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  • #1268763

    bmyer
    Participant

    I’ve been talking to a lot of people about shidduchim recently and it it just seems that EVERYONE is just waay too picky. An idea was brought up that people should just go out more. The best way to get to know someone is to get to know them… I know some people double date or speed date not sure if those are good ideas maybe just say yes to going out without being sooo picky… Is there any way to get this done? Do you think this will even help? Why or why not?

    #1268812

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I am constantly second-guessing myself (and third-guessing, and fourth-guessing…) and I keep allowing myself to be brainwashed by society that I must be too picky if I’m single, so I keep rethinking about guys I said no to and forcing myself to look into them again and asking aitzah if I should really be saying no to them…. and you know what? I keep finding out that I really have good reasons for saying no, and when I ask aitzah, I am told not to go out with them. Or in some cases, I do go out and realize that I shouldn’t have.

    There may really be some people who are too picky. But there are other times when people are not too picky, and being single and saying no to all the crazy suggestions you get doesn’t necessarily mean you are too picky even though society thinks it does.

    One problem that I have found is that I try not to speak L”H, so I don’t tell people why I am saying no, so they make assumptions and assume I am too picky.

    That being said, there really may be some people who are too picky about things that really aren’t so important. I think this may be common with guys in particular. I don’t know what the solution is. I’m not against speed dating, but I don’t think it will solve the problem.

    I think that it would be good if there were more ways that singles (over a certain age) could meet casually, but I don’t think speed dating works so well. I think that maybe people should have over singles for Shabbos meals.

    #1268833

    Excellence
    Participant

    Depends on your previous life….

    If you were not up to scratch, the accusing angels interfere in your meeting your match next life. You need a lot of mercy. Torah learning does nothing. Anyone can read a book.

    You need to read the books of the Chofetz Chaim. Be smart.

    If you don’t badmouth anyone, THEY Above are not allowed to open their mouths to speak ill of you.

    And you need to impress the Court. Either a LOT of good deeds, which is nearly impossible to do secretly nowadays. Or keeping SILENT when someone verbally attacks you publically.

    Read the sifrei mussar — you don’t know what silence does for YOU when you don’t counter back.

    Unfortunately, inn your hot tempered, fast paced, American culture… you don’t find that easy.

    #1268852

    bmyer
    Participant

    What?!?

    #1268887

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There’s almost no such thing as “picky” when it comes to choosing someone to spend the rest of your life with.

    #1268888

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Does badmouthing American culture count?

    #1268896

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    One thing people do need to realize, however, is that there’s no such thing as a perfect match. Every marriage will have its issues, and any married person knows that there will have to be compromises. I’m not saying people should marry someone who’s bad for them, don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean at all to say that, but there’s no such thing as the perfect match.

    But in response to the OP, I think we need to reform the shadchan system, and make things more normalized.

    #1268930

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    It all depends what the pickiness is, why are they saying no. A person in shidduchim should have a good idea of what he/she is looking for, what is most important. And then stick to shidduchim that basically fit that overall picture, without nitpicking at the less important issues. If one can prioritize what is more important, non-negotiable and what is less important, but nice to have, then one can be focused without being picky.
    To go out randomly without any filtering of what is a good match and what is not, is not just a waste of time, but can lead to frustration and burn-out that can affect someone’s ability to find the right match.

    #1269244

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I think being picky comes from having too many choices, sometimes. For example, say a guy has a list of 30 girls. Say 20 sound more or less like what he is looking for. How to decide who to go out with? Probably not alphabetic order or order in which they were suggested. More likely pickiness will determine which ones get a no- this one’s name is unappealing, this one is too tall, this one has too many siblings, this one’s mother is not in the right profession, etc. If each potential shidduch could be evaluated on its own, without comparison to others, as if this was the only offer, maybe people would not be so picky?

    #1269468

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “Comparison is the thief of joy.” -Theodore Roosevelt

    #1269469

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t know if the topic at hand is older singles or younger singles, and perhaps the two should be evaluated separately. But when you are dealing with older singles, I think that a big part of the issue is that dating is very difficult. It is extremely draining physically and emotionally and it is very time-consuming and money – consuming (for girls as well as boys since they may have to spend a lot of money as well as time before the date in preparation).

    I have never understood people who say, “just give it one date; what’s the big deal?” Dating is a VERY BIG deal!!! At least if you are the type who takes each date seriously, which is the way that one should date, imho.

    And if you are an “older single”, chances are that you have already gone on at least 100 dates, and in some cases. over 500 dates. And you might not feel capable of going out on another 100-500 dates.

    That is why many people feel that they can’t just go out with anyone unless the person really sounds like someone they want to go out with. I think that is very reasonable. That is also why I think that it might be a good idea to have another method by which singles can meet each other.

    There definitely can be chesronos to other methods so they should not be used instead of the shidduch system, but only in addition to the shidduch system for those people who have already given the shidduch system a fair shot.

    #1269481

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If someone has a list of 30 girls to go out with, then why is it a problem if he is “picky” and compares them to each other? He can’t go out with all of them anyhow, so he has to say no to most of them.

    #1269644

    bmyer
    Participant

    LU: Is speed dating more or less draining as regular?

    #1269679

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    i’m not sure it is good or bad, just may be a source for what bmyer was describing in the OP.
    But think about it, say he rejects 15 of the good 20 for “picky” reasons. And then goes out with 5 but the dates do not work out. So now what does he do, does he go back to the rejects and find 5 more to go out with, can he evaluate them objectively when he has already rejected them, even if the reason was a bit arbitrary? Will he instead start collecting new names? but what if one of those 15 would have been a real good shidduch for him, maybe even his Bshert?
    All I can say, is I am glad that when I was dating, I never had such a long list of possibilities all at once. Whenever a shadchan would mention several possible names for me at once, I never took it as seriously or evaluated them as objectively as when I had one name to check out.

    #1269989

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Speed dating just allows you to meet more people and weed out potential first dates. In my experience, if you go to a speed dating event and meet 30 girls, you probably heard of/went out with 10-15 of the girls, you’ll say no to 10 girls, and then consider the remaining 5. The problem with these large speed dating events is that they are only helpful for the pretty girls who do really well in social settings. Basically, most of the guys will say yes to the same 5 pretty girls, and it’s a waste of time for everyone else. Part of this is that you can’t get to really know someone from speaking with them for 5-10 minutes, and it gets extremely rudimentary.

    For speed dating type events to work, there has to be fewer options available (8-10 boys/girls at an event), and do it with an activity, or maybe do it over a Shabbos meal so you can actually get to know someone outside of the first external impressions that the girls give off.

    #1270019

    misteryudi
    Participant

    False. My spouse and I are a perfect match.

    Also, what do you mean by “make things more normalized”?

    #1270029

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The type of event that works best shouldn’t be called speed dating, because there’s no dating involved.

    #1270106

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    1. When I wrote about people meeting in ways other than shidduchim, I didn’t necessarily mean speed-dating. The other options are a) single’s events that don’t involve speed-dating, & b) people having single boys and girls over for the same Shabbos meals. Of the above options, speed-dating are my least favorite, and I think they are the least effective.

    2. All three of these are way less draining than regular dating for the following reasons:

    a) They are social events, and therefore they are fun. I enjoy meeting people and seeing friends.
    It can be very hard for me to find time for dating. I know it’s very important, but so is supporting myself so I can have a roof over my head and food to eat. On the other hand, no matter how pressurred I am, I have to find some time for fun and socializing anyhow because I wouldn’t be able to function otherwise.

    b) With regular dating, you have to make a definite commitment that you will be at a certain place at a certain time. With most singles’ event, you don’t have to make a definite commitment. Even if you do, you can usually back at the last minute or at least come late.

    c) Even if you have to put the same money, time, and effort into it, you get to meet many people for the same amount of money, time, and effort.
    d) If it’s a Shabbos meal, it doesn’t take any time or effort, since that’s something you would be doing anyhow. And there is certainly nothing draining about it – it just makes for a more interesting Shabbos meal with more interesting conversations.

    #1270107

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    That being said, there definitely are some chesronos to singles’ events (and particularly speed-dating). The biggest pitfall is probably the one that Friendinflatbush pointed out – that it can lead to the guys (in particular, but perhaps the girls too) being more focused on chitzonius and to comparing girls.

    That is why I don’t think it should replace shidduchim but should only be used in addition to shidduchim for people who have already given shidduchim a fair shot. I don’t think it should be done too often, but if it’s done in moderation, I think it can be successful.

    I think that this problem is much more likely to occur with speed-dating. With Shabbos meals, it is the least likely to be a problem. For one thing, you can just have one or two girls over at a time. For another, when you are interacting with someone at a Shabbos meal for 1-3 hours you are more likely to be focused on their conversations than on their appearance.

    #1270108

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    One of the maalos of meeting someone outside of regular dating is that you can see what someone is like in real life. This is particularly true of Shabbos meals. You can learn a lot about someone by seeing the kinds of conversations he has at the Shabbos Seudah. You can also see how he interacts with other people in real life.

    #1270242

    TRUEBT
    Participant

    I agree. Shabbos meals with similarly aged members of the opposite sex is a good idea. However, I disagree about judging someone by the conversations at the Shabbos table. For instance, if I am at a Shabbos Seuda seated next to an Am Ha’aretz, I will probably discuss whatever he is interested in discussing (usually sports) . Maybe if I sat next to you, we could have a long heart to heart discussion about Klal Yud, Halacha Beis, rule Gimmel of the Chofetz Chaim. It takes two people to have a discussion.

    However, I don’t think Shabbos meals will solve the problem of pickiness. It will mitigate it by allowing the “rejectee” to avoid the pain of being rejected by a picky person.

    A big advantage of the Shabbos meals as a first date system is that there is no “research” before you meet the person for the first time. “Research” into potential shidduchim is a huge source of Lashon Hara. If a superficial person decides in the first 10 seconds that they don’t want to date someone based on appearance, it is hard to argue that there was “Toelles” in telling them Lashon Hara about the potential shidduch.

    #1270246

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You could do no-makeup speed dating with personality sorting beforehand.

    #1270248

    bmyer
    Participant

    “One of the maalos of meeting someone outside of regular dating is that you can see what someone is like in real life. This is particularly true of Shabbos meals.”
    LU: If you are at a shabbos meal to “meet” people you are not meeting them in “real life” as long as they know and you know it’s all just a show on a different playing field…

    #1270249

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    When going to a Shabbos seudah at a rabbi’s house, does a girl dress tzniusly like wearing flat shoes to look more plain, because it is at a rabbi’s house, or can she wear heels and look nicer for her age, because she is dressing with the intention to meet her beshert?

    Please please please respond… I’m torn here and don’t know what to do. I often err on the side of caution and go for a more plain modest look but then feel insecure and so fake because the majority of girls are dressed up and I feel like I am dressing up, or down, to be someone else. Like a false impression and restrained. At the same time, since this is a rabbi and rebbetzin that I never met before, I want to be respectful. Plus it is their home.

    Some rebbetzin’s wear nice heels and others don’t. What is best? Maybe wedges?

    Thank you 🙂

    #1270263

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Wear what you like. Be modest, but wear what you think looks nice.

    #1270265

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    LB, I hear where you are coming from. I think that the standard of dress should be ok no matter where you are or who you are with. If you are embarrassed to be that way in front of the Rav, then maybe it is not appropriate at any time. That said, tznius does not mean plain or nerdy. You are allowed to look nice, dress well, be fashionable, wear heels as long as the look you are giving is attractive but refined, and not provocative.
    In terms of heels vs flats, it probably depends on the woman’s height (and her husband’s) and whether she is comfortable contorting her feet.

    #1270268

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    BMYer – I wasn’t necessarily referring to a situation in which someone very b’dafka has specific boys and girls over in order for them to meet each other and they know it beforehand, and they feel like they are on a date. I know people who have a lot of singles over and don’t make a point of not having boys and girls at the same meals. So it’s not necessarily planned that those specific boys and girls are there together – they just happened to be the ones who called and asked to come that week.

    Also, I’m myself on dates in any case, and I hope by my age, everyone is. My point was that you’re not in real-life situations on a date.

    My comment was based on 2 maasim that happened to me. I’ll explain in another post.

    #1270269

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    BMYer & TrueBT – regarding my comment about seeing what people are like in real life based on their conversations:

    Maaseh #1: There was a certain guy who had been suggested to me many times. I had been told that he was very Torahdik, and he sounded like someone whom I would want to go out with. However, he always said no to me because of my age. I met someone who invited me to come sometime for a Shabbos meal, making the point that they often had single guys there. So I came one week and this guy was there.

    I was shocked by a story he told at the Shabbos table. It was the type of thing that would have been questionably border-line appropriate in singer-gender company not on Shabbos. Under the circumstances, it was definitely not appropriate. And it had nothing to do with who he was talking to, since he had no reason to tell this story. Also, I was 1/4 of the people he was talking to.

    #1270275

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maaseh #2: At a singles’ Oneg Shabbos one Friday night:

    I noticed that a certain guy’s conversations all revolved around movies and restaurants. I wouldn’t be likely to go out with someone who watches movies in the first place, but I might not rule it out, depending on various factors. For example, if it’s something he does on occasion because he needs an outlet as an older single boy. But if it’s so much a part of his life that it’s something that his conversations revolve around, and if he thinks it’s appropriate conversation for Shabbos, he is not for me. And the same with restaurants.

    And I hear your point, TrueBT, about depending whom you are talking to. But that did not seem to be what was going on here. He seemed to be choosing to talk about these things because they were important to him. And it wasn’t a kiruv Shabbaton.

    Also, personally, whomever I am talking to, I can usually manage to find Torahdik or at least important things to talk about that are suitable for that person’s wavelength.

    #1270276

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – if this is the way you normally dress and feel comfortable, and since it is considered appropriate and tznius by most people, and as you pointed out, many Rebbetzins dress that way, I think it would be appropriate for you to dress the way you usually do.

    #1270282

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you RebbYid LU,

    #1270283

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you!!! I appreciate the advice.

    I have to tell myself that it tznius is not nerdy or plain — I feel like I associate frumpy with frum but it’s not true. Then I feel resentful because I walk in all frumpy and even the most tznius rebbetzin looks so pretty and put together and I’m over here feeling forced to wear a potato sack and can’t wait to get home to change my outfit. Which makes tznius feel like oppression. It’s not like that though. So yay. I guess I am searching for balance.

    Okay so I am going to try something different this time and be more myself but still modest. Thank you 💖💖💖

    #1270410

    bmyer
    Participant

    LU I wasn’t disagreeing with that option just clarifying. Back to the original point of this thread is it possible for two nice jewish people who are holding in a similar place in yiddishkite and have similar hashkafas (i.e. yiras shomayim gadlus hatorah…) to go out with the INTENT of getting married? Not to see if you “click” or are “perfect together” ?
    Or maybe we have just been way too affected by western society and their portrayals of love, romance and..divorce…?

    #1270522

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    It is possible, and it is done in chassidish circles and to a somewhat lesser extent, in Israeli Chareidi Litvish circles. The parents check out extensively, in essence do the preliminary get-to-know you dating, so by the time the couple meets, they know that this can really be someone they can marry. There is no need for prolonged dating then. Amomg chassidim, 1-2 dates is enough, Litvish can get engaged after 5 or so.
    Of course western society has affected our views on dating/marriage.

    #1270527

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    On the other hand, I do agree with you that I think there may be people who just go out to see if they “fall in love with the guy/girl” right away, and they don’t give things enough of a chance. I

    But it is really hard to know what is going on in other peoples’ heads. And there really is no way of knowing why someone else is not married yet and what the real reason is that they keep saying no to people when there seems to be no reason for it. Maybe there is a reason for it that I or others are not aware of. Maybe they have some fear of marriage. Maybe they aren’t ready to get married yet for some reason. Maybe their priorities are wrong. Or maybe they just haven’t met the right person yet.

    #1270525

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    BMYer- I’m not sure if I completely get what you are asking. Can you clarify?

    In terms of going out with someone who has similar hashkafas, there are definitely other things that I need. I always tell shadchanim that personality is more important to me than hashkafa. I am beginning to question myself on that and to think that hashkafa is more important than I used to think, but I still think that personality is at least as important.

    #1270526

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “..to go out with the INTENT of getting married? Not to see if you “click” or are “perfect together” ?
    Or maybe we have just been way too affected by western society and their portrayals of love, romance and..divorce…?”

    I’m not sure who “we” are, and there are obviously many types of people. Personally, when I go out, I go out assuming that I will marry the guy (which is also why I don’t go out with everyone who is suggested). I do not go out waiting for lightning to strike or bells to ring or to see if I “fall in love at first sight” or something like that.

    I actually think that I have been brainwashed the other way, and that I was made to feel that I am just supposed to marry anyone and not care if I like him or not. As a result, I ended up letting myself get pressurred into going out with guys I couldn’t stand for 4-6 dates. I think that was a really bad idea! The guys in those cases usually were almost ready to get engaged and had no idea that I couldn’t stand them, and it wasn’t really fair to them. On my part, I ended up feeling used, and it made me hate dating.

    Over the years, I have come to realize that my approach to dating is wrong, and it does matter if you like the guy/girl and you shouldn’t let yourself get pressurred into continuing to date someone you can’t stand. It’s probably kidai to go out on a second date if you have no good reason not to, but not more than that.

    Another thing that I have come to realize is that if I don’t like the guy, there is usually a good reason for it even if it’s hard for me to put my finger on it. And as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten better at figuring out what it is. I think part of my problem was that I hate being judgmental.

    #1270558

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WTP – I’m not sure I agree – at least according to the way that I understood BMYer’s question. In Chassidish circles (and to some extent in the more Yeshivish circles, whether American or Israeli), since everything else was checked out beforehand, all they are looking for is to see if they “click”.

    I don’t know if that’s the same thing as saying “perfect together”. I think most people are just looking to see if they like each other and like talking to each other and feel like this is someone they can see themselves being married to. That is what I would call “clicking”, but maybe BMYer means something else.

    #1270608

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    i was not sure that I understood her either, so I focused on the dating with intent part- that people go into a date actually believing that this is the one they are going to marry, unless proven otherwise. That makes dating much more tachlis-oriented and not about dating until one sees stars and falls hopelessly in love while riding off into the sunet.
    Is that what you were referring to bmyer?

    #1270615

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s not about being “perfect together”. It’s about seeing if the personalities fit, and if they like each other. People should marry people they like. It’s not love, but it’s important in its own way. Scientifically, it makes perfect sense to be highly selective about choosing a mate. Especially for women.

    #1270773

    Mammele
    Participant

    LU: just a tidbit that you might appreciate. In your quest to find the more important aspect, Hashkafa vs. personality, realize that IMHO Hashkafa usually shapes one’s personality. So it’s really not an either or, but their Hashkafos (if honestly portrayed) will give you clues to their personality.

    A lot of it stems from working on one’s middos based on what he/she deems important. Again, honesty is key here.

    #1270830

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    RY – +1!

    #1270826

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Mammele – thanks so much for the “tidbit”. There is a lot of truth to that and I think that is a big part of the reason why I have started to consider hashkafic compatibility more important than I used to.

    #1270860

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    thanks for clarifying. I guess there are two different things: One is waiting to see stars and be head over heels and the other is feeling like you like this person and enjoy spending time with him/her and the idea of marrying him/her makes you happy and is not something to dread.

    #1271255

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Guess what? I just called a friend whom I haven’t spoken to in a while. It turns out that she is engaged, and guess how she met her chosson?! At a Shabbos seudah at someone’s house!!!

    #1271293

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Aww yay!!! <3 <3 <3 Case in point confirmed 🙂

    #1271868

    bmyer
    Participant

    It is possible, and it is done in chassidish circles and to a somewhat lesser extent, in Israeli Chareidi Litvish circles. The parents check out extensively, in essence do the preliminary get-to-know you dating, so by the time the couple meets, they know that this can really be someone they can marry. There is no need for prolonged dating then.

    Why is it not done in “our” circles? Why do we have the “need” for prolonged dating?

    #1271862

    bmyer
    Participant

    Sorry for not getting back earlier was busy the past few days…
    Part of the question was about people going out with the mindset that you’re going to marry THIS girl or guy. Most people do not fall in love at first site or even after ten dates (even if they think they do it’s not real love..contrary to the west’s’ opinion…) also being able to “stand” or “talk” to each other goes without saying but liking every single thing that he or she does or, that because you like the same food (insert any other example here) your marriage is going to be perfect. Marriage is not easy (huge understatement) it’s a work in progress, you get out what you put in…(insert cliche here). THEREFORE if you have similar hashkafas, are holding in similar places in life and understand that nobody is perfect then why not get married to him or her?
    ” I always tell shadchanim that personality is more important to me than hashkafa.”
    LU: Why? (unless that’s what you mean by personality)

    #1271901

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    bmyer, I am trying to understand what you asking now- are you asking whether it is essentially possible for a girl to marry just about anyone (who fits the basic picture hashkafically, etc), as long as she has the right attitude? That there is no point in extensive dating because the emotions that one expects to see aren’t real or important anyway? That since you will never be 100% happy with everything about the guy, that it doesn’t really matter who the guy is, as long as you are prepared to live with his faults and make the marriage work?

    Perhaps there are those who approach marriage in this way, I even read a dating advise book along those lines, but i personally can’t accept that. Marriage is supposed to be about uniting 2 halves of a neshama. I think when people talk about “just knowing he was right” they mean that their neshamos connected, not that they fell in love. One needs a lot of siyata dishmaya to find her/his other half, so a lot of davening is necessary.

    #1271910

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    It’s a good question. It may have to do with the homogeneity and insularity of certain communities.
    It may have to do with the parent-child relationship- how well does the parent know his/her child and what he/she needs in a spouse? How much is the child like the parent? how much does the child trust the parents and rely on their judgment to identify his/her B’shert.
    I think the prolonged dating comes in to play when the single is relying more on his/her own judgement than his parents’.

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