June 6, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2196812lakewhutParticipant
Most people associate the word Toeiva with alternative lifestyles and yes that’s understandable but unscrupulous businesses practices are also called Toeiva. Sometimes Baalei Tzedakkah fall into the latter category yet they get praised. Why is this so?June 6, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2196847akupermaParticipant
1. Those who engage in unethical and illegal business practices have a feeling of shame and do everything they can to conceal such activities.
2. The LGBTQ community not only lacks of sense of shame, and is open about their activities, but actively tries to convert others to their lifestyle, and resorts to coercion to gain recruits and punish those who oppose them.June 6, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2196849
Because there is nothing wrong with honoring mediocre people. What is your problem if someone gets a bit of praise?June 6, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2196854
rhetorical question?June 6, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2196855
Lake – we shouldn’t praise any reshoim.
But a mechalel shabos, or a ganav, or even a rotzeach, has not distorter and contorted the tzelem elokim and natural creative state of man. Man has vices and evil urges. But homosexuality is inherently evil, a corruption of the very essence of a person. It isn’t unchecked anger, greed or lust, which have a kosher flip side.
Rav moshe writes, while beijg sympathetic to one who has undesired attraction to men, that it is “lehacis,” and just evil on its own.
It is the opposite of what Hashem programmed the world to function with. It is not a miscalculated middah, it is evil incarnate.
But one who has such an urge and doesn’t sin, is kodesh kedoshim, holier than most people can imagine. It is a great lofty level to rise above such a desire and not sin.June 6, 2023 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #2196862Reb EliezerParticipant
My rebbi said to make zahav tahor, pure gold. Everyone judges accoding to what they see.June 6, 2023 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #2196868Reb ShlomoParticipant
People forget that the same Ribono Shel Olam who gave us the mitzvos beyn Adam La Makom also gave us the mitzvos beyn Adam La Chavero. But somehow a heter is always found to be lenient with the latter, especially when Mosdos are involved.June 6, 2023 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2196920
Keep in mind that the first toeiva is a capital crime where the perpetrator is put to death, whereas the second toeiva the perpetrator has to pay a monetary fine to his victim.June 6, 2023 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #2196926☕️coffee addictParticipant
I like akuperma’s replyJune 6, 2023 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2196959
A few points on this:
When the Torah uses the word Toevah in reference to the lifestyle, it only refers to men. Women have a separate issur. The main difference is that for women I don’t believe there is a death penalty, and it’s definitely not yehareg v’al yaavor.
Aveirah says that being mechalel Shabbos doesn’t go against the essence of a person. True, because Shabbos isn’t something that relates to a person. But it does relate to creation. We say in Friday night’s davening that Shabbos is the tachlis of creation. The entire creation relies on Shabbos – I’d say that violating it would go against the normal fabric of things, just as homosexuality does.
The world was built on truth. I’m sure we all know it says that Emes is the foundation. Cheating in business is the opposite of that. Again, it’s something that goes against the very essence of the world and creation.June 6, 2023 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2196975doom777Participant
First, “Elokeihem shel elu sone zima hu”. Meaning sexual based offenses are considered especially heinous, even if the word “toeva” is used for both.
Second, there are no “unscrupulous business practices” parades, no “unscrupulous business practice pride month”, and unscrupulous business people are not trying to turn the entire world “unscrupulous business practice.
In relation to previous point, it’s the difference between leteavon, and lehach’iisJune 6, 2023 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2196985maskildoreshParticipant
There’s a lot to talk about here . Just one point.
When someone gives a lot if Tzedoka and is honored for it, his identity as a Baal Tzedoka is being honored. That’s the paradigm . If he has a personal shortcoming in another area it’s not relevant . If he is widely known to be openly unethical etc this wouldn’t apply, but mosdos usually avoid that.
When someone IDENTIFIES with their Toeiva identity , that’s a different story entirely. They identify as a poster-child to make a statement to promulgate an Aveira.June 6, 2023 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2196989simcha613Participant
It’s also interesting that the Torah doesn’t call the LGBT person a toeivah, it calls the act a toeivah. But when it comes to dishonest business practices, the Torah calls the person himself a toeivahJune 7, 2023 6:18 am at 6:18 am #2197040jdbParticipant
Because we live in the era before Moshiach where we are all confused. We live in a community where politics, power and money are highly valued. As such, we are heavily influenced by the political narrative, even when it isn’t the same as the Torah narrative.
For example, al pi Torah we should celebrate the tsadikim who have SSA and choose to remain celebate their entire lives. I have heard this statement from major rabbanim. But so many shul and community rabbanim will have no problem standing up at a kiddush and going off on the LGBT community, with no regard for those who are in the closet and shomrei Torah.
We need to double and triple down on our sensitivity towards Torah values. Stop listening to political shows and focus on limud Torah and ahavas chinam.
We believe in teshuva. For everyone. Even those who commit financial crimes.June 7, 2023 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #2197543
“or even a rotzeach, has not distorted and contorted the tzelem elokim and natural creative state of man.”
The once tzelem elokim is now a corpse. Murder is “inherently evil, a corruption of the very essence of the person.”June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197586
jdb, where did you hear such things from? That we should celebrate “tzaddikim” who remain celibate their whole lives? What about the mitzvah of Pru u’rvu? The fact that if you don’t have children for 10 years then you can divorce your wife?
And celebrate people on SSA? Seriously? I’d love to know which “major Rabbonim” you heard this from.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197594
Nom, there are times murder is a mitzvah; the desire to kill or be violent is not intrinsically evil, as it has a holy manifestation.June 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197652
Yes, a million percent. Not everyone can do everything. Some people can’t even spend ten hours straight over a Gemara!June 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197672
The thiefs should be thrown out shul not be given the mizrach vantJune 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197681
Da, he’s actually correct. Rav aharon Feldman writes a lot of praise for people with unwanted SSA who live celibate lives devoted to the klal.
He says that they are patur from mitzvas pru urvu, as they are onsim; they cannot in their current state have a family, and if they try without developing at least some interest in women, it will be a disaster.
So yes, a man who does not submit to his urges and certainly does not identify with the open brazen sinners of the world, is a yzadik vekadosh.June 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197683doom777Participant
Most people can’t spend ten hours straight over a GemaraJune 7, 2023 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #2197760
Doom, maybe not at first, but Hashem intended all of us to be bnei Torah, even those with ADHD, etc..
When i first started learning, i was 17, and couldn’t handle more than like 30 minutes.
Imagine if someone(and there were) convinced me that I wasn’t cut out for learning, and i would have just gone to college(which these people always seem to have patience for…)
I would have been a hollow ignoramusJune 8, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2197903
Just take back murder. This is not a reason to redefine the Torah’s definition of murder. How do you not realize your talking about retzicha?!?June 9, 2023 12:35 am at 12:35 am #2198203Avi KParticipant
Akuperma, do they really? A certain financial criminal is not only unrepentant but is being lionized as a miracle worker. Many others who are not caught are proud of fooling the government. They think that they are really smart.
Avira, there are two types: one who only has SSA and another who also has a normal side. In fact, a certain religious Israeli singer announced that he has SSA but is married, has children and is completely loyal to his wife. Rav Shmuel Eliahu said that he should be given full shul honors. See Pirkei Avot 4,1.June 9, 2023 1:06 am at 1:06 am #2198220
There’s a reason why for averos bein odom lechavero, the rambam says that a sinner needs to confess publicly for it to be optimal teshuva… But for mitzvos between a person and Hashem, the repentant man should not confess publicly due to the chilul Hashem.
This is because it’s understood that gezel and other sins are part of, sadly, society; sinning against man is not the same level of rebellion as sinning against Hashem, even though of course all averos are against Hashem, it isn’t as clear when someone steals etcJune 9, 2023 8:10 am at 8:10 am #2198228
My apologies for my last point – I misunderstood what SSA stood for. Once I realized, I fully agree with what was said.
I’ve been dealing with helping a relative apply for disability benefits, and I’ve seen SSA printed in letters way too much lately, referring to Social Security. I thought it meant someone living on government benefits, learning all day without working at all, relying on the government to support him, and not wanting a family so that it wouldn’t interfere with his learning.
Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.June 9, 2023 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2198253
It also took me a few minutes to figure it out.
If someone qualifies for SSA and learns all day, that is an older retired person. Kudos to him!June 9, 2023 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2198265Avi KParticipant
Avira, as with everything else, a person must use the fifth section of the Shulchan Aruch. If the victim does not know about it (e.g. someone said lashon hara about him), forgot about it, or would be embarrassed by it being recalled, one should not talk about it. The idea is to fix the harm that was done to him.June 9, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2198308
Avi – agreed that you’re not supposed to tell a person if no harm was done, the chofetz Chaim writes that.
But confession isn’t only about making amends to the aggrieved party; vidui, to Hashem and publicly, is part of teshuva according to the rambam.June 9, 2023 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #2198324
No one is bothered by people who have SSA but never act upon that attraction, never advertise that attraction, never publicly discuss that attraction. The idea that anyone holds anything against anyone else who has SSA is a fig leaf, red herring and strawman.
The issue, and only issue, is those who any upon said attraction. Or parade it. Or try to normalize it.June 9, 2023 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #2198357
When organizations like Tzedek and Aleph glorify these crooks it make me sick, there is nothing honorable about running a Ponzi scam and ripping off people, these crooks were in jail for a reason.June 9, 2023 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2198377
Joseph, I agree that nobody SHOULD be bothered by it. Sadly, there are those out there who are, and mistreat people for it.
I heard one person say that he went to his Rosh Yeshiva and tell him he had these urges, and asked for help. The RY yelled at him and called him terrible names, then kicked him out of the yeshiva.
That is the kind of attitude that just drives these people completely off.June 9, 2023 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #2198414
DaMoshe: How would anyone even know someone else has SSA if that person doesn’t act upon it, doesn’t advertise it and doesn’t parade it?
The example you gave only applies to the very very limited examples of someone like a therapist or religious leader who he privately confides to while seeking help in not acting upon his SSA.June 9, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2198430
Avira > Imagine if someone(and there were) convinced me that I wasn’t cut out for learning, and i would have just gone to college
So, then by now, you will work for 10 hours a day and spent the rest of the day in learning. Your middos would be also better because you’d learn some manners, as when you are talking inappropriately in business, you tend to lose customers. I am puzzled how so many hours of learning did not have similar effect – up to now, at least. Maybe it is an indicator that a system of learning by hours of Gemoras not always affects the person, despite the promise of lo lishma not leading to lishma. Please note, this is not personal.
editedJune 12, 2023 12:37 am at 12:37 am #2198755
Cute theory. It didn’t convince me an iota.June 12, 2023 6:26 am at 6:26 am #2198806
Nom, so all the working amei haaretz have impeccable manners?
All the working people who attend nightly talmud readings are baalei middos?
Huh?June 12, 2023 9:05 am at 9:05 am #2198847
Joseph, sometimes it’s not hard to figure out. A guy who is single, maybe getting older, never been on a date in his life… for his friends, it’s not difficult to realize something is going on.June 12, 2023 9:07 am at 9:07 am #2198848
The Mishna first says Derech Eretz and then says Melacha. So maybe the poster means to say that anyone who has a career has no understanding on the world and projects all kind of weirdness onto learning guys.
Yeah, he probably meant something like that.June 12, 2023 10:03 am at 10:03 am #2198883
DaMoshe: In the example you just gave, if the person never says anything, never discusses the issue and doesn’t utter a word to people about it, it is very highly unlikely anyone else will say anything to him.June 12, 2023 11:41 am at 11:41 am #2198936
Avira > so all the working amei haaretz have impeccable manners?
I was pondering the same question. hillel in Avos 2:6 is pretty sure that bor is not yere het and am haaretz is not chasid, a shy person can not learn and an angry person can not teach (my kids had a question on the latter – so how do we call angry teachers!?), but then a strange expression (my translation) “_not everyone_ who increases in selling becomes wiser”. It does not say – “a businessman can not be wise”. So, this seems to be saying – as you do – that while it is reasonable to presume that engaging in business will make one smarter, it is not always, especially of you overdo it. Unless, Hillel is using this for irony to mock those who think that selling is beneficial, and it went over my head. As a reference, Alter from Novordok would teach his students chochma in addition to mussar – “someone who can not buy a wagon of wood without being swindled must be lacking in his ruchniyous also”, referring to Rivka and Eliezer’s camels.
I also did not mean this as a general statement, but specifically for your situation and what you are lacking. Also, most modern jobs are close to trades than business and that is what I recommend (even as I am nominally in business, most of my day is spent on tradecraft rather than running the business). Yitzele Peterburger married his son to a daughter of a craftsman and people were appalled. He replied – if he were to mayy into a shopkeeper who possibly swindled a lot of people, this would be ok, but somehow a person whom Hashem loves for earning his bread honestly is not ok … Not sure whether this was in Yerushalaim or Kovno. And no mention of marrying into a rabbinical family either ;).June 12, 2023 11:41 am at 11:41 am #2198941
> Cute theory. It didn’t convince me an iota.
what Rabban Gamliel is too outdated?June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2199029
That people today are insane enough to think that learning gemara ten hours a day would lend itself to one with bad manners.
I knew it was satire.
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