfolded.

    Again, this idea is in Michtav M’Eliyahu, in the name of the Alter of Kelm.

Viewing 26 posts - 1 through 26 (of 26 total)
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