Morid haTal

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  • #1846902
    funnybone
    Participant

    When will nusach Sefa’er begin to say morid haTal?

    #1846930
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Morid Hatal, since no announcement are made, will be the same as the ashkanezim who will stop saying mashiv
    haruach by mincha of the first day Pesach. Vesen Berocho will start motzei shabbos after that.

    #1846924

    Musaf first day of yom tov.

    #1846947
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See MB O’CH 114 s’k 3.

    #1846956
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Those who say Morid Hatal start saying it at musaf, as normal.

    For those who don’t normally say it, the question is when to stop saying Mashiv Horuach. R Hershel Schachter has paskened that on musaf of the first day of Pesach they should say Morid Hatal, even though that is not their usual minhag. At mincha they should start their normal summer minhag of not saying anything.

    #1847023
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, why if there is no announcement? SA O’CH 114,1 provided there is an announcement as in MB s’k 3.

    #1847031
    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    Do we say TEFILAS TAL quietly ourselves after Mussaf or not say it?

    #1847070

    Reb Eliezer: since we are not in shul there is no announcement. so say to your family members remember to say morid hatal before musaf.

    #1847245
    AhvasChinom
    Participant

    There is no gabbai to make a hachraza, but by saying Morid haTal for Musaf even for those in Chutz laAretz who daven Nusach Ashkenaz and generally do not say it during the summer, you avoid the safek of having to go back, since we generally hold that if you mazkir Tal at any time, you do not have to repeat. – To GRATEFULBLAC If you are saying Morid haTal and IF you do want to say the main part of Tefilas Tal, from “ Tal tein,” la-aniyas da-ati, it would seem to make sense to say it k’minhag haGaon, i.e., after Ashrei, before Musaf, but speak with your rav beforehand.

    #1847254
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Ashkenezim who do not say it always start by mincha as you cannot make a negative announcement. By Musaf we still say morid hageshem.

    #1847266
    Milhouse
    Participant

    R Schachter’s psak is on yutorah.org. I’m just reporting it, not saying you have to follow it.

    For what it’s worth, I disagree with his psak about saying Hallel after Maariv on the seder nights. He paskens that even those who usually say it should not do so when davening biy’chidus, or even when davening with a home minyan all of whom will be at the seder. It seems to me otherwise, and I will be saying it, even though it looks like I will be completely alone both for maariv and for the sedorim.

    #1847290
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The RMA says not to say Halel, so beyichudis there is no publicity.

    #1847307
    Milhouse
    Participant

    The RMA records the minhag Ashkenaz not to say hallel after maariv at all. Obviously those who follow that minhag every year will do so this year as well. But what has that got to do with those who do say it every year, in shul? Where do you get the idea that the RMA would tell them not to say it this year, at home? R Shachter paskens that way. I don’t think he is correct, and I intend to say it. He links it to publicity, but it has nothing to do with that. The reason is because of the bracha, and that consideration applies just as much this year as any year.

    #1847309

    Reb Ellezer, you wrote: “Ashkenezim who do not say it always start by mincha as you cannot make a negative announcement. By Musaf we still say morid hageshem.”

    The OP specifically asked about nusach sefard.

    millhouse: My LOR, whose shul says hallel both nights with a brocha pakened to say hallel without a brocha.

    #1847375
    Milhouse
    Participant

    LYT, if you’re not going to say the bracha you may as well not say it at all. The whole point of saying it is in order to be able to say the bracha. The price you pay for that is that you are yotzei the mitzvah in a way that is not as Chazal instituted it, and by the time you repeat it properly you have already been yotzei. If you say it without a bracha then you have the worst of both worlds — nimtza kereach mikan umikan!

    #1847599
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Millhouse: Another Rov in my nieghborhood paskened like my LOR. Here is what he wrote to his kehilla
    “If one has the minhag of saying Hallel on the first two nights of yom tov after ma’ariv, one can certainly do so without a bracha. If one is generally loyal to chasidisheh minhagim wherein the saying of hallel is not just for pirsumei nisa but also represents inyanei kabala then there is room for saying it with a bracha as well. ”
    I grew up in a Young Israel (ashkenaz) that said hallel both nights so I cant say t’s because of Inyanei Kabala. I hope you wont mind if I follow my LOR and the other rabbanim in my neighborhood.

    #1847874
    Milhouse
    Participant

    People seem not to understand why hallel is said in shul (by those who say it), and why it is not said by those who don’t. I alluded to this earlier; now let me explain in detail.

    Hallel is a mitzvah derabbanan, and the way Chazal instituted for it to be said normally is standing, and without interruption. Like any mitzvah derabbanan we say a bracha before it, asher kid’shonu bemitzvosov vetzivonu. On Pesach night, however, Chazal instituted that it be said sitting, at the seder, and in two separate sections with a long interruption between them. Bedieved one is yotzei if one says it in the normal fashion, but one is not doing the mitzvah as it is supposed to be done.

    However there is a three-way machlokes about the brocho. Some rishonim hold that we should say a brocha before starting the first section of hallel, just as we always do. The interruption doesn’t matter, because that is how the mitzvah is supposed to be done this time. Other rishonim hold that we say the brocha twice, once before each section, since the mitzvah tonight is to say it in two sections. And other rishonim hold that since there is this interruption we do not say a brocha at all.

    In practice we pasken that sofek brochos lehokel, and therefore we don’t say the brocha. But that means that according to the first two opinions we are missing something that we should be doing. Therefore the minhag arose in Sefarad, and was later adopted by chassidim, to say hallel after maariv, the regular way, even though that is not the way it’s supposed to be done, in order to say the brocha. Then we go home and do it again properly.

    However this has a big down side. When we come to say Hallel properly we have already been yotzei the mitzvah, so we cannot now fulfill it properly as it was instituted. It’s the same issue as saying krias shma before davening, without the brochos. We are advised in that case to say it on condition, that if we will get to krias shma in davening before the zman then we now have intention davka not to be yotzei. But with the Pesach hallel there is nothing for such a condition to apply to. There is nothing that will either happen or not happen, on which we can condition our intent to be yotzei. Therefore minhag Ashkenaz is davka not to say this hallel, sacrificing the opportunity to say the brocha in order to be able to be yotzei the mitzvah in the proper manner. Minhag Sefarad makes the opposite sacrifice.

    According to this reasoning, if you say the hallel after davening without a brocha you are nimtza kereach mikan umikan. You aren’t doing the mitzvah ketikunah, and you aren’t gaining the brocha. So what have you achieved?

    #1850610
    Beast of a dude
    Participant

    i remebered to say morid hatal

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